Openspace Announcement Discussion with Jack Linden
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Alicia Sautereau
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Join date: 20 Feb 2007
Posts: 3,125
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10-28-2008 00:30
From: Alexia Cournoyer Down the years I've railed at LL for its badly thought out, poorly implemented and explained decisions. I don't rail anymore, as they're just part of the SL experience these days.
I must admit it's been a couple of months since the last one (Eve Capliani I'm thinking of here) and had been wondering what their next one would be. I even thought they might have run out of major impact decisions by now.
Something like this had to happen, the island explosion since they revamped the open sim idea has adversely affected land prices inworld and I can well imagine that back office costs have gone up as there are more customers per cpu.
These days LL supposedly have business information analysts In theory they've done an impact analysis and in theory they've identified this is the best way forward to maintain happy customers and therefore turnover and therefore profit.
No, I don't believe that either, but it does sound good.
From my perspective I'm cheered at the prospect of land prices on the mainland returning to a reasonable level. Only because I want to tier down and recover some of the original costs of the land. My sympathies go out to all (apart from those who abused the use guidelines) of you who will be impacted by this.
I find it funny that people still believe LL should support its userbase. Perhaps some of you would care to cast your minds back 18+ months ago when LL openly despised us. We've only ever been useful for generating customer numbers and making these guys look like a good investment idea.
Yes, there have been token improvements since user numbers started dropping 6 months ago, but in the end we're just numbers in the marketing tool for LL. Their main interest is in the more profitable B2B and educational institutions. i.e as a communication platform rather than a 3d version of facebook.
That's the beauty of LL. Their attitude is 'if you don't like it, leave' knowing full well that most wont.
C'est la vie. they don`t have to support us, but defenetly not SCREW us! |
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Xavier Felwitch
Registered User
Join date: 2 Nov 2007
Posts: 13
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Way to Go
10-28-2008 00:31
I really have nothing new to add that hasn't been said in the 25 pages.... all you have done Jack is make up my mind that my money is better spent outside SL. The falling local $ and now this has got to much. If this is a ploy to get ppl back onto Mainland, then i would rather be homeless before i do that. You talk about OS being laggy, the one i currently live on is far less laggy that the monstrosity that was my mainland experence. Good luck with formulating replys when you wake, may take awhile  |
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Firelight Simca
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Join date: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 156
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And how does this help?
10-28-2008 00:32
From: Snowflake Fairymeadow I am sorry that you feel that I am not entitled to my opinion. As I have said, I feel that this will help the economy AS A WHOLE. That means for everybody. I do happen to think you're entitled to your opinion. I do not see how this can possibly help the economy as a whole. Many of the people who own open space sims will most likely give them up because the increased tier is way too much for them, esp. in today's RL economy. I know of many people who can just barely afford their SL life in today's RL economy. And they're not going to settle for some small place on the mainland on someone else's sim when they've tasted the wonder of their own private place. If they loose their space, then they're leaving SL for good. They'll certainly find something else to do with their money. There are also the areas where open spaces are used to enhance a community. With people already having trouble with rents and tiers, how can most landlords manage to cover this increased tier and provide these truly open spaces. With people leaving, how will that help the economy? With people cutting down on their tier and land, they won't have as much room for the various things they might buy or the lindens to buy it with. So, how will that help the vendors and businesses in the SL economy. How does increasing the fees for non-profits/edu help the economy? These folks often pour lots of time and energy into things for the benefit of the general populous. They will have less money or spend more of their time justifying/fundraising the money. Yes, this may drive up mainland prices. And this may help some of the region landowners to get more tenants. And many of the people who are complaining will stay - just like the last few times over the last few years. I hope they do. (Open Simulator needs more time to be ready.) But I don't see how this will help the economy. I've read all of your posts, and I don't see any answers in there to that question. Firelight |
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Marita Lowey
Registered User
Join date: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 1
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10-28-2008 00:36
From: Katt Linden
Rather than being employed as open areas like ocean with little or no content and traffic, the majority are being rented out to residents looking for a place to live. Because they were never intended for that level of load this is causing problems. For some people this has meant a less than great experience with performance fluctuations. The overuse of Openspaces has also put additional strain on some of our network and database infrastructure at a much higher ratio than is reflected in the current pricing. So higher traffic to and from the servers along with heavier demands on the asset server, both of which impact the overall experience people have inworld.
I had an OpenSpace for a month, and certainly experienced lots of unexpected lag that I suspected was hard use of a SIM sharing CPU with me. So for all the people actually keeping with LL's presumption of light use this must feel unfair, as they are the victims of other peoples actions, actions they on the other hand feel is within fair use of the product they rent. I do wish that LL could offer a low-price light SIM with the proper restrictions in place as a product intended for single person living. It should be available to all premium account owners, without the need to also own a full island. To enforce the use you could: - Limit the number of avatars (for instance to 5) - Disallow cutting the land into different parcels - Disallow L$ transfers on the SIM Even at the new price this would be acceptable, because one would not have to pay a surcharge to a land owner. Take this as a product wish from me as a resident. |
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Tesla Miles
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Join date: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 14
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10-28-2008 00:36
Do you think that LL will really listen to the comments posted in these threads? If they do decide to change their decision, that would be a first in a long long time...
Personally, I own one openspace sim that barely uses resources, and little or no traffic. Out of principle, I will not be paying the extra $50 a month to maintain it. I say vote with your feet, if we begin indulging LL in their unfair demands, then who knows what they feel they can get away with?
They aren't willing to listen to us, then its only fair that we refuse to accept their demands. This is a one sided conversation. It's pretty clear that they are not being honest about their intentions.
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Vryl Valkyrie
Owner of 3D Concepts
Join date: 30 May 2006
Posts: 257
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10-28-2008 00:36
From: Belle Loll talk to your own support center. I know at least two OS sim owners that explained to Support on the phone what exactly they were using their OS for... BEFORE they bought them...be it a garden or a small store and they were told it was more than fine! Now you accuse them of abuse when they double checked before buying? I'm embarrassed for you Jack...you should have had your PR or HR read your opening blog before posting. You have now put your SL community in the category of criminals.
Why don't you tell what us what is really behind this price increase instead of pointing fingers at innocent people? I'd be a lot more receptive of the truth than the story you are trying to put out here. Same here Belle. I was told it was ok for owner transfer, running my business 3D Concepts, etc.. and now this. Frankly, we cannot afford the higher tier.
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Elgyfu Wishbringer
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Join date: 27 Nov 2004
Posts: 659
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10-28-2008 00:37
omgi feel really ill now
are they really going to force me to sell my islands? they will be loosing money from us, that makes no sense
i really dont know what to think now, except i feel very very depressed
i dont really understadn the whole 'grandfathering' thing - it does mean that they are effectively putting my costs up by 67% for those two islansd, doesn#t it?
omg so unfair
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Annalise Ember
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Join date: 3 Nov 2007
Posts: 42
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10-28-2008 00:39
From: Firelight Simca ..........How does increasing the fees for non-profits/edu help the economy? These folks often pour lots of time and energy into things for the benefit of the general populous. They will have less money or spend more of their time justifying/fundraising the money. ...............
Firelight The bright spot in this concerning the education community is that they will have a prime example of bad management for their biz admin courses. |
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Barb Carson
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Join date: 11 May 2006
Posts: 230
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Abandonment 101
10-28-2008 00:39
Anyone know for sure how long after an abandon ticket goes it it takes affect. Obviously I would want to wait the longest possible amount of time I could ....sitting on the edge of my prim hoping some poor schmuck comes by and despite my rental pitch he pays 125+ a month . My pitch would go something like this
Hi there Johny Schmuckface. Yes this sim is for rent. Yes it's an open space. 3750 prims - or at least that's what Jack says today. Performance? Well it's supposed to be for "light use." What's that you ask? Define light use? Errrr.. well has to do with scripts and stuff. Bascially you are supposed to just stand like in a forrest. What's that? If a Linden blows a game with really good potential in the forrest does anyone notice? Yeah they notice. But back to the rental. Well I don't really know specfics on what light use is. And I think LL could come by any minute and return your surfboard yeah. How much? <sneezing> 135USD/mo<sneeze> Johny??? JOHNY?? where are you going?
ok..tier is due tomorrow...if i put the ticket in today will they charge me? Or do I have to do the ticket guessing game and put it in 10 days before the bill date ?
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Chaffro Schoonmaker
Funny Bunny
Join date: 22 Oct 2006
Posts: 137
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10-28-2008 00:40
I thought this was meant to be a Discussion with Jack Linden? Can someone please point me to the point with a reply from anyone associated with LL? I just trawled through 20 pages of replies and didn't see a single one. Maybe this is another one of those times when LL decided that they are absolutely right, they can do no wrong, everything is hunky-dory...
Calling Jack Linden! Can you please remove your cranium from your derriere, find your spinal cord and 'discuss'!
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Ice Stawberry
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Join date: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 73
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Open Space Worthless
10-28-2008 00:41
The price per prim for an open space wil be 66% higher than for a normal region. So no one will rent on an open space anymore = this price increase makes OS sims worthless.
Best Ice
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Snowflake Fairymeadow
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Join date: 21 May 2006
Posts: 704
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10-28-2008 00:42
There was a huge outcry when LL raised the prices of sims 2 years ago, And another huge outcry related to the rise of tier on private islands, another huge outcry when first Land went away. Another one when sims were devalued to 1000$. Another one when Openspaces were introduced singly, and then another one when the price was lowered. I don't care if you all laugh at me and attack my opinion, many will see in the next few months that I am correct, but not many will acknowledge it. Its the nature of the forums, just to tear people down who don't follow the "herd"mentality. SL is not going to die over this, successful people will recover and move on. Of course there are always a few failures when people do not have a plan to roll with the changes their service providers may dish out. Here's the "full disclosure" that some of you were looking for: I know for a fact that some of the people who have attacked me in this forum are land barons and may somehow view me as competiton (and want to smear me as part of their own "business ethics"  because I own sims and used to trade mainland 2 years ago. In reality nothing could be further from the truth. I do still own my sims but they are rented privately to a single party who uses them for their own business. I am in no way looking for renters and unfortunately have even sent some people your way, JR, when they come to me looking for ethical mainland dealers. Don't worry, that will never happen again. I am not your competition and as I have stated before, I made a vow back in March not to continue buying from LL, so I am more than happy just to rent to my one tenant and enjoy my own SL, rather than trying to be a "rental manager". Oh and I still maintain: The sky is not falling. |
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Alicia Sautereau
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Join date: 20 Feb 2007
Posts: 3,125
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10-28-2008 00:42
From: Annalise Ember The bright spot in this concerning the education community is that they will have a prime example of bad management for their biz admin courses. lmao it should be made required reading material from kindergarden and up |
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Ithilwen Moonites
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Join date: 27 Oct 2008
Posts: 10
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10-28-2008 00:43
From: Elgyfu Wishbringer omgi feel really ill now
are they really going to force me to sell my islands? they will be loosing money from us, that makes no sense
i really dont know what to think now, except i feel very very depressed
i dont really understadn the whole 'grandfathering' thing - it does mean that they are effectively putting my costs up by 67% for those two islansd, doesn#t it?
omg so unfair I am sorry sweetie... just the LL's think all of us members are willing to stick our hands so far up our asses to pull out the money to pay the increases of the tiers and costs... i know it will be hard... just use extra lube.. i use Vaseline it works well. ((speaking for someone who has a hard time to pay for her own half of sim... i have reach extra far up))............... oh me forgot one thing......................hewwo... XD |
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Joy Iddinja
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Join date: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 344
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10-28-2008 00:44
This is probably a response to the global economic crisis. SL is entertainment, and while it may be more addictive than most, it's still considered descretionary spending to most people. As a result, people are going to downsize. Those who have islands but now can't afford them, or the openspaces they've added on, are going to dump them, regardless of the price increase. Howver, LL doesn't want to loose these people for good. Therefore, I believe LL will start favoring mainland, which can be bought and owned in part, for lesser fees, over the private sim holders, at least till the world economies stablize (not necesarily grow again, but become less volitile). They need to keep people who would otherwise leave inworld, so they will accept downgrading rather than total abandonment and desertion. Will some desert in protest of the price hike on openspaces, yes, but in the long run, it will likely keep more people in Second Life, paying some tier, if not as much as they used to pay, until this crisis blows over. Also, fewer servers operating will not only save them on power, but also cut some maintanence staff, etc. LL is doing what it is doing to adapt to the next year or two when descretionary income is gonna be scarce. This isn't a sign of disrespect or an attempt to drive away people, but to batten down the hatches in a major storm. As a mainland realtor, I've seen alot of decisions come down form LL that hurt my business, hoever, the more I see, the more I realize LL doesn't generally do things capriciously. From: Meta Starostin I was planning on buying one, but definately not now because the AUS$ / $USD exchange rate sucks.
The global economy is collapsing right now.
WAKE UP LINDENS |
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Chaz Longstaff
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Join date: 11 Oct 2006
Posts: 685
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10-28-2008 00:44
NEWSFLASH to the one person who keeps saying this will be good for the economy in SL: those who do hang onto their OS sims will now have $50 US a month *less* to spend in the SL economy. That money goes to Linden Labs, which is *outside* the SL economy.
Hold onto your hats folks. It's been a rough year in biz in SL. They shut down the economy for almost all of April with the introduction of Havok 4, they caused the great real estate crash of '08, and just as we enter the fall, the traditional good sales season, wham, here come the Lindens, kneeing you in the groin again!
The author of the blog piece, Jack Linden, identifies an issue, announces a price increase in response to the issue, but gives no indication of how the price increase addresses the issue.
No, there is something else behind this price increase, and he's hoping we won't notice the missing dots. It may be that it is to address other back-room money issues at Linden out in RL.
The argument that OS Sims were intended only for water is specious. No puddle of water needs the 3750 prim they allot.
I agree with those who want a return of their setup fees if they want to opt out of OS sims now.
>> Jack Linden: "with abuse of region resources, a heavily overloaded Openspace can adversely affect other Openspaces sharing the same machine which is clearly unfair"
Clearly this person hasn't dropped by mainland much, or he would know about overloaded mainland parcels. Even the new showcase places such as baycity or nautilus are a joke; tp'ing to them is like landing in a pot of molasses.
I have no idea why people such as Snowflake and Sindy Tsure have decided to gloat over everyone else's misfortunes, except to say, there always has to be a few in every crowd, doesn't there? Sigh. And the worst part is, they're the ones always insisting we have to listen to them, groan!
Bring on OpenSim!
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Vryl Valkyrie
Owner of 3D Concepts
Join date: 30 May 2006
Posts: 257
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10-28-2008 00:45
From: Snowflake Fairymeadow I am sorry that you feel that I am not entitled to my opinion. As I have said, I feel that this will help the economy AS A WHOLE. That means for everybody.
You are entitled to your opinion but I am entitled to mine as well. Please do not keep perpetuating the lie that Chris started that I am somehow making a profit off this. I only think it will help the economy as a whole. Its not as if LL has raised the sim prices only to put the excess into my personal pocket.
I think it is funny (as in hypocritical) when people whine about censorship on the blog and yet come here and repeatedly attack anyone who has a differing opinion than the prevailing one.
But thanks for admitting that people are attacking me because my opinion varies from theirs. I already knew that. But it doesn't make it OK. Easy for you to say when all of your posts on the blog are still there.. yet many of our posts were unfairly removed due censorship because we have the opposing opinion or view or had info which might shed some enlightenment on this whole antitrust affair. Infact, there is one instance where you responded to my post.. my post that no longer exists... as many others.
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Annalise Ember
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Join date: 3 Nov 2007
Posts: 42
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10-28-2008 00:45
Hi again, Snow. Nice speech, but you still didn't explain why you think this decision benefits the community.
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Taimaru Hak
Registered User
Join date: 12 May 2008
Posts: 49
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10-28-2008 00:45
Would Jack Linden please turn off the lights on the way out...
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Gigs Taggart
The Invisible Hand
Join date: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 406
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10-28-2008 00:46
From: Snowflake Fairymeadow There was a huge outcry when LL raised the prices of sims 2 years ago, And another huge outcry related to the rise of tier on private islands, another huge outcry when first Land went away. Another one when sims were devalued to 1000$. Another one when Openspaces were introduced singly, and then another one when the price was lowered.
No. When LL lowers initial prices it hurts existing landowners (lower barrier to entry, reduced secondary market value). When LL raises recurring prices (without grandfathering) it hurts existing landowners. It's not rocket science and it's not a double standard. These last two changes have hit estate owners hard. Both of them have been extremely costly and devastating to our balance sheets and revenue. The price increase, with the grandfathering, was a windfall for existing estate landowners. No one complained after it was grandfathered. The last devaluation hit us hard with no mitigating factors. This one is the same way. This isn't resistance to change, this is about Linden Lab not destroying intangible assets i.e. the limited transferable license to access a region... that we own. |
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Ishtara Rothschild
Do not expose to sunlight
Join date: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 569
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10-28-2008 00:48
From: Alicia Sautereau i guess no linden reply can only mean one thing
the finger Yup. Their logo should look like this:  |
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Jesseaitui Petion
king of polynesia :P
Join date: 2 Jan 2006
Posts: 2,175
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10-28-2008 00:48
rofl^ From: Ishtara Rothschild Yup. Their logo should look like this:
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Harmony Deschanel
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Join date: 4 Jan 2007
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10-28-2008 00:49
All the "What? where'd it say I couldn't use an openspace sim for a club or residence or store or whatever" .... I've read quite a few ... Go read the knowledge base article on Openspace sims, where it says exactly what you should not have been doing with them... using it for a residence, a club, a store... and what they say they are intended for. I think most of that was pulled from the original blog post on openspace sims when they were introduced, but I couldn't actually find that, so can't verify it... Here's a quote from the Knowledge base article if you don't want to go read it... From: someone Why are they "light use"?
Normal regions run on their own dedicated CPU, but the Openspace regions run four per CPU; as you would expect, this limits their performance. Openspaces only ever share with other Openspaces on a server.
It is therefore important to understand what these regions are. They are provided for light use only, not for building, living in, renting as homes or use for events. As a stretch of open water for boating or a scenic wooded area they are fine, but we do not advise more serious use than this and will not respond to performance issues reported should you not use them in this way. From: Ice Stawberry The price per prim for an open space wil be 66% higher than for a normal region. So no one will rent on an open space anymore = this price increase makes OS sims worthless.
Best Ice Ice ... you don't understand ... No one was supposed to be "renting them" in the first place ... See my quote from the knowledge base above, about what they, Linden Lab, said they are for. |
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Alicia Sautereau
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Join date: 20 Feb 2007
Posts: 3,125
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10-28-2008 00:50
From: Ishtara Rothschild Yup. Their logo should look like this: *rolls over and dies of laughter* /needs a new logo...pweeeeezzzzeeeeee hope LL hasn`t trademarked it allready *snicker* |
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Ithilwen Moonites
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Join date: 27 Oct 2008
Posts: 10
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10-28-2008 00:50
From: Ishtara Rothschild Yup. Their logo should look like this: Hewwwooo... that is too sweet!! yes i totally agree ^^ |