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Openspace Announcement Discussion with Jack Linden

Julia Schlesinger
Registered User
Join date: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 1
10-28-2008 10:30
This decision is unfair and kills lot of iniatives. Nothing more to add about that.
Ithilwen Moonites
Registered User
Join date: 27 Oct 2008
Posts: 10
Hewwooo!!!
10-28-2008 10:30
It is me again... and the good o'l Snowblower is still up and running.. i was praying it would have died out by now... my god... let it please run out of gas... as i am sure we are all tired of hearing it going.... ptt..ptttt.putttt.. ptttffttt!
Rosie Barthelmess
Registered User
Join date: 17 May 2007
Posts: 545
10-28-2008 10:31
From: Snowflake Fairymeadow
I understand that everyone wants it spoon-fed to them but I'm not inclined to do so right now, which is why I keep stating that this is a PERSONAL OPINION. If you look back through all the posts you will see that there are a few others who are on the same track as me but have not been as vocal about it, and with good reason because this forum is like a viper pit.


I love it when irrational people resort to "If you don't know why I'm upset, then I'm not going to tell you."

Until Snowflake can provide some kind of logical assessment of why this will be a good thing for all of us, I'd suggest she just go find another forum to play around on and let the adults have their business and financial discussion. Otherwise, perhaps people should just ignore her instead of turning this rather one-sided 'discussion' with Jack Linden into the Snowflake Fairymeadow show. I can't see why she's deserving of any of the attention anyway.

It's obvious to me that she somehow stands to benefit from this situation while many of us are driven out of our virtual homes or our virtual livelihoods, and I'm not sure why her opinion is being treated as anything other than moot.

I am, however, still waiting for some kind of constructive feedback from Jack, who appears to have skimmed us over coffee and then taken a personal day.

A lot of second lives hang in the balance here, Lindens. It'd be nice if you'd at least throw us a bone.
slci Planer
Registered User
Join date: 21 Mar 2008
Posts: 13
10-28-2008 10:31
Amazing to see how people jump to LL's defense on this. What did you expect Jack when the OS sims received their update to 3750 prims and been made available as stand-alones even with owner change? You can't turn around now and tell people that you really thought ppl would use this sims ONLY for recreation or to sail etc. Of course it made OS sims attractive to live on them or have your business on one.

From the blog post all one can read is "over used", "heavy load on assets server", "not uses as planed".

Okay, assets server has been overloaded for at least 1 year and needs some serious overhaul. "Not used as planned" is something you can't come across with now, cause they have been offered and sold without any coveniant or line of usage. "over used"? Yes! Some of them, you need to crack down on them. We run our business from a OS sim we own with Fantasyland. The sim is stable and performs well with little to now lag. Please stop blaming stuff on the community you can't get fixed or made available without thinking about the side effects.

The next point is.. LL currently runs 16 OS sims on 1 quad core CPU. Soon as the price change kicks in this means that LL will charge 2000 US$ / month to rent a quad core server incl. maintainance. You can't be serious are you?

Maybe it would be time to draw back the greed a little and reduce the load from 16 OS sims to something like 12 OS sims per quad core. This alone would reduce the load by 30% unless I can't work it out right.

Another point is... when OS sims had the prims increased to 3750 and LL made them available as stand alones, it pretty much slammed the ladn market bad. Even LL must have realised by now that most people that are online a lot rather buy a openspace sim to live or do biz than owning a pesky lil parcel of mainland with no flair to it. Sure this results in a LOT of available mainland. The long winter days around the corner the move announced on the blog is a good way to make mainland interesting again since many people wont be able to cover a 67% increase in their rent just you guys feel like it.

Amen
MsToya Bailey
Registered User
Join date: 22 Mar 2008
Posts: 2
I don't understand a little thing
10-28-2008 10:32
4 openspace are on one cpu that normaly holds 1 full prim sim?
4 open space sims together makes 1 full prim sim?
the only thing 4 sims does is taking more space on the grid but the heavy part is the same?

I have bought from an estate owner an open space sim, cost me 45000 L$ and monthly tier of 93US$.
I have created a small paradise on it and we are only on mondays with 2 on the sim and further most of the time its only me, myself and I. A full prim sim i cant afford. This was for me the way of having a space of my own in wich i could create my own world.

Why in heavens name should I have to pay more cause others dont follow the rulles?
Everybody knows that there cant be a club on an open space. Clubs and shops are most of the time heavy loaded.

I dont feel its fair for us who doesnt have such heavy projects, and have well chosen for an open space to pay the price for those who are making abuse of it.

I really dont understand why you act like this while it is so easy to get the hard users who are turning clubs and malls on an open space. I truly hope you are going to make me an offer I cant refuse in wich I wont loose to many money cause now I am getting the feeling of getting broke cause of your fault. Cause although i sometimes sell a thing of my hand I always bring money into sl. RLmoney, hard worked for. Never ever I have earnt that much that I could life free in sl. So for that part being a premium user and a rl money bringer in sl I am paying your bills and I think that there are many many more paying residents like me, and not only the premium users. Think of that!!!

Sincerly,
MsToya
Bond Bedrosian
Registered User
Join date: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 1
Lack of foresight
10-28-2008 10:32
I may as well just quit SL as a premium member and just be a freebie and enjoy things at others expense. I have spent around $3,000 US in SL since coming here, but this will stop. I cannot afford anymore of the price changes you guys do given the RL economy. Presently I am spending around $180 US a month in tier fees on rented land and now with the increase, it puts me out of the market.

Good luck with your changes. It seems the openspace was not thoroghly thought through by your top-notch planners. This will have a ripple effect on builders, designers and the entire experience.

It was fun while it lasted. Bye


From: Katt Linden
Openspace Announcement Discussion

I will be reading all the comments to this thread tomorrow and will reply as best as I can then, as it's very late for me now in the UK. Please be assured that we do read every reply.


Jack

---

Openspace Pricing and Policy Changes

In March of this year, we announced improvements to our light use land product that we call Openspaces. Not long after this, the new Land Store opened allowing estate owners to buy Openspaces and have them delivered almost immediately, an enormous improvement over the old method of ordering them via support tickets. As a result we have seen tremendous demand for Openspaces - with many thousands of them being ordered. We're delighted that so many of you have found them to be a useful addition to your estates.

Read on after the cut..

For those that don't know, an Openspace is a type of private island that we made available for light use countryside or ocean. We figured that if Governor Linden can have ocean and green spaces, we should let private estate owners do the same. But Openspaces differ from normal regions in one particularly significant way; unlike normal regions that effectively get a CPU to themselves on the server, there can be up to four Openspaces on a single CPU (so 16 on a quad core machine), sharing the resource (hence them being ‘light use’).

So Openspaces have been incredibly popular as a perk for estate owners, but sadly there is a twist. Unfortunately most of the Openspaces are being used for much more than light use. Based on analysis performed in August and September, Openspaces are being used about twice as much as we expected, in other words being loaded with double the content/avatar load than we'd expect for a region that is supposed to be light use.

Rather than being employed as open areas like ocean with little or no content and traffic, the majority are being rented out to residents looking for a place to live. Because they were never intended for that level of load this is causing problems. For some people this has meant a less than great experience with performance fluctuations. The overuse of Openspaces has also put additional strain on some of our network and database infrastructure at a much higher ratio than is reflected in the current pricing. So higher traffic to and from the servers along with heavier demands on the asset server, both of which impact the overall experience people have inworld.

We need to therefore take some steps to improve their performance and better reflect their actual usage levels in our pricing so that we can maintain the best performance level for everyone. As a result, we will be implementing a pricing change effective January 1st along with some policy changes effective immediately.

Beginning 1st January 2009

We will increase the monthly maintenance fee from USD$75 to USD$125 per month. This price increase will apply to all owners of Openspaces on January 1st as well as new purchases after that date. There will be no grandfathering of Openspace maintenance pricing.

For anyone owning class 4 Openspaces on January 1st, they will be upgraded to class 5 by end of January, to further improve the experience people have on those regions.

At the same time, we will be increasing the upfront fee for brand new Openspaces from USD$250 to USD$375.

Effective Immediately

We will no longer allow the Owner of an Openspace to be changed to a different resident than the Payor. Initially we will not enforce this change on Openspaces where the Payor and Owner are already different but in those cases the only change allowed will be to set the Owner back to the Payor. This doesn't affect the parcel level rentals, this is just focussed on the whole region rental of Openspaces.

We will no longer offer an educational or non-profit discount for new Openspaces. As mentioned earlier, this is due to the increased back end resource required for us to support Openspaces in the way that they are now being used. For the small number of Educators that already have Openspaces, we will be contacting you directly to discuss this change.

Next, we will be making changes to the viewer that enable residents to know precisely what type of land or region they are on so that the land market remains as fair and easy to understand as possible. So expect to see changes that much more clearly display to residents whether they are on Linden Mainland or Private Estate, whether it is a Normal region or Openspace and what that means. This will affect various aspects of the Viewer including the inworld Search along with the About Land and Buy Land screens. Making Land easier to understand will benefit everyone, especially new users looking to step onto the property ladder for the first time.

Lastly we will begin to proactively discuss overloaded Openspaces with their owners. This is important because as with abuse of region resources, a heavily overloaded Openspace can adversely affect other Openspaces sharing the same machine which is clearly unfair to residents who are using them responsibly. We have listened to your feedback on this, and agree that we need to make changes to better support our Openspace users by actively working to keep the performance levels as high as possible. We will also provide some detailed guidance about what ‘overuse’ looks like and how to prevent it.

So to recap:

* Openspace prices and fees change on the 1st January with no grandfathering.
* Class 4 Openspaces will be upgraded to class 5 in January.
* Educator discount is no longer available for Openspaces.
* No Owner switching for Openspaces unless it’s a full transfer of Payor.
* More proactive education by support staff to prevent unfair resource use by Openspace regions.

We’re sure there will be many of you with questions and concerns on the back of this announcement. As previously, there will shortly be a forum created specifically for discussion of these changes so please head over here if you wish to provide feedback. In addition, if you need a more personal dialogue about this post, please contact support as usual.
Jini Hammerer
The green chick
Join date: 22 Jul 2007
Posts: 196
10-28-2008 10:32
From: Spektro Gibbons
I actually get the feeling he/she is a forum-trolling twunt and an attention whore...



Your likely correct. she is just a troll
Havoc Rau
Registered User
Join date: 19 May 2007
Posts: 1
THis is Bunk
10-28-2008 10:32
First of all no one "missused" these sims, please show me where in any agreement or policy statement it said not to split them up

YOU SET THEM SO WE COULD

This is like moving into a new apartment, then afterward being told the rent is going way up and all the rules are changing

We JUST bought 2 full and 7 openspace sims 2 weeks ago, don't even tell me that you did not know this was coming when you rented them to us

We been ripped off, no doubt about it.

LL are thieves, I hate to say it, but there is not other way to put it.

We abused? if you didn't want it subletted why is it in the system that we can? and not in the agreement that we could not?
IAm Zabelin
Registered User
Join date: 13 May 2007
Posts: 132
10-28-2008 10:33
From: Meade Paravane
Please, read this as many times as you need to to get it to sink in: openspace sims are not meant to be lived on.


Please, read this as many times as YOU need to to get it to sink in:
It makes no difference if you 'live in' an OS or not. What difference does it make? You could have a park or water reef with 30 AV's visiting which is WAY worse than you and your partner sitting in your living room with a view over your OS region. You should not have 10 residents living in an OS for sure, but 1 or 2 or even 3 should be fine.
Chaz Longstaff
Registered User
Join date: 11 Oct 2006
Posts: 685
10-28-2008 10:33
Here is the original product announcement:

In Jack Linden's own words: "An Openspace is a type of private island intended for light use countryside or ocean. Unlike normal regions that effectively get a CPU to themselves on the server, there can be up to four Openspaces on a single CPU, sharing the resource (hence them being ‘light use’)."

Nothing in the product announcement about you can't live there.

http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/03/07/announcing-changes-to-the-openspace-product/
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Thread attempting to compile a list of which animations are freebies, and which are not:

http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=265609
Zane Littlething
Registered User
Join date: 13 Oct 2007
Posts: 2
Probably will leave SL
10-28-2008 10:34
I live on an open sim with just two others. We are well below our prim limit. It is expensive as it is, but we enjoy the privacy and freedom so it is worth it. The new rate will make it too expensive and we will probably leave SL, not just the sim.

This is a case in which a few people who overuse a resource make it bad for those of us who play by the rules. (Rather like the policies of the Bushit Administration.) It is easier to hit everyone than to find and deal with the abusers.

LL is certainly not looking out for its users.
Coventina Dalgleish
Registered User
Join date: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 78
HAHA Typical of the LL way of doing business
10-28-2008 10:36
Well Linden Lab I see you closed the blog so that this would not be seen by the world but have you totally lost your minds or is this just the way to close down all those resource hogging open space sims, you could at least be honest about it instead of doing it this way.

You will achieve your purpose as I and many others will let go of the poorly run open spaces they were more of idle interest and a place to create a nice landscape. I realize many used them like full sims but your business plan is again suspect this is a bait and switch tactic. At the very least you should grandfather this ill thought out plan. Just another case of greed before customer service. This will result in many of the open space sims being just that a hole in the world. Congratulations on exhibiting your lack of care for your customer base again. I do know some decent business managers if you are interested you obviously do not have one and are badly in need of one.

Merry FN Christmas and a Happy BF New Year

Oh did I say Byeeeeeeeeee also

Totally absurd way to keep your customer base
WannaDoMe Sideways
Registered User
Join date: 30 Jan 2008
Posts: 5
Wow You Must Be Nuts Linden Labs
10-28-2008 10:39
900+ replys and not one is in your favor
and not one single reply from anyone that is a linden!
Whats up Jack you got your head under you desk hideing.

Ok so here the truth of it Jack you just busted our dream.
We do not at this time own any openspace sims but had planned to
Now it looks like we may even need to sell off the full sims wh have now.

I see the result of this being even more people leaving SL
Jack you and the powers that be may think that people are so adicted
to SL that you can do anything you want and they will still log in
and buy your product
YOU MUST BE NUTS You are not the only game in town anymore!
Exodus Digital
Registered User
Join date: 5 Nov 2006
Posts: 2
Red herring (narrative), a technique used in literature to mislead the audience
10-28-2008 10:40
Second Life is first and foremost a for profit business. As a for profit business, its primary financial mission is to fulfill the stated return on capital/investment to the investors. Linden labs discloses to the public (ie all of you) the following: " Linden Lab is funded by a group of notable investors including Mitch Kapor, Catamount Ventures, Benchmark Capital, Ray Ozzie, Omidyar Network, Globespan Capital Partners, and Bezos Expeditions."

It is reasonable and predictable to assume that the driving force of change behind these recent and unexpected rate increases and change of service is purely financial.

It is also reasonable and predictable to assume that the primary investors seek to position "Second Life" as a financial product that can return for them multiples that more than justify their initial investment "risk". Whether that be a public offering, or a sale to a larger entertainment entity you can all speculate about.

One only has to look at the acquisition rate of new paying members vs the termination rate of those who leave SL, to see that the growth of SL is stagnant.

In the above context, knowing all of this (and obviously much more), what choices does the CEO of Linden Labs have?


I am not the CEO. I am however, a SIM owner, who has watched his "investment" go negative. In light of the current changes and lack of real growth within SL, my only choice is to cut my losses and leave.

I am positive that another group, who has seen the SL business model develop and stumble, will take from this experiment the knowledge to create a competing product which will prove the original concept has a value proposition to all...... Customers, as well as, Investors.
Cristopher Lefavre
Registered User
Join date: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 12
Take actions against the cause
10-28-2008 10:41
I tried an OpenSpace once, and I can understand your concerns about overuse: Lag was sometimes bad, and I attributed that to load in one of the 3 other SIMs. So, resource usage should definitely be controlled in the OpenSpaces.

However, you yourselves notices that this product has become very popular. Many people are making their homes in an OpenSpace, and people willing to pay that much for a home are probably amongst the core users of SL: Very interested and devoted.

So, instead of forcing a lot of them to give up their light use homes, try to enforce light use instead. That should not be too hard. Some of my suggestion would probably need a server software upgrade, but counting the sheer number of customers involved that should not be too much of a hassle:

- Limit the number of avatars
- Disallow parcel split
- Disallow L$ transfers
- Limit the number of scripted objects

You have done great work lately in stabilizing the grid technically. However, this type of price change makes SL feel rather unstable in a much more serious way, making one unable to plan for the future, not knowing what will happen next month. I think you should avoid that.
Aleco Collas
Satyr
Join date: 10 May 2007
Posts: 1,463
10-28-2008 10:41
From: Swapps Swenson
Petition started at

SLinfo.de - biggest german Community-Website for Second Life


Well an ad for a german fan page in an english forum is really helping...

You really take every chance to advertise for it.

/me shakes his head not beleieving it...

cu
Aleco
Nyna Slate
Dragon Moon
Join date: 22 Apr 2003
Posts: 267
Converted
10-28-2008 10:43
I just two days ago converted my estate to 4 open spaces. It would have been nice to have been given a option to continue or opt out. No just take the conversion fee and watch me hand them back.
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The Fox
Vint Falken
Registered User
Join date: 16 Jan 2007
Posts: 31
No words...
10-28-2008 10:43


From http://www.flickr.com/photos/vintfalken/2981120149/

For your own modding fun:



Full size here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/vintfalken/2981120815/in/photostream
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Visit me at vintfalken.com. Second Life photography and much more. ;)
Haisy Halasy
Registered User
Join date: 8 Jul 2007
Posts: 4
unbelievable
10-28-2008 10:43
I don't believe at any words you say in blog. you are simple dragging money from customers. you sold and fix the rules before and now you are complain about it. People abuse of OS ? when you sold it was you looking in another grid ?
Well after gambling, banks, lands prices falling there is is only one thing sure ...business here is reserved for LL all .....others had to pay.
I really hate where second life is heading.
I am truly sad that I am demotivated more and more every day to make nice things inside second life. Bye
mindy Burger
Registered User
Join date: 5 Jun 2008
Posts: 1
Discussion with Jack Linden
10-28-2008 10:45
Well hello all
I have rent also 2 sims and have start some 3 months ago i now its not long
But we have some nice places made there and we just have start to get more ppl there to come also to play on it
But now with this news im affraid we dont can stay there the cost are go to high for me i hope they come with a good solving
Because this price what he wants now is to high for me and i read for a lot of ppl that only wants to have a bit fun this is not fair at all to uss

greetings mindy
Digital Digital
Registered User
Join date: 4 Nov 2006
Posts: 71
10-28-2008 10:46
I have just told my Residents that lease Open spaces from me that the tier prices will have to go up and already have had 2 people say they are leaving, Can only imagine that everyone else will be leaving as well that rents from me, If this happens I am done with SL will not be coming back and looks like I am going to be abandoning sims to Linden Labs. Thanks for this wonderful wonderful tier increase and price hike, it's so not fair to me or the people I lease out to in SL.
Ithilwen Moonites
Registered User
Join date: 27 Oct 2008
Posts: 10
why...
10-28-2008 10:46
Why does all have to be like this... the world outside SL is not good, so who can comes to SL to get away from the troubles... to what.... come into SL with same problem as the real world, money is not easy for everyone exspecially if one who does not work, and yet LL you have to go and up the prices on all land not just OS sims. I have been funny in other replies, but seriously... this is hogwash. When we are good to the sim and dont over use our prims and scripts, why should we have to be forced to pay for a light sim? when we have been behaving and doing what we are supost too? This OS we are on is my home i share equally with my sister. And soon i will have to leave it as i cant not afford additional funds... I might even leave SL altogether. That would suck for i have made many friends here and even my love. But i will not be bent to paying crazier prices than i already am. You will lose out big time LL, this is a mistake to make this move and you will all feel the burn from the flames.
Veggieson Ballyhoo
Registered User
Join date: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 1
"beautiful places"
10-28-2008 10:47
An openspace region allows someone who is not wealthy to create a beautiful single vision landscape. If they are given the controls/tools to do this and it is affordable. Because four of these sims are one server they really can only handle 1/4 of the agent traffic or 1/4 of the scripts as full sims before they get laggy. Ok yes, some people are abusing these sims with high levels of scripts and traffic. If agent number limits and script limits were placed on these sims it would stop the abuse. But still allow responsible non wealthy people to own these sims and make beautiful single vision artistic lands to enjoy. Raising the price does nothing to stop the abuse it only discourages and limits the ability of people to create these beautiful lands. I think the Lindens policy is "live and let live" and if there is a problem just charge everyone for the abuses of the few. They dont want to place limits on things, I suppose to not limit creativity. But the greatest limitation of all is access and affordability. Please try to find a way to restrict the ability of people to abuse these sims and not limit there access and affordability. I strongly believe your current policy is a move in the wrong direction away from your original intention of these sims. That intention was to allow for the creation of "beautiful places". Thank you, Veggieson Ballyhoo
nikita2 Denimore
Registered User
Join date: 28 Oct 2008
Posts: 130
10-28-2008 10:48
From: Chaz Longstaff
Well, then, if you could care less about someone else, there is no reason for us to care about you.


Perhaps my words were a little harsh.many here are estate owners and you speak with them.
I on the other hand rent an open space and this increase affects we who rent from you,
Your cost will go from $75 to $125 if this goes through.Assuming i will be paying the same increase on the new cost to estate owners that means i will be paying $163 tier
So while estate owner have their own concerns about the increase,we who rent from you also have concerns,you can re coup your cost increase to a point,we who rent and don't run a buisiness but just use the island for private use are stuck with the increase.
We have a voice here too because this affects us not only estate owners.
I wish i could afford a full 15000 prim island but i cant,so an open space is the next best thing,and it is only because i want privacy,the privacy of my own island
Wuvme Karuna
..:: Spicy Latina ::..
Join date: 6 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,669
Boo! LL fails again.
10-28-2008 10:48
This was a inside job and it just pisses me off that they act like they care what people think.

If you look at all the response 85% of the people don't agree with this decision, will they still do it? You betcha!

If they 'must' change prices they should do it the fair way, "grandfather" these open spaces and make newer open spaces the new price, that is fair on the land buyers and the people who rent.

This was known from the beginning before they launched open spaces, they had the intention of raising the prices later on, its a big scam and another poor judgment from linden lab.

Changing prices and giving a 3-4 month warning is just a disaster waiting to happen, the new 'land barons' who are starting their businesses will be extremely weak, renters who rent open spaces will leave their land, leaving tons of open spaces empty and landowners will have to sell or return their land.

Congrats LL just when you were going forward you just take 20 steps back.
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