Openspace Announcement Discussion with Jack Linden
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DR Dahlgren
Content Creator
Join date: 27 Aug 2006
Posts: 79
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10-29-2008 00:36
From: Joshe Darkstone All this talk of OS sims intended use is little more then subterfuge. It all makes sense but for one important detail... I don't think they are smart enough to dream it up and I definately don't believe they can plan well enough to make such a scheme work. Remember, this is the same group that dropped a perfectly good Credit Card Validation protocal so that anyone could join, only to find they needed something later on, and came up with one that nobody uses, or feeds false information to. This is the group that opened the Mega Prim hole in the servers a second time, a well known exploit, when they updated to H4. This is the group that, after almost two years, still can not get Alpha Textures to work right. This is the same group that released a broken server update, where the media play had serious issues, 3 days before Burning Life, one of, if not the biggest LL Sponsored events of the year. This is the group that just released Viewer 1.21 with the same window bugs in it that were reported on the release client. This is the same group that won't hire certain qualified individuals because they have been critical of LL in the blogs and forums. I wish they were smart enough and clever enough to come up with plan as complicated as Darkstone laid out. Maybe then they could actually make SL work like they say it does. If they did that, I don't think revenue would be a problem. Unfortunately, their ineptness in so many other areas of business, planning, software developement and customer service clearly shows that such a thing would be beyond them completely. So I damn with faint praise, LL is too screwed up to be that dishonest. DRD
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DR Dahlgren
Dahlgren Engineering and Design
Connecting Your Worlds
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Wallace McAllister
Registered User
Join date: 11 Sep 2006
Posts: 12
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10-29-2008 00:36
From: Jouret Frua
In the time since I took on this land, the exchange rate between GBP and USD has added about 40% to my monthly costs, now this as well. That makes my monthly spend on SL much more than I'm comfortable with. I need to have a chat with my landlord about what he's going to do, but I suspect I'll be downsizing.
Sent you and everyone else a notecard with my options right now. I will also be holding a meeting with everyone, my guess is probably Sunday. Would love to know what other estate owners are presenting as options to their residents, feel free to send me a notecard in world (I am usually capped) |
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Scooby Bellic
Registered User
Join date: 3 Aug 2008
Posts: 4
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Confused with the obvious
10-29-2008 00:41
Geez... maybe I'm confused with the obvious...
OS sims being overloaded and 'abused'? How can you overload an OS sim any more than a full sim? OS are 1/4 the prims of a full one - be it mainland or private (3750 vs 15000). Having four OS on one server is no different on prims than a dedicated server to a single sim. The 'light use' is already a part of the OS itself by the prim count alone. Seems if it was really an issue of being overloaded, the prim count could easily be reduced as opposed to charging more for the same prim count. Wonder why this 'overload' only affects OS areas. Sure seems like the 4 OS on this server run better with 3500 prims each than some private regions with 8,000 prims on a class 5. If 3750 is too much, why give it to use? Reminds me of the overdraft banking commercial - it's free, if you don't use it...
Think the real issue is OS gave people an option from having to buy mainland. People who rented out OS took an interest in their renters and provided what LL cant - a pleasurable interaction. Mainland prices have tanked for over a year. LL is losing lindens to OS owners who rent them out. If LL limits the options for people, the people are forced to buy mainland or pay more for being on an OS.
Currently a 1/4 region of mainland is the same monthly cost as an OS... so if you're gonna pay $75 a month for 3750 prims, where would you rather go - mainland with 16,384 sqm or OS with 65,536 sqm? Think it all comes down to LL trying to limit their own competition, gain mainland tier fee, and make it harder for individuals to deliver the proven 'better mousetrap'... but what do I know? I'm just a OS owner for another month who wont be buying mainland.
And for 'abuse'... Can't argue that... Linden basically says sure come buy it, but don't use it:
"They are provided for light use only, not for building, living in, renting as homes or use for events."
"As a stretch of open water for boating or a scenic wooded area they are fine"
Guess if you rezzed a couple boats, jetskis, and a treehouse to watch friends race them, you would be abusing the OS by building and having an event... and good gosh don't put out a fishing area and invite people - that might take 50 prims if you built a dock too... but 'abuse' by definition.
It's all about greed... plain and simple, in my opinion. Otherwise, why is the first priority to increase user costs as opposed to addressing the 'real issue' of overload and abuse?
On the one hand LL page states "...but we do not advise more serious use than this and will not respond to performance issues reported should you not use them in this way." Yet this cost increase is justified by "...and agree that we need to make changes to better support our Openspace users by actively working to keep the performance levels as high as possible. We will also provide some detailed guidance about what ‘overuse’ looks like and how to prevent it."
People do what is important to them - it's obvious LL's importance is for the bottom line dollar as opposed to providing a service. They "need to make changes" and "WILL provide some detailed guidance", but not before raising prices. Seems a price change is adding a new problem to more users that whatever 'overload' already exists. Don't see how a 66% price increase will solve the real, un-addressed problem.
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Fyre Furse
Registered User
Join date: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 60
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10-29-2008 00:42
Dear Linden Labs, in fact Dear All
Before setting any decisions in concrete please take into consideration us common folk who love working here, building and enjoying SL and who work dam hard to save and buy an Open Space Sim or Sim, it seems the greedy few have ruined it for everyone again, so my point is you know who the users and abusers are, go after them!, sit down and make a sensible decision and lets all try and work together instead of things turning into an "Us and Them" situation, dividing residents and Lindens, there I've had my say, thank you for listening....
warm regards to all
Fyre Furse
29/10/2008 7:37am GMT+1
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Shinichi Mathy
Registered User
Join date: 18 Jul 2007
Posts: 52
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Japanese residents are mad!
10-29-2008 00:43
I just wanted to put a comment from Japanese SL residents. They are very upset about the price increase in tier for opensims. We have a small but great japanese community in SL. These days, traffic is slower in all Japanese sims and people are leaving SL for other virtual worlds. Remember that in Japan, we have other virtual worlds these days and more coming out to compete with SL.
I really want to love SL and I myself have a normal sim and just purchased an open sim for a small house for myself and my partner. $75 a month was reasonable but suddenly $125? In Japan this is considered a crime!!!
I usually never talk bad about SL because I love SL and what it lets me do. I get complaints from my Japanese friends that SL is going down the drain and getting less popular in Japan. I always tell them that SL is here to stay and things will only get better.
I'm not sure if I can say that with confidence anymore. This decision is a bad one. I cannot understand how it is ok to raise prices to that extent. I'm sure there are other things they could do. But please, don't raise prices! It makes SL look very bad in Japanese people's eyes!
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bg5 Slade
Registered User
Join date: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 1
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yes they would
10-29-2008 00:45
a time ago a wise man told me some about LL ... "if they could charge you to breath, they would" ... and i have to agree, yes they would
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Mifune Thibaud
Aviation Architect
Join date: 6 Dec 2006
Posts: 35
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10-29-2008 00:50
A JIRA that truly addresses the core issue behind LL's proposed tier increases can be voted on here: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-1781This JIRA would properly address the issue of avatars overloading simulators. By providing more robust estate and end user tools, Second Life can allow for better self regulation, without the need for increased tier costs. |
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Snowflake Fairymeadow
Registered User
Join date: 21 May 2006
Posts: 704
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10-29-2008 00:50
From: bg5 Slade a time ago a wise man told me some about LL ... "if they could charge you to breath, they would" ... and i have to agree, yes they would LL used to charge people to rez a prim, or so I've heard. |
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Alicia Sautereau
if (!social) hide;
Join date: 20 Feb 2007
Posts: 3,125
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10-29-2008 00:51
From: Mifune Thibaud A JIRA that truly addresses the core issue behind LL's proposed tier increases can be voted on here: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-1781This JIRA would properly address the issue of avatars overloading simulators. By providing more robust estate and end user tools, Second Life can allow for better self regulation, without the need for increased tier costs. but that won`t bring people back to the mainland  |
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Snowflake Fairymeadow
Registered User
Join date: 21 May 2006
Posts: 704
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10-29-2008 00:56
Under the new tier structure, here is what is on offer for $125/mo.
3750 prims, and 65536 square meters of space on one sim, or 7500 prims and 32,768 square meters of space, possibly on more than one sim.
The market will sort it out.
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Lord Leafblower
O.O
Join date: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 26
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fix the actual problems
10-29-2008 00:56
Why not:
1. limit the number of avatars allowed on an OS
2. throttle the number of scripts (tricky, I can imagine)
It's not about the number of static prims surely? If you allocate a limit of 3750, then expect that to get used.
1 OS = 1/4 of a Full Region in terms of available static prim resources.
So 1 OS should = 1/4 of the price of a Full Region. (as it does today)
Systems will always get abused, making it very expensive is no way to prevent that.
Please put throttles on the system to limit the abuse.
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Kalyrra Heart
Registered User
Join date: 7 Jan 2006
Posts: 55
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10-29-2008 00:57
Dear Mr M Linden: You are a criminal. First you market openspace sims , you double the prims to bring them in line with regular estate pricing, then you sell thousands of them, and afterwards you try to price gouge us with a 67% tier increase. This is not acceptable. You are a criminal.
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Chaffro Schoonmaker
Funny Bunny
Join date: 22 Oct 2006
Posts: 137
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10-29-2008 00:58
Grandfather existing Openspace sims.
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Kalyrra Heart
Registered User
Join date: 7 Jan 2006
Posts: 55
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Jail these criminals
10-29-2008 00:59
Yes grandfathering tier rates would make sense. But Linden Lab, especially under M Lindens rule, will do no such thing. They are criminals and need to be in jail.
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Qie Niangao
Coin-operated
Join date: 24 May 2006
Posts: 7,138
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10-29-2008 01:01
From: Viktoria Dovgal A sim has zero load on the grid once it is taken offline. This really looks more like an exit from an ill-conceived service offering than a "real" price hike. The price boost lets them essentially discontinue the offering without saying they are dropping it. Quoted For Truth. This move simply must be intended to end all demand for the current OpenSpace product, for any use. How to proceed? Not just those who own OpenSpaces are affected by this; many residents will lose faith in SL. It's bad enough that I would expect Mainland prices to decrease as a result, and full-prim Estate sims to start emptying, too. What can Linden Lab do at this point to salvage the situation? Tinker with the new policy. Lots of suggestions for this, throughout the thread. At the very least, LL should waive the fee to convert OpenSpaces to full-prim sims in any quantity. Some more gradual fee ramp-up for "grandfathered" OSs would be smart, too. And introduction of a true low-end, void-filler sim at the previous pricing or lower, with very tight resource limits. Establish a business planning interval. Short of a true business emergency, there is just no reason for land fees and tier to change with less than six month advance notice. Well, there is a reason: if changes are this step-function, the results will be very difficult to predict, and every change will be to put out the fire started by the previous change. This does not create a business-friendly environment. Would LL enter into a contract with a supplier that allowed them to change the fundamental cost structure of the agreement without notice? This penchant for overnight bombshells makes SecondLife unusable as a business tool, making initiatives like "Immersive Workspaces" just buzzwords and pipe dreams. And it doesn't have to be like that. There needs to be an announcement, yet this week, committing to a tier and fee schedule that is guaranteed through 2Q09, with a firm commitment that any subsequent changes will be announced at least six months in advance.If that's not possible, then this platform is just not ready for business use.
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Matthew Dowd
Registered User
Join date: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 1,046
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10-29-2008 01:04
From: Baloo Uriza True. I'm not a lawyer, but to challenge it, I'm pretty sure you would have to prove that either 1) clickthrough license agreements aren't valid in your area (I believe SL is entirely closed to everyone who lives in such a jurisdiction), or 2) you agreed to it under duress (ie, a Linden put a gun to your head, telling you to log into SL or else).
People falling into group 1 would be walking TOS violations just because of where they live, and I have my doubts group 2 exists in this case. or (3) that part of the TOS violate or are nullified by law (e.g. UK Copyright Law nullifies most reverse engineering/decompilation clauses) or (4) that part of the TOS are unfair ("fairness" being determined by the courts typically through case law). I think the arguments would revolve around (4) in this case. Matthew |
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Lucinda Bulloch
Registered User
Join date: 2 Nov 2007
Posts: 33
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An idea
10-29-2008 01:05
what if i bought a main land sim (tier is the cheapest) and combined it with one of my OS sims, add the tier 195 + 125 = 320 add the prims 15000 +3750 = 18750 so thats cost price of
5 lindens per prim per month, so charging 9 per prime per month would be fine and repay the investment, then sell it in 500 prim blocks 400 on main for a house and 100 on beach for a beach hut, that would make OS sim usefull and sell there mainland but will the traffic still be an issue, just an idea might work
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Bit Bravin
Registered User
Join date: 13 Aug 2008
Posts: 9
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1759 posts
10-29-2008 01:07
and 1 worthless blurb from Jack the messmaker.
Makes me awefully glad I sold outta my sims awhile back, but I do feel so sorry for the nice couple that bought them.
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Wolfvex Ninetails
Registered User
Join date: 3 Feb 2008
Posts: 1
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10-29-2008 01:08
From: Scooby Bellic Geez... maybe I'm confused with the obvious...
OS sims being overloaded and 'abused'? How can you overload an OS sim any more than a full sim? OS are 1/4 the prims of a full one - be it mainland or private (3750 vs 15000). Having four OS on one server is no different on prims than a dedicated server to a single sim. The 'light use' is already a part of the OS itself by the prim count alone. Seems if it was really an issue of being overloaded, the prim count could easily be reduced as opposed to charging more for the same prim count. Wonder why this 'overload' only affects OS areas. Sure seems like the 4 OS on this server run better with 3500 prims each than some private regions with 8,000 prims on a class 5. If 3750 is too much, why give it to use? Reminds me of the overdraft banking commercial - it's free, if you don't use it...
Think the real issue is OS gave people an option from having to buy mainland. People who rented out OS took an interest in their renters and provided what LL cant - a pleasurable interaction. Mainland prices have tanked for over a year. LL is losing lindens to OS owners who rent them out. If LL limits the options for people, the people are forced to buy mainland or pay more for being on an OS.
Currently a 1/4 region of mainland is the same monthly cost as an OS... so if you're gonna pay $75 a month for 3750 prims, where would you rather go - mainland with 16,384 sqm or OS with 65,536 sqm? Think it all comes down to LL trying to limit their own competition, gain mainland tier fee, and make it harder for individuals to deliver the proven 'better mousetrap'... but what do I know? I'm just a OS owner for another month who wont be buying mainland.
And for 'abuse'... Can't argue that... Linden basically says sure come buy it, but don't use it:
"They are provided for light use only, not for building, living in, renting as homes or use for events."
"As a stretch of open water for boating or a scenic wooded area they are fine"
Guess if you rezzed a couple boats, jetskis, and a treehouse to watch friends race them, you would be abusing the OS by building and having an event... and good gosh don't put out a fishing area and invite people - that might take 50 prims if you built a dock too... but 'abuse' by definition.
It's all about greed... plain and simple, in my opinion. Otherwise, why is the first priority to increase user costs as opposed to addressing the 'real issue' of overload and abuse?
On the one hand LL page states "...but we do not advise more serious use than this and will not respond to performance issues reported should you not use them in this way." Yet this cost increase is justified by "...and agree that we need to make changes to better support our Openspace users by actively working to keep the performance levels as high as possible. We will also provide some detailed guidance about what ‘overuse’ looks like and how to prevent it."
People do what is important to them - it's obvious LL's importance is for the bottom line dollar as opposed to providing a service. They "need to make changes" and "WILL provide some detailed guidance", but not before raising prices. Seems a price change is adding a new problem to more users that whatever 'overload' already exists. Don't see how a 66% price increase will solve the real, un-addressed problem.[/QUOTE
It appears to me that what Scooby said is right on the money. Lindens see a lot of OS owners hitting a market of small residents that want a nice place and linden cant have that happening. They want to force all the OS owners out so they can snatch up the sims and resources that have already been for and probably convert them over to something that LL can make money at. The one word that really come to my mind when I read all of this is LL wants to create a monopoly. Now for me I can not nor would I want to invest in mainland just to have a nice private place for me and a couple of friends. The tier fee I am paying now is ludicrous for the prim count you get but the pay off is there are only 4 of us on this entire sim, however I am sure that will change. I just wonder what LL will do with this island after it is abandoned? |
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TheRaven Slade
Registered User
Join date: 4 Feb 2008
Posts: 1
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big brother
10-29-2008 01:08
big brother looks down on us all & even though lots are complaining of this move big brother will never listen.........their is always another way to control openspace lands.....& he would be the one to know how BUT he is driven by dollars......they always are....this is our second lives but big brother comes from our first life & he doesnt know how to change for he is driven by dollars he wants more & we will pay or abandon.....the new year will see lots of people abandon....but he wont care because he has dreams of becoming bill gates.
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TKT Klaar
Registered User
Join date: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 4
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10-29-2008 01:11
LoL http://jira.secondlife.com/secure/attachment/19920/DoubleStandard.jpgLook this Picutre .... this are a low Script Time but why all look only to the script time at the end we have to spoke about the Total frame Time and when i see there Physics about 10ms its really more then Lightuse!! i think there are just 4-6 Agents ( look at the agent time ) So you the guy how use this LowPrim SIM definitly misuse this SIM, its funny to see this picture at the Jira where all vote again the increasing!! On my one OS SIM i only have total frame times under 5ms , so i feel punished for nothing !! In my opinion LL should Stop these OS how use performance like i can see on this Snapshoot |
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Tegg Bode
FrootLoop Roo Overlord
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,707
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10-29-2008 01:12
Well at least the grid may run smoother with 10,000 less empty sims "for sale"  I guess some Openspace owners are to blame too for not monitoring their tennants sim loads. I don't suppose we could get _true_ void sims somehow with only 1400 prims, just for water desert and light forest usage?
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Snowflake Fairymeadow
Registered User
Join date: 21 May 2006
Posts: 704
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10-29-2008 01:16
As for the supposed Class Action suit, one important thing to remember is that any money anyone chooses to spend in SL is voluntary.
No one has to pay a cent to have a SL account or take part in SL.
That takes the wind out of the sails on claiming it is a monopoly.
the settlement in a typical class action suit is usually something like a coupon for $8 off at the business that was sued, anyway.
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Imsaho Fleury
Registered User
Join date: 3 Feb 2007
Posts: 17
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Why we got an Openspace
10-29-2008 01:18
Katt Linden says she will read all these posts, so i'd like to put in the reason why my partner and I bought an openspace.
We owned 20k of land with azureislands. We didn't buy the land because of prims .. we bought 'buffer land' around us to give us privacy and a nice block of water to have fun in. We shared the sim with about 6 other residents. When the openspace came out we looked at it and did the math.
1) It gave us 65k of land (in our case, 50k of water and 15 k of land for the house and a few other islands).
2) It gave us sim control. As a scripter, the 'top script' debug tool a sim gives is really useful
3) Prim count was not an issue. We weren't using our prim allocation where we were.
4) We didn't think performance would be an issue. My (obviously naive) calculation was that I was moving from a full sim supporting 6 residences to the equivalent of a 1/4 sim supporting 1. Believe me, I did try and get a handle on what an openspace could support, and all i could tell from trawling through the forums was that there was a load balancing that kept an openspace from overloading other sims sharing the CPU.
To me it seemed like a win-win. We got more land, we didn't load the system more than we had been previously (we thought we were actually loading it less) and we paid LL (via azure) roughly the same amount as we had been.
What I would love to see from the Lindens is something which says 'if your openspace performance is such and such then you are exceeding the load'. We are the only ones on our sim .. we could quite happily knock out a seagull or two if we were overloading the system (actually it's the hovercraft that is the performance expensive one .. 200us and no, it's not my script)
What suprised me was the 66% price hike without a preamble which said that overloaded openspaces were causing problems.
That's my pennyworth. We bought in good faith. We didn't think our load footprint would be any worse (in fact, i though I was doing LL a favour by reducing our load) . Now we are going to have to pay an extra 50 USD a month for that mistake and i'm not sure it's worth it.
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Kitten Nicholls
Registered User
Join date: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 1
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I agree with you
10-29-2008 01:19
From: Daman Tenk For me this is the straw that broke the camel's back.
I have been saving up and trying to finally get credit clearance, to get the OpenSpace I've been dreaming of for ... well ... pretty much as long as OpenSpace sims have been available.
Coupled with all the other problems of Second Life, I've decided I'm better off setting up my spare PC as an OpenSim and getting onto a grid not run by a company with the business ethics of a pre-schooler.. I say everyone just go onto the web and create there own worlds just for them and their partner. And show LL what happens when you, are just greedy for money. When people dislike what you do, they usally go elsewhere. |
