Open Spaces Announcement & Talk with M and Jack Linden

Not quite the same thing. If that IP is being stolen in SL and used in OpenSim or elsewhere then you have a point, but the fact that the IP is being uploaded back into SL (using SL tools) means their DRM model is useless. I understand its probably not possible to stop content stolen from the client as its not in server context, but when its uploaded it goes into server context and there's a massive black hole right there.

The permissions model you describe worked in SL's infancy until they assisted and allowed copying via external tools - at which point they abandoned the idea of it. Today it's pretty much useless as mainstream copying is now a reality, and for thieves its nothing to re-upload the content and most likely most of them prefer that anyway, as they get some credit for 'cracking' it. The permissions system today really only protects anything thats not worth copying - which is not the HQ content.

I would go as far as to say the permissions system is a bad thing in SL as the only thing it does for SL is give new creators a false sense of security. Its only a matter of time before any decent content is copied. When that happens those users have invested massive hours into a product which failed them, and most of them turn very bitter - even more-so when the DMCA system fails them.

Sure its good for looking after your average joe's content - at least until theft is so easy even that is threatened, but certainly not for anyone investing a lot of time in good content. Maybe that's where SL is repositioning itself - at the average Joe content creators ... although looking at this pricing change it seems quite the opposite.

Back to the topic : I strongly suggest LL abondon these crazy pricing changes, instead raise tiers 5% across the grid and OpenSpaces 20% to raize the shareholders bonuses. At the same time bring Mainland and Island tiers closer together and promote the idea of a healthy, happy grid ... LL wants to keep their userbase close.

I strongly disagree.

This statement falls under "all things linden" rule

LL can only deturmine who loaded textures or created an item first in Second Life. Since second life is an open source platform that other grids around the world are also running. a user could say go to an open source grid steal peoples creations bring them into sl and sell them.

Now since most people playing on opensource grids also play second life.

we'll say that Mark who uses open source grids to build things, then imports his work into second life to sell... uploads the greatest widget of all time and gets ready to sell baby sell... Now see... Joe the Plummer seen the greatest widget of all time yesterday on a open sorce grid and stole it and is now selling marks widget he made on the another grid.

Who do you think LL will ban.. the thief of the content creater

Cue Zee Linden for blog understatement of the year:

"October results indicate that we should expect land growth to slow in Q4 as Residents reconfigure their land holdings to accommodate the change in pricing and addition of the “Homestead” island type."

Yes, of course - this is only applicable in SL ... once assets move across grids they can't tell - well unless they all get together and think about it - but we know thats not going to happen.

And I pretty much know who they will ban

Well, I guess we're all done here.

This thread is a waste of everyone's time.

Katt why don't you just bloody well close it hey?

ALL DRM BASED COPY PROTECTION TECHNOLOGIES ARE USELESS. YOU CAN NOT PROTECT DIGITAL CONTENT WITH SOFTWARE.
This isn't Linden Labs' game to lose, this is not a game that can be won.
It is not technically possible to prevent copying by external tools. Not if you're Linden Labs, not if you're Apple, not if you're Sony or Bungie or Microsoft. IT CAN NOT BE DONE. The difference between Linden Labs and Sony and Microsoft is that Linden Labs recognized reality.
That's all DRM can do. Ever. Anywhere. On any system, any hardware, any software, any protocols, any technology.

You're asking for magic. Really.

Relax.
No not at all. All I'm asking is a simple way for DMCA complainants to have their stolen IP more effectively removed. No rocket science.

Simply put a process in place so that LL identifies the content being spread in SL (easily done looking at the transaction logs), and simply remove all those copies - like a branch delete.

Thats it. Fullstop. That simple.

That simple action will solve 90% of IP theft frustration ... when the creator finds / identifies the stolen IP and files the DMCA, LL removes that copy as well as all those it's 'spread' to by giving it (a zero value transaction) or selling it (a >0 value transaction), and check for branches.

Where's the magic?

Charming. Why did we ever expect any more than that?

So why are you complaining about DRM? DRM has nothing to do with DMCA requests. Compact Discs have no DRM on them, but if you rip a track and put it up on your website you are still subject to DMCA takedown notices.

The "magic" comes when you expect DRM to make any difference to this situation.

Because it doesn't work, and as I said does more harm than good. But by making a simple enhancement to the process they have adopted (DMCA), it would put a little credibility back into the idea of digital rights management.

Enough said, it's not going to change ... till it needs to, and competition is needed for that to happen. Sad but true.

You can't put credibility back into the idea of DRM, because DRM is inherently useless. DRM is the (inappropriate, and doomed) attempt to use technical means to enforce copyright law. Employing *other* techniques for protecting copyrights (such as DMCA takedown notices)is a different matter, but it's got nothing to do with DRM.

Ok ... forget DRM, put a little credibility in LL's claim that your IP is important to them etc, and all their marketing hype about it. In fact, they can put the credibility wherever they like ... there's enough holes that need filling. Just fill some.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qie Niangao
Well, I guess we're all done here.

Originally Posted by Zee Linden
[in /352/14/292421/2.html#post2218779/352/14/292421/2.html#post2218779]Ciaran - thanks for your message. We did change the pricing structure from Jack's original post in a post that Mark made. We are not planning to make further changes to the pricing in the post that Mark made, so for now, those are final.


The pricing may be final but LL has yet to define the product they are offering. Unspecified script limitations mean that we still do not know what the product actually is so how can anyone make any reasonable determination as to the value of the offering. This thread has degenerated into a discussion of intellectual property rights instead of a forum to press LL for clear answers. I guess they have succeeded in ignoring us again and neither side has learned anything. The Linden response to its paying customers is unforgivable and they should be reminded of that fact at every opportunity and in every forum, post and announcement.

Compared to Sony's relationship to your IP, or that of any other 3d environment, Linden Labs could go totally Youtube on us and STILL be a better environment.

Little Big Planet, Everquest, Warcraft, Realms, all those MMOs, their TOS basically say "all your IP is belong to us". That's the competition. That's so low a bar you could roll over it in your sleep and never notice.

I am only a small landowner (2 parcels @1536, having dropped one 512m2 already) on the mainland. I'm not a mall owner; I make sculpted flowers with original music loops in them, which are displayed in my front yard.

When I first came to SL in June, I looked at islands and openspace sims but couldn't afford them. I bought mainland simply to have a creation workspace. Having discovered what I like to do here artistically, while I learn more about the tools I consider that 1536m2 is adequate for my needs at this time. Of course this means that larger dreams, of soaring architecture or interesting use of space, are limited by my prim allowance.

I would love to be able to have a workspace as large as 1/4 sim, or on an island, or a "homestead" or an openspace. But given this whole issue, and the lack of response or clarity by LL in these forums, I am very dubious about investing in such a thing.

Here's what I personally have noticed in 5 months in SL:

1. An incredible deterioration in response time for scripts, music and textures. In August I could play a gesture with a full song in it ("gummy bear" all the way through with no skips, hiccups or lost passages almost anywhere. Today, this gesture is useless; it skips, it drops packets and whole sequences or the music never plays at all.

Since I am experimenting in soundscapes and musical composition vs. buildings or objects, this makes the entire world rather useless from my point of view. I can still make "pretty stuff" I guess, given that I might have to wait 10-70 seconds for a simple cube prim to rez after I have invoked it (timed on several occasions, mostly late at night SL time with 35-40,000 "logged in"

2. When I would teleport in June-July-August, I'd arrive somewhere with hair at least. Now, it may take 30seconds-2 minutes for my hair or shoes to appear. It's the same hair I was wearing in August. And no, I don't overload myself with prim attachments.

3. Camping bots far outnumbering people. When I go to a mall to buy content, most are populated by bots - I have yet to enter one single mall that shows "avatars present" and find one single real person to talk to there. There is a new mall that moved in behind me, that immediately had 6 bots in residence. They accumulate daily.

4. Walking (touring) around almost any sim now is an exercise in frustration; skips, lags, jerks, bumps, slowdowns ("glue walking" and the ever-present bilocation/slip of attempting to cross a sim boundary. Forget balloon rides, boat rides or anything of the sort. Forget flying.

5. Ghost towns, all over. Empty builds. No one home.


How does this relate to the openspaces issue?

1. I'd never pay for ANY large amount of "land" in SL given these technical issues.

2. I do not believe these issues are related to the "openspaces are straining our sims" nonsense. I personally can date these problems to the 1.20 and up viewer, as I was using 1.19 far longer than most until SL forced me to upgrade it (mid September) and I noticed a deterioration in performance IMMEDIATELY. I have since educated myself as to the ongoing texture & cache issue detailed in http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-8503. It is astonishing that such an issue be overlooked when talking about "sim overload" and "backend problems" and that the technical glitches being experienced worldwide by every single resident be laid off at the door of the openspaces owners.

3. I do not understand how LL could allow the creation of clubs, discos and high-volume malls on these spaces and not use simple metric tools to identify and isolate these abuses. Really, that is networking 101. To lump all openspace owners in the same basket is disingenious at best.

So today, after dropping one 512m2, I am dropping an additional 1536m2 back to LL (who cares about the Ls? I won't get rich off them) to support the protests against this whole sim-reshuffling-repricing-no-response-from-LL issue. Come December, I will be dropping both my remaining 1536m2 mainland land and my premium account and going to a free account. I am reducing my footprint in this world, refusing to pay LL any more real money and looking for viable creative communities and worlds where the promise of the metaverse can at least proceed with some view towards making a BETTER world, not just a copy of the screwed-up RL that we all come from.

Sadly, this response has been in a large part dictated by the nonresponsiveness of either Jack or M Linden in these forums. I am only writing today as the voice of what I believe is a large segment of userbase: small people who just want a little space to create and make beauty in this world. My voice may not count for much, but I assure you it is multiplied many, many times inworld by my conversations with other "ordinary players." The most intelligent and creative people I know take a look in SL for awhile, play around and leave disappointed. I used to urge people to go Premium to support LL, SL and the whole concept; I do not do this anymore.

I have read through 178 pages in this forum, many separate blogs/news sources, the JIRA reports and all the rest. I know the issues, but I also know that finding bots/100 avatar clubs/400 script clubs is a trivial exercise in network metrics and so cannot believe the statements of M Linden regarding the "strain" put on the servers by "openspaces." By my own inworld experience, there are far too many issues that LL should be concerned with regarding their network flow and resources that have nothing to do with openspaces per se; the attempt to lump all these failings together and lay them at the feet of "openspaces" is a clear indication that Second Life is not the world that it purports to be.

/me sighs, looks for greener pastures.

As opposed to implementing a strategy where your IP ends up belonging to everyone ... dunno - that seems to be a very uncomfortable sleep.

But as Ryan has pointed out these are off-topic.

So, COME-ON LL ... give us some input on this pathetic 'meeting-thread'! Some of us have been hanging around all week!!!

Originally Posted by Zee Linden
[in /352/14/292421/2.html#post2218779/352/14/292421/2.html#post2218779]Ciaran - thanks for your message. We did change the pricing structure from Jack's original post in a post that Mark made. We are not planning to make further changes to the pricing in the post that Mark made, so for now, those are final.

----

Nothing is final on this planet. Remember the Berlin wall?

This thing was standing there and Honecker said always it were final.

Look where it is now.

hehehe

Oh, hi! Welcome to the Internet. Here's your handbasket.

Alright, it's been fun. I think we've all shared something here these last few days but it's come time to stop neglecting my scripts

Keep in touch in-world!

Katt, could you put down your popcorn for a few minutes and walk into M's office and say that his customers are still waiting on him to come and talk to us.

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Open Spaces Announcement & Talk with M and Jack Linden
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Once he is here and talking with us I am sure that the people who pay your, and Jack's and M's wage (ie: us) won't mind you going back to your desk, putting your feet up and chuckling at what we say whilst you gobble your popcorn.

YAY ... the first thread when LL brought this issue up, had 3700+ replies after few days, now this thread which came with worse plan and it has 2500+ replies only so far, for the same time the first thread took.... so this is an improvement, and i guess on the coming thread things will be worse and we will see around 1500+ replies...... until they reach the perfect goal of ZERO replies for whatever they offer. Great job LL and thanks for addressing our concerns

*goes back to dreaming*

Okay -- so that's that. Now personally I feel misled by M that this was still open to discussion and negotiation. And from the forums I gather that I wasn't the only one duped into thinking that. But according to Zee - that is the FINAL ANSWER.

In the meantime Lindens Labs are bragging about all their increased revenue, growth, etc. I guess it's time we all stop pleading and begging because they aren't listening anymore. I'll hang on to my open sim for the time being - probably drop it come June. In the meantime - I will not be making any more purchases online. I've heard a lot of threats on here. It's those of you with businesses and major real estate holdings with SL that are going to affect their bottom line. Losing my minor contribution isn't going to make them lose a second of sleep.

We can all keep reading and blogging and giving them entertainment. But if that's the final answer - I'm done wasting my time on this blog. I've made my decisions. That is what I am going to do. So - what are YOU going to do?

I do know I've got about 7 months before I lose it all. I'm going to use every last prim and enjoy every laggy goofy script I have in my inventory!

Are you sure you're not a Linden alt? You sure sound like them! Is that the handbasket full of IP? Thx, I'll pass.

No, just cynical. So cynical that I *expect* Linden Labs (and any other company) to behave far far worse than they have, so I've actually been pleasantly surprised.

I've spent the past 30 years watching companies online (even back when online meant dialup), and they're behaving FAR better than average.

Yes, really. I'm completely serious here.
You haven't heard the expression "going to hell in a handbasket"? Welcome to hell (we call it the Internet, nudge nudge wink wink). Here's your handbasket.