Please Shut Up if you say SL is not a game.

I have not read the whole thread, but am familiar with the arguments, because I speak to them so often in SL. Here's how I say it. SL is a game, and more than a game. SL is a playground.

Like a casino, you go to SL to play whatever games you want to play. Like a casino, SL provides many other forms of entertainment that are not games. Unlike a casino, players can play games that SL does not explicitly provide. Kids on a school playground can play any game they know the rules for and bring the equipment for, as long as the teachers allow it. Players can provide non-game content, just as kids can do things that aren't games during recess.

I am using the definition of game from Raph Koster's book, _A Theory of Fun for Game Design_. A game is a structure providing guided opportunities to learn and master tasks, rewarding the player with that endorphin rush that comes, not from winning necessarily, but from mastering something. That's one reason why games get boring after awhile - nothing more to learn. The foregoing isn't a quote - I use that book so much that it keeps getting misplaced.

I wince every time someone says that SL is 'just a game.' That implies that games are unimportant. Games are vital. They help kids of all ages learn. Psychological/physiological studies have shown that people who keep playing games are less liikely to succumb to Altsheimers and similar effects of age, an important consideration at my age. Learning keeps us alive and games are a really fun way to learn.

Koster is chief creative officer of Sierra, which has been making games I like for various platforms for a long time. The book is talking about the study of games and about the philosophy of games. It goes deep and is a fast read, with cartoons every other page. It has a very good list of references to games, computer games, physical, psychological and logical concepts related to games, and other fun things. If you're designing any kind of game or game-like activity, you want to read it. If you're in SL, you probably want to read it.

From his book I conclude the following about SL. Koster defines nine sorts of activity in any field, including games. SL provides opportunities to participate in all nine. I am playing 'design, implement and test a unique RPG that can be played and implemented in several ways, including offline.' Koster says that game design can be an art, an unusual art in that a specific reaction is required - those experiencing the art want to have fun. Koster wants his games to be good art. I hope mine will be. I think SL is good art, and that several of the games and non-games provided by the players are good art.

There is much in SL that can be improved, some by the Lindens, some by us. Nevertheless, let none of us forget that we are creating and living in a unique art form. Let us be proud! And above all, let's have lots of fun.

If you are interested in discussing Koster's book and similar concepts, or in RPG design, or in learning more about how to find the fun in SL, or in how to provide content in SL that's more fun, get in touch with me online. I'm a Linden instructor and want to provide classes on this stuff. I'd love to lead regular discussions on it.

Theres also nothing wrong with correcting people when they say its just a platform.

It is in fact a game to me. What you use it for defines it for you.

You try again. Its a game to me and you can keep shouting its not but you'll still never be right by the definition I use.

Someones got it! Enjoy your day, David.

Its pretty straightforward to me..but then the definition of 'platform' is a very vague one.

BZZT wrong, try again. I go by the definition and my experiences. It's a game to me, but you enjoy your tool/platform/toy.

Yay! Another bright one.

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Second Life is a "GAME"???

the GAME people are playing is SEMANTICS GYMNASTICS

like rewriting and redefining a word to justify their particular agenda and addictions

drug addicts do that ... its called Drug Logic

obviously some Second Life Addicts need their own Twisted Logic too

calling Second Life a game is nothing more than
SIMPLISTIC UBONIC LINGUISTIC JEDI MIND TRICK RHETORIC


yea ... Myst is a GAME ... Enter the Matrix is a GAME ...

and afterall, Drug Dealers call what they do a GAME
Cops call catching Drug Dealers a GAME


so why not carry it furthur?

Gangbangers call what they do a GAME
does Al Qaida call what they do a GAME
Politics, Corruption, and Government Spying is a GAME

you can call any thing a GAME, if youre freaking desparate enuf


by contrast ... they also say that

the GAME of Football is useful in LIFE
that practicing and improving your Golf-Swing is learning lessons in LIFE


Second Life, a GAME?

It's a GAME just because someone said there is some
mythical and ephemeral GOAL at the end of it?

Dungeons & Dragons is a GAME ... Ultima Underworld is a GAME

Second Life, you're no GAME ...
you may be other things, (some good, some bad, and some amazing things too),
but youre no GAME

however, people on Second Life "PLAY GAMES"


so, while one is at the dictionary looking up the word GAME,
in hopes to make it, and Second Life mean something it isnt ...

also look up the words, METAPHOR & DELUSIONAL -_o




*´¨`·.¸.·*Arsenic

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Jonas-

"subjective opinions" are bad "definitions."

Whatever SecondLife is "defined" as should be true of the whole.
(and not be limited to just a part or a perspective)

We don't all look through your eyes.


Unless you want to be defined by my perception of you... ?

The only reason you think it is a game is because you grief everyone you see, perhaps if you took a moment to fathom the big picture you would see that to some it is a game, to others a business oportunity, and perhaps even just a meeting place. I know people who have found their true loves in this "game". I myself make some money but yet still enjoy Secondlife, I don't think of secondlife as a game but I know it is very fun. I love to script, I love to code irl, programming something is not thought of as a game but it can be very fun.. But if it's fun can it be considered a game?

The American Heritage Dictionary is not a very good dictionary in my experience. That is not to say the quoted definition is wrong, but you have used a limited version of the defintion.



Main Entry: game
Pronunciation: 'gAm
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English gamen; akin to Old High German gaman amusement

1 a (1) : activity engaged in for diversion or amusement : PLAY (2) : the equipment for a game b : often derisive or mocking jesting : FUN, SPORT <make game of a nervous player>

2 a : a procedure or strategy for gaining an end : TACTIC b : an illegal or shady scheme or maneuver : RACKET

3 a (1) : a physical or mental competition conducted according to rules with the participants in direct opposition to each other (2) : a division of a larger contest (3) : the number of points necessary to win (4) : points scored in certain card games (as in all fours) by a player whose cards count up the highest (5) : the manner of playing in a contest (6) : the set of rules governing a game (7) : a particular aspect or phase of play in a game or sport <a football team's kicking game> b plural : organized athletics c (1) : a field of gainful activity : LINE <the newspaper game> (2) : any activity undertaken or regarded as a contest involving rivalry, strategy, or struggle <the dating game> <the game of politics>; also : the course or period of such an activity <got into aviation early in the game> (3) : area of expertise : SPECIALTY 3 <comedy is not my game>

4 a (1) : animals under pursuit or taken in hunting; especially : wild animals hunted for sport or food (2) : the flesh of game animals b archaic : PLUCK c : a target or object especially of ridicule or attack -- often used in the phrase fair game
synonym see FUN

game·like /-lIk/ adjective

Source: http://merriam-webster.com/


1 a (1) : activity engaged in for diversion or amusement

Now, this states that the activity engaged in is the game. Second Life is not an activity, it is a platform that allows for activities to take place. The activities you engage in inside Second Life are the activities that may fall under the definition of game. We come to the conclusion that Second Life is not a game but facilitates activities that may be considered gamelike. This allows for one person to view all activities in Second Life to be gamelike while others may view them other ways. The definition in now way transfers itself to the platform in which these activities take place.

I believe your definition of Second Life as a game relies on 1 a (2)

1 a (2) : the equipment for a game

Second Life is the platform or equipment required for your ad-hoc game. In that sense you could call Second Life a game, but that defniition just gives you free reign to define anything you want as a game.

With this loose definition of game one could co-opt anything one uses for gamelike activities and define it as a game. I believe this defeats the purpose of defining Second Life as a game, because the way in which you must twist the definition in order to define it as a game makes the word "GAME" meaningless.

In that way all you have said when you call Second Life a game is, "I use Second Life for gamelike activities." This confuses anyone who has not taken the time to dissect your meaning, and leads them to a false premise that Second Life itself is a game in which there are well defined rulesets and specified goals that define competition as defined under 3 a (1).

Brilliantly argued. Precisely my point, to a 'T'.



Your response effortlessly demonstrates one of the big problems with respect to Second Life and its use as the social medium Linden Labs intended to create.

Because it uses game technology, and is marketed largely to the same demographic that plays online games, many people mistakenly ask not "Wow, this is an amazing environment - whom can I meet here, what can I make and what things are there to do?" but the vastly more short-sighted question, "Where do I get the weapons, and whom do I shoot?" Hence the need for better education about the terms of service, and the Abuse Report system.

Since when is it impossible to have a game without an objective? SL is a game and you make your OWN OBJECTIVE! Whether it be to own land, build a house, open a store, grief and annoy the heck out of people, host a party, or ANYTHING else, you have an objective and there doesnt HAVE to be a winner. Sorry guys, but SL is a game.. Its other things as well, but its also a game.. Its social networking, its instant messaging, its educational, etc. etc. etc., but it IS A GAME.

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ive heard numerous interviews in the Welcome Areas
by Linden/SL Reps interviewing and discussing
life on Second Life with other members ...

in each interview the Linden/SL interviewer referred to SL as a "GAME"

maybe the problem rests with them,
that since SL calls Second Life a GAME,
it thereby validates the contentions of those who also call it that.



*´¨`·.¸.·*Arsenic


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I just went back and read your previous response, and I must agree that we seem to see things the same way.

I'll refer back to Philip Rosedale here on these forums.
/139/65/98819/1.html#post978622/139/65/98819/1.html#post978622

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thank you Baba Yamamoto ...

for that remarkable entry ...


perhaps the other Representatives of Second Life & Linden Labs
as well as some members here should all get on the same page!





*´¨`·.¸.·*Arsenic

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This doesn't have anything to do with that Heaven's Gate group, does it?

This "new version of the world", does that mean a new version of the SL virtual world, or does this refer to altering the laws of physics, warping the fabric of spacetime, reversing the arrow of time, pulling a rabbit out of the hat, and such stuff as that?

The part to keep in mind is the Bold text. People do make money from WoW. BUT.... the company (blizzard) didnt intend on that happening. In WoW, you do NOT own the rights to what you create. In SL, you DO own the rights to what you create.

I can use any scripts, textures, or characters I make in SL as part of a portfolio and say "Yes, this is mine". Try it with a character, weapon or whatever from WoW and you'd be stealing. You do NOT legally own anything in Warcraft. It remains the intellectual property of the company.

In the meantime- Game, Platform, Tool, Social Networking Tool, or whatever you call it, SL is all these & more. It's only limited by what your lil' synapses can come up with. I find it funny how people MUST have something categorized as something in order to validate some strange logic.

From: http://web.archive.org/web/20040404133352/secondlife.com/support/faq.php



It is not so hard to consider SL a game, once you have accepted the fact that RL is a game also.

NOTE: All quotes are taken out of context for the sole purpose of rendering a specific idea regardless of their original meaning or intent.

Wow this discussion could have been so much easier by saying "SL is what u want it to be".

Some might want to refer to it as game, some might want to refer to it as "their Second Life" or anything else. But no matter what u call SL or how you feel about it, just respect other people's thoughts and feelings about SL. Personally i think that the way someone describes SL says a lot about how much they want to involve their own (real/first) life and personality into SL.

By starting a post with this title and basically all his comments in his own thread so far the only thing i have learned from this thread and more specifically about the maker is that he does not respect other opinions then his own. Fair enough but then you should ask yourself why u are posting on a discussion forum if you don't care about other opinions. It makes you look like a troll no matter what you say.

Too easy. Not enough drama ;0

It's a cheese sandwich to me, and you can keep shouting it's not but you'll still never be right by the definition I use.

look its pretty simple, a game is a diversion, or a form of entertainment. It does NOT have to be a competition. It is a distraction that you CHOOSE to act on because you want that fulfillment of entertainment.

Ask yourselves (and I know everyone is stubborn here, actually to be honest, the adult community is a lot more stubborn than a teenager's community):

- if and when you log off the game, do you feel like any less of a person when you come back?
- if you had no money and had to choose, live in a cardboard box, and keep your house in SL, or live in a decent house, and lose SL, which would you choose?
- If something happened to your family, friends, in real life, but you had something important going on in SL, would you rush over to your family/friends or tell them to wait. If you come back is your character forever hurt in any way?
- When you log on do you feel the need to sell things for your SURVIVAL in second life?
- Do you ever feel that it is impossible to log out of second life, for whatever reason, beause in game you are doing something? (and I mean important stuff like going to the emergency room, having an arguement with your husband/wife, etc etc).
- Have you ever had a problem leaving SL then coming back and feeling genuinely weakened because you weren't online the entire time?


If you answer no to those questions (which I am sure most of you do, as I can't see how you could put SL ahead of your RL family and their welfare), then you are openly admitting that SL is a form of entertainment, something you can pick up, put down whenever you like because you need to take care of something more important. If you were building something, if you have a shop, whatever you are doing, you can leave the computer, come back 1 hour later, and do it all over again. It is a place that you can put on hold whenever you wish, and only dive into if you truly want to enter. It is DEFINATELY a game. I have played MANY video games, and there is not ONE quality of SL that a game has not touched on. One perfect example is The Sims Online, possibly the closest candidate for comparison, TSO is DEFINATELY a game, However the goals and direction of the game is identical to that of second life. Second life is more complex yes, with the scripting, and character customization and structure, but that doesn't negate it from being a game. Buying/Selling on a market place, of your own creations is NOT new to games. Every, and I mean EVERY MMORPG in existance has a buying/selling marketplace. I fail to see how the ability to buy/sell and set up shop (except at a much more complex level than most games) negates it from being a game.

What else is there in this "non game" that you can say makes it "not a game"? You compare this to chatrooms, yet, in chatrooms, can you build stuff? When you are building, are you fulfilling your chat persona or are you fulfilling the urge, or want, to be able to create something interesting, and maybe sell it to make some in game currency? I am sure it is the latter.

And the ability to make MONEY from something cannot negate it as a game.
If this is true, then:

Soccer(futbol), baseball, hockey, golf, basketball, american football, ALL are not games because ALL the players and coaches are making money off of it right? I am sure in the ORIGINAL design of the game, it was NOT intended to be PAYING these players to play. So using the logic of "making money off of it does not make it a game" is completely false.

Yay! you get it!