Open Spaces Announcement & Talk with M and Jack Linden

Right. But note that because the full next tier level is charged if the limit is exceeded even slightly, some poor bastards end up paying nearly twice the fee per sq.m. of the "best case" numbers shown in the tier schedule.

I know of no way to get the actual revenue numbers per Mainland sim, nor the average tier collected per sq.m. owned. And those are two very different things--which is why those who promote "balance" between Mainland tier and Estate fees are full of it.

They seem perfectly capable of grasping the fact that raising Openspace fees will reduce Openspace ownership, but somehow they don't see that the same thing happens on the Mainland. Already much of the Mainland is not generating tier revenue for LL, one way or another. (The tip of the iceberg is the stuff owned by Governor Linden.)

Raising Mainland tier would reduce LL's revenue stream, not increase it. Raising it to Estate fee levels would be exactly the same as closing it down altogether.

Of course they know that, and some will even admit that it's their goal. The mystery is why they imagine LL would fall for it, but they trot out the same malarkey every time there's the slightest blip in the land market.

What do you think if in rl you put on the prices with 35%? People can spent their money only one time. so other stuff in SL will be less sold because you gusy did make this decition. It was allready quit difficult to make some money on Sl, but now it only will be more difficult. Economical crisis RL is also hitting Sl, should be a reason to lower your prices, not to make it more expensive

Katt,
Please, would you (meaning the Lindens) be so kind as to use this forum on topic (meaning talking to us as promised)?

Is that all you have to say?? Well...maybe you should check out that link...think it would help...you could take courses with your CEO there:

http://www.luc.edu/soc/

I think you misunderstood my post. We are already, on average, AT
estate fee levels on Mainland as far as LL earnings go. Only without
the benefits...

A pre-parceled auction-based sim release is about the perfect release
for LL. They get massive auction sales revenue AND the pre-parceled
sim pushes the average earnings per owner for that sim towards the
$640/month ideal versus the $195/month non-ideal result.

The more I look at the situation, the more the posts saying LL is just
attempting to drive people off their OS's and onto auctioned pre-parceled
mainland sims seems like the most likely explanation.

WOW! There is Linden life out there.
And please note I am only answering questions asked to me here.... and it is kindof on-topic ... but if you think not, yw to remove it


Q: You're not a LL undercover are you? Although it doesn't matter, the Katt's in the room anyway.

Ok, i get what you were asking ... so ....
Yes, I guess thats what I meant answering the intial question re better than "point-for-point". This is probably not a good forum to discuss this, but as you asked (notice mod the question was asked), and also it has to do with ways alternative platforms are thinking of handling regions like 'openspace' it prob is ok, and maybe some clever ideas SL can think about :

Sure, there may not be everything in there as from day 1, but then niether was SL at day 1. It should have (a lot of) what immersion SL gives you initially, more piled on as it grows, and I can say theres a lot more planned than what you find in SL (currently) - way more. So its not a 'try copy that success' model, more like 'look at that and do something similar but differently'. But time will tell - these are massive projects and take time - specially for smaller teams.

Not sure what to be specific about? in general ... good physics - saw an impressive 50000 ball test, as well as a drag-n-drop graphic scripting editor, and I think there will be normal (coded) scripting too. Yes it'll have in-world build tools, and i think i heard the ability to build environments offline (unaffecting your inworld version) - but a lot more powerful is the ability to import models - so not sure inworld building (apart from model placing and basic building etc) will be that popular with all the good 3D design tools out there (theres now even more support for different modelling tools than initially announced). Not sure about any restrictions on content or why there would be. I'm not sure if thngs like the facial configurator are planned from day 1, but think full facial customization incl abilty to build from photos etc in the pipeline anyway.

Re property (as we're in an openspace thread) : the initial design was you could have your own property hosted (some limitations and control for QOS obviously) and based on some dynamic algorithm the effectiveness of the host would determine the content allowed (sort of like prim limits but based on more - scripts / region instances etc). 'Regions' (not sure of their exact terminology) have ability to run mutiple 'instances' - allowing for eg. renting of your region to a war RP group, while visitors can still visit the base version peacefully (server resource dependant). Also unique / clever design is the fact that your hosted (region) server is actually used to run tasks for other busier servers (which forms part of the distributed architecture) instead of being idle most its life. Terrain can be deformable (if required) - eg. throw a grenade you can get a hole, but it depends on the property owner I guess as damageable content uses resources. Terrain editor is extremely advanced, supports heightmaps, but forget them.

[Disclaimer for Katt] : All that said, its important to remember that LL are already successful, all these others still need to get there - and probably in babysteps. But whether they do or not, competition is always a good thing.


LOL ... sorry, i have to laugh at the again. It's more like a "you create and you protect (if you happen to be lucky enough to find the stolen content). We'll just turn a blind-eye till then" model "... and maybe price you OS so that you can't host that content anymore anyway".

There is nothing secure about the content in SL. Its open source and nothing is secured.. Just wait and see just how much protection there is if the migration to alternitives becomes increasingly more popular.


It will be you create then before you even get a chance to blink your brand new creations on 6 other similar simulated worlds...

agreed though not a new message indeed.
Could you please send some Linden who is authorized to discuss the thread topic online here with the concerned residents as you are obviously not authorized to tell us anything substantial on topic, thank you!

No. I have been approached for a job in their support team, but the timing was poor.

Anyway, rather than mix up topics, I'm going to read and try and understand your message at more length, and think about it before commenting on the meat of it. I would like, however, to try and clarify the DRM issue here, because you don't seem to actually be talking about DRM here:

DRM doesn't mean "encryption".

DRM also doesn't mean "something that actually works".

DRM doesn't have anything to do with enforcement.

DRM refers to any technical mechanism for controlling access to digital content.

In fact, using DRM for copy protection, in the real world, is not possible. The whole basis of copy protection is fundamentally unsound and unworkable. Limited as it is, the LL permissions system is probably the ONLY DRM scheme in the whole world that's effective at *any* level. Seriously. DRM based copy protection is a technology that is "born failed".

The presence or absence, or the quality, of technical measures to protect content from copying has nothing to do with whether it is open source or not. If you buy a CD, and rip the music from it, and put it on BitTirrent, you're violating copyright even though there is no technical mechanism on the CD to prevent you from ripping it.

DRM is orthogonal to copyright.

It's like one man knocking on a door .....If no one answers ... The one guy will go away in the end .

3000 men knocking a door ....Diffrent story .

Jack , M .... Kat


We are not gonna go away untill we have had a " Talk " ....

This is turning into another " Solution " Topic .... lots of people chipping in with great advice on how best to sort this situation out .

My Feeling is LL need help here with this , And by looking thru all the posts here and picking out the best bits that suit LL .

Thats not what we want ... Jack , M .... Kat .
WE WANT TALK !

Feedback ... Dialog .

This whole thing is wrong wrong WRONG! from the get go , You know it ... and we know it .

Im sure you will be reeling over this dispute and its not good for PR ... We are reeling more about the lack of responce from the lab .

WE want to help .... Mark ...Please .... talk to us ..... Even a " Im here guys ... and we are trying to figure this out "

I'm one of the lucky people in all of this as i managed to work an arrangment that will ease all of the upset this has caused over the last few weeks ......Many are still trying to deal with it in the best way they can ..... but some kind of nod to let people know things are happening would not be a big thing from you guys ..... But it would be a HUGE help to us .

R.S.P.V



( Keep Knocking men ! )

Well, I guess we're getting a bit off-topic here again .. .but seem as nothings happening on-topic and this is SL related ....

Actually, DRM means Digital Rights Management. In other words it doesn't belong in the same sentence as SL as it implies that SL has a mechanism to control content rights - which they don't. The closest they come is hiding behind the DMCA 'blanket', but unfortunately don't apply that too well either but get away with it as no-one really can afford to take them on.

For example if IP is stolen the creator should have the right to ask LL to remove the stolen content. SL's method allows the creator to have the copied content removed in the few instances the creator manages to stumble across IF they are that lucky (not in the thousand other inworld copies - which btw are being recopied and distributed all the time). This goes completely against the idea of DRM as the stolen content is still inworld being further distributed.

At the same time there is a hierarchial link between objects (parent->child) in the database as they are copied, so its extremely easy for them to remove all copies of that stolen content by working down the tree from the first stolen item (and should simply have a batch job to do it) ... but in all these years I'm not aware of any cases where thats been applied. Why? Becasue it would affect the L$ ... user A buys a stolen item from user B, if both are removed by LL, user A is out of pocket. In the real world thats tough luck (ie. be careful where you buy your goods from), but in SL L$ is way more important than IP.

So the result is :
- content creators work hard to create good content
- a user blatantly steals it using a free account no-one can trace (and LL supported tools)
- the content is now sold inworld (normally full perm destroying the creator or retailers business)
- the creator or retailer sees a few of the stolen items
- and raises a DMCA and has the few copies removed (Heaven help him if a counter-DMCA is filed!)
- the stolen item is still distributed elsewhere (where they never found it)
- the creator now spends the majority of their time looking for stolen instance inworld (when most often they are in user inventories only being rezzed when needed)
- Of course theres no way for the aggrevated creator to prosecute the thief as that was a temp account and most likely in a country on another planet.

Hows that exactly well implemented DRM?

Oh, sorry, no, I wasn't disagreeing, but rather trying to amplify your point about Mainland tier in general. (I would quibble a bit about wording: I agree that Mainland tier cost to residents per sq.m. is at or above Estate fees, but because so much of Mainland currently is not generating tier at all, I think per sim revenue to LL is much lower.)

I wasn't actually addressing the auction-only sims such as Nautilus City. But I actually don't think those are such a great deal for LL. On the one hand, I suppose that many of the parcels there are owned by residents with other holdings, bringing the per sq.m. rate down. But even the 1024s that are the sole holdings of their owners, the first 512 of it is Premium "bonus", so it would only bring in an additional US$5/mo per parcel; of course that's in addition to the Premium membership, and it's not obvious how much of that to apportion to the land ownership. Anyway... the reason I don't think it's a huge win in this case is that, whatever the auction prices, the tier revenues are for something like 4 sims worth of parcels (the parcels are double-primmed), but with all the Linden content, Nautilus City occupies 30 sims.

That's not to say I disagree with the larger point, that LL hopes the Openspace changes will improve the relative appeal of the Mainland in general. That may be true. God knows they better find something soon to return the Mainland operation to profitability.

Heh, we agree then

If an object is copied illegally by someone, it's not exactly the same as the original, since the creators name will be different. (At least that's what I assume) So the UUID will also be different and all of them can be deleted from the database. New copies can ofcourse be made, but if they find one, it shouldn't be hard to remove all of them.
Would be nice if LL managed to link similair items in the database so they can look for copies automatically, I think that's quite difficult though.

A big hug for everyone who is a victim of copybots
A big stick out my tongue and slap in the head to all copybots and their owners

Um, yes they do. That's EXACTLY what the SL permissions system is all about. The SL permissions system is a DRM mechanism.
Yes, I agree, they should, but that has nothing to do with DRM. DRM is a specific technical term that has a specific technical meaning.

For example, if you download music from iTunes, and copy that to a friend's computer, and he attempts to play it and iTunes says he's not authorized to play that music, that's DRM. If you use Audio Hijack Pro to bypass the DRM and copy the rsulting song to your friend's computer, Apple's DRM can't do anything to remove the copy from his computer.

On the other hand, if you rip a file from a CD, and put it up on BitTorrent, and get a nastygram from the RIAA telling you to pay them $700 or they'll sue you for $7000, that's more like what you're talking about... but that's not DRM.

Neither of these are effective at protecting copyright, of course, but that's a whole separate story.

Based on OpenSpace/Homestead changes we decided to go for Private Sim. Bought one about 3 days ago, paid 1190 USD (price +VAT) and SIM was working about 2 days. Suddently sim (estate) owner was logged out, her account disabled without any reason and half hour later sim taken down.

Since then is nothing happening, sim is down, account on hold, nobody bothers to explain what is going on. Business is vanishing and nobody cares. It's impossible to call 800 Fraud line from Europe (its US/Canada only), Concierge chat is looking like "You have to wait" .. .chat closed.

This is frightening example of how any business done in Second Life can be jeopardised by "decision" of someone who has not any time frame to solve problems and based on TOS is free to destroy anything he wants.

This second life business is about year old and next week goes out as business case in national newspaper in Czech republic. I would not be happy to write follow up talking about "sorry, Linden Lab has just pulled plug, there is not business anymore".

What to do with this?

ILT, I believe even before this change that's been the case that if you rent or even if you manage a sim and the owner's account is suspended or banned you face a very real risk of losing everything with no recourse. It sucks but LL has been doing that for awhile.

thats terrible, I'm sorry to hear about that, I have been reading quite a few stories of this happening since the OS debacle started.

After all LL's puff, it's still bait and switch, and it still STINKS.
The ONLY honorable course is for LL to gandfather OpenSim prices.
I am truly staggered at LL's behaviour. It is a shameful disgrace.
Meanwhile, some of my favourite Sims are closing....

Wow, nice way to distort the truth to make it all the big bad OS change's fault. See my above post as to why your statement that I quoted is patently false. This has been happening forever and supposedly this has always been LL's policy when the simowner is suspended or banned.

Indeed. And there's no great outcry over these kinds of things when they're reported, even though I've seen many reports of people being banned and losing everything for flimsy reasons for years.

Are people afraid of complaining about these kinds of reports out of fear of being banned, or something? I don't believe LL engages in that kind of retribution. Or are these cases turning out to be justified when they're investigated, or what?

ok, I divested in SL today
3 more 4096m2 parcels abandoned, keeping my invest to a 'medium' - not minimum yet.
started with 1024m2, peaked at 32768m2, declined to 20480m2 some weeks ago, now quite happy since today with 8192m2 )))
4096 or even 0 might do too......................

Normally the creators name will be different unless its copied using packet injection where the force a saved data-stream back into the asset server and it copies everthing including all working scripts, but thats rare I hope. A UUID is always different for evey object as thats what it is : a universal unique id.

But what LL do in case of a DMCA takedown is only delete the copies you have listed on the DMCA, so there may be 1000, but you only saw and listed 3.

However, as in all good db applications there is always a parent child relationship identifying where the copy came from, on the backend they have many ways of getting to this (normally via a simple intersection table) but for you as the user on the front-end you see similar examples eg in your transaction log where a record is held of the item (link to the asset UUID) that you purchased from who. If thief A stole your IP, its childsplay for LL to determine who bought it from them or who they gave it too - its all logged as transactions, and from each of those who acquired further copies them - thus work down the tree. And remove them. But they don't so that. Maybe they can explain why.

The division rental of the mainland is altitude.
I do a business. There are many difficult problems.
Prim is not money.It is not in proportion.
OpenSIM is free of charge in own computer.
Openlife is cheap.But suck.Very problem is there.

The mainland seems to be old USSR. A Linden empire.
Neither the order nor the culture grows up in Mainland.
I am disappointed, but there is not administration.

You will be worried about circumference unless you buy 2-3SIM.
In addition, every EdgeSIM-maru is expensive.
It is not settled even if I pull a road.
It seems not to be able to understand it in Linden Lab.
The mainland does not change very much as far as a creative action
is not possible at more altitude.

Mainland of a poor person. Private Region and Homesteads of a rich person.
It is acceptance of the gap-widening society. Do not you yet notice it?
The mainland will do ghettoism more. By　easy people to intervene in speculatively.

SLZIN HLDGS.Japan / Akko Yoshikawa