Upcoming Changes for Adult Content: Answers to Questions

Unfortunately, there was nothing in your post to suggest that you were being ironic, so I could only interpret your quote at face value. There you go - Barthes 'death of the author' perhaps - words only have meaning according to how they are received. Likewise, I read nothing in Baudrillard's piece to suggest it was a conscious goal on Disney's part; rather I saw that as the author's analysis.

But as you say, we're well off topic, so maybe we should let it rest in peace.

This is troubling. Very troubling. I don't rent on the mainland, but I can certainly understand how the thousands of mainland mall-space renters have to be feeling right now. They are the ones *really* getting screwed by this measure, having to completely put their businesses on hold while they *hope* some kind souls set up a new mall in Pornodelphia and don't gouge the hell out of the rental fees!

This is yet another prime example of how this whole proposal will hurt businesses and negatively impact our economy.

You may be right, and you certainly make a good point.

Unfortunately the disjointed nature of this thread, spread out over days as it is, is making it very difficult to track the full context of individual posts. I wish, when quoting, vBulletin included a link to the quoted post so you could easily go back and see what that post was responding to, and on and on, backtracking to get a fuller sense of the overall context.

I would like to see what consumer laws have actually been broken as i am not up to date with Ca consumer laws and i bet LL lawyers worked on this before it was announced for that reason. As has been said LL are probably guilty of bad business practices but i doubt laws have been broken. Yes I agree that the law of the land beats a TOS anytime. We used to get people ringing us at Adobe when i worked there complaining about the EULA again they didn't read the dam thing before accepting it. Not smart imho.

As i have always stated i do not agree with this move as it is structured now as i will be affected a voluntary move to start would have been better, but then the reason for why this is happening is not known to us apart from what LL have told us and bet that they have not been honest with us, rather they have just told us a truth.

As i said i may be totally wrong but reading on what has been said by LL if you advertise your property in search and i assume events it becomes a public place

I stand by what i said, if it doesn't break consumer laws then you play by LL rules. I will revisit my views once a judge in Ca has ruled that the TOS as it stands is illegal but no one yet has challenged them in this matter in a court of law, no one has yet as i think they realize they stand to lose the case in question along with a lot of cash, but it would be interesting to see what happens

These are the figures from my wife based on sales of silks and other adult related items that i posted on page 58 post# 868. These figures are Feb and March combined.



and this was from post #849 Page 57

I would like to know why the govt. needs to track people's teleports.

Otherwise, why would it have a clause at the end of the age verification that affirms all (RL) data may be cross referenced with that person's government? (My question is not as literal as it appears; bear with me.)

Why does, or would, the govt. care what people do in a video game? (No glib answers, please. It goes to the heart of 'why is this whole thing necessary if kids will not be entering SL any time soon?')

And if it has nothing to do with who goes where, then why connect age verification up with where someone goes in SL.

For those into privacy and against over-government, the choice is either, do not go to Porntopia or anywhere vaguely 'adult' which includes many roleplay zones (I do not mean naked ones); or commit identity fraud; or give up the info and hope this nebulous entity "Aristotle" never leaks, misuses it, or no one in the future of FOREVER does the same.

Sorry but there is something undeniably creepy about connecting real life data for all time, with chat logs, teleports, etc. It's the same as connecting a camera to one's everyday real life movements, imo. It may be a virtual life, but some live the heck out of it all the same, and it should be private.

I know some are glib about it, and say no harm done in this. Well, the first opponents of a SS# based upon "Someone will be able to absorb your entire identity some day, to the point you will not even be able to buy a house afterward" were likely called paranoid/insane, too. Can't you see them mocked: "How can someone possibly steal an IDENTITY? I'm me. Look at me. Here I am. Here is my SS# - steal my identity now!" (raucous laughter) Well, today it is common. Now people mock those who have a hesitation to give RL info to be combined with VL. (New Porntopia! Now much easier to tell who does what.) Just because it isn't possible to conceive exact ways this may be abused in future, does not mean it cannot/will never be.

Can there at least be mutual disclosure? I.E. Where is Aristotle based in the world? Who runs it? Address and names please. What IS Aristotle exactly.

I suppose it's a vague feeling but read the way that (age verification beta) page is worded and tell me whether you feel creeped out by it too; and why or why not?

Every person who has their address and phone number in the local "white pages" so that people who want to find them and visit/call can do so easily. How is listing your SL dwelling in Search any different? SL doesn't provide a "white pages" Search to seperate personal from commercial "listings".

Anyone in my town who runs workshops, classes or discussion groups, coffee klatches or tot playgroups which are free can have free notices on most community TV channels, websites and small circulation newspapers...including a BDSM High Protocol workshop that's hosted by a Domme in her home once a month. How is listing a party or dance or event in my SL home in Events any different?

At this point I'm far more upset at the Pandora's box opened with the words "sexual intent" being used to decide between "Mature" and "Adult" classification and the fact that adults who have "Adult" furniture and toys in their homes are open to being AR'd as offensive content if they're caught using said equipment by someone camming into private spaces from adjacent sims or plots.

Nothing so far has shown me that LLabs has removed that threat from the table or that they even HAVE a clue what a massive clusterf**k they're about to unleash fi they don't tighten these definitions and get some common sense!

Morganna

Was told by someone with a private island that LL has given them about a month to age verify everyone.

Would love to know if that is the timetable LL has in mind before dropping that iron wall on us all.

I am an idiot in knowledge of US-laws, as european citizen. I have no idea about how things are working there. So I trust your infos, the infos of others here and some multiple developed analysis. But I agree with an idea from above in the thread, wich says somehow, that we rent there not only fun, but also a kind of workspace and a production-environment and a trading system. It is like we would be all one-man-/one-woman/small group -firms/business/mini-companies, in a micro-economical cicle. Wich is true, by even the fact, that I can put my EU-VAT-number in here, if I want, to safe some costs and taxes and to make my biz in here kind of official, if it goes not only about a few hundred L$. We rent the tools and the environment. Well, like renting an office and we use it as facility and office in many cases.

Then we work our butts off in planning, designing and creating things and placing and selling them on a real market, with real cash-flow and profit.

This is, from my view, also part of the contract we have with LL, to have a right and being able to do that.

If now, the company starts to destroy the - kind of - office- or workspace structure we rented, plus starts to deconstruct our own relations with our customers, through deplacement of our workspace and through new rules wich disturbing our biz models, then becomes the actual behavior of LL a dimension, wich is or could be a case wich can be seen by law, as violation of our rights and our economic abilities...-we rented there, ah difficult, my english is not perfect, but this I have read from these arguments above in the thread and I do agree.

Anyway. I didn't know that one single judge in CA ruled that the TOS in its actual form is illegal.

As you say, is this not helpful for us, as long this is not landing on a serious conflict at a higher court, but it speaks a bit about, that the idea that LL treats us not correct and fair and that we are trapped, is not so absurd.

I would love to see a kind of final fight about this at a court and to see who will win...

But however. Time will show. I think our present resistance against LL is legitimate. From many sides and views seen. Even - not only - but even from a perspective of law seen. because they change what we rented under specific conditions now over night and without serious negotations. They just dictate it and they do not follow any logical arguments against it.

What a brutal gang, hahahaha

Actually...

This is where things get dicey. LL does not charge a mandatory subscription for access to the game/world/whatever you want to call it. They do, however, charge some pretty hefty acquisition and maintenance fees for server space representing your virtual land. It gets even more dicey when you consider how much LL charges for whole, private sims. You are getting well into the realm of condominium ownership here. Tier alone for a whole sim can equate to some people's real-world rent or mortgage payments. Given this bizarre acquisition-and-maintenance fee structure that LL has set up, Renters' Rights can possibly be applied here. Yeah, it's quite a bit of a stretch; but LL's purchase and recurring tier fees take land "ownership" within SL beyond the basic charges for a consumed service.

It does - or, at least, it *would* if LL could ever be bothered to update the forum software.

It IS possible to see each subthread within this thread; that is, see who replied to what, though it is a bit awkward. Simply go up to "Display Mode" near the top of the screen, and select "threaded".

Bragg versus Linden (2007) is worth a look as it was a case where someone did take the TOS to court. LL's lawyers originally submitted that the case be dismissed on the basis Bragg did not have a case because LL only acted in accordance with the TOS. The judge overruled that on the basis that the TOS were unbalanced and unfair (the parts the judge objected to have not been substantially changed). LL then tried to invoke the TOS clauses stating that any arbitration must take place in California and subject to Californian law. The judge again overruled that and insisted the case was heard in Pensylvania and subject to its state laws.

In the end this case was settlted out of court so no legal ruling on the validity of the TOS was ever made. However, it certainly sets the precedent (if it were needed) that the TOS can be challenged in court *if* you are willing to go to the expense of time, money and effort to do so (and remember that you aren't guaranteed to win, and should of course seek legal council before doing so).

Matthew

Kathrine, go check out the "Please Ignore and Let This Die" thread in Resident Answers. If *that* doesn't break the software (even in its current dysfunctional state), *nothing* can!

False advertising is an offense in most jurisdictions. UK law is particularly strong on this, perhaps more so than US law (and Bragg v Linden 2007 set the principle that regardless of the clauses to the contrary in the TOS, a case against Linden can be brought under the jurisdiction of the consumer, not just under CA law).

However, the cost and effort of any case would not warrant the returns in many cases.

However, Linden's practices of changing the terms of usage and the pricing so dramatically does not consitute good business practice. Any large company considering investing in SL, will take this into consideration.

Matthew

This was roughly the basis of the judge's objections to the LL TOS in the Bragg v Linden case. The TOS as they stood (and currently stand) allow LL on a whim to disable or delete an account which may represent a significant investment of time and money. Moreover, unlike say web hosting where you could just download a copy of you website and upload it to another providing, LL prohibits you from downloading a complete copy of your account, and even if you could there isn't really anywhere else to upload it to (this is still true today although OpenSim has moved on quite a lot since).

Thinking about it, if a company or unversity checked with their lawyers before making any significant investment in SL, the lawyers would almost certainly object to the one sided nature of the TOS, and recommend them not to use SL. I suspect that the TOS are a much bigger barrier to business and education use of SL than adult content on the mainland.

Matthew

I have never said the TOS could never be challenged and Bragg because of his case forced LL to change the parts that were wrong so some good came of it, even though Bragg was trying to rip LL off imho over the auction system IIRC.

Fact is people used to threaten Adobe all the time with legal action especially when they realized they didn't own the software they had purchased, but had just paid for a license to use it. People i believe will always try and challenge things like this, if some of these people are so sure of themselves why don't they put their money were their mouths are and take LL to court, i hold that it is not happening because most are barrack room lawyers

Personally i think its because a lot blur the fantasy and the reality here and expect the laws of the world to protect them in game, but the only laws possibly being broken are consumer laws and i am also sure that the LL legal team would have looked at this in detail before announcing it, but we still do not know why this happening apart from what LL have told us, as i maintain it will be interesting to see how this all pans out and whether its a fatal blow for LL's big plans, whatever they are

Unfortunately the fact that Bragg wasn't entirely on the level did tend to obscure the fact that the TOS were in part successfully challenged. That said if Bragg is to be believed he did tell a Linden about the flaw in the system and that Linden alledgedly claimed that exploiting the flaw wasn't a problem - however later another Linden disagreed. For a similar reason, I worry about those who have been told by Blondin that their land is mature and not adult, in case another Linden (in response to an AR) rules differently.



I would also posit that the cost involved is as much if not more significant reason. Unless your investment in SL can be valued in (at least) 6 figures, the time and money involved wouldn't be worth it regardless of how strong your case would be (or you think it is). This is really the strength of EULAs.




I'm less convinced. LL clearly believed that Bragg had no ground for a case (either on legal advice or not), and were clearly wrong. Moreover, when LL introduced VAT on EU customers it initially tried to apply this immediately to mainland tier despite it being paid in arrears. Any lawyer with any knowledge of the EU would have told LL that VAT does not work like US sales tax. If at the beginning of the month, someone in the EU agrees to pay 80 euro at the end of the month, then contractually they owe 80 euro at the end of the month - no more, no less. If VAT is due on that 80 euro it is take out of that 80 euro, not added to it. When LL originally tried to do, was having agreed to charge 80 euro at the beginning of the month, was to then when it came to actually taking the money, to charge 90 or more euro. They quickly changed this, so that the VAT charged would only start from the next billing period when it was pointed out that this was a clear breach of contract.

As such I find it very hard to believe that the LL legal team looking at the way LL originally proposed to introduce VAT charged before they announce that policy. Also given that LL clearly had not considered any of the issues in moving complex builds between locations (Blondin seemed surprised that this wasn't a simply link, take, rez operation), I'm not convinced they would have done due legal dillegence beyond "well, our TOS says we can do anything so...".

Matthew

This is just unbelievable, never have I seen a decision by LL that has affected so many people, or caused so much debate on the forums.

The whole idea even of what they are attempting is unbelievable. Moving everyone like this, swapping land, dealing with censorship issues, defining adult content.. etc.. It's a massive task that would bring even the most well structured, professional and well organised, companies into little pieces under the weight of the amount work. LL is committing themselves to a task that is larger than any other they have already, in a very long list of "Things they should be fixing yesterday!". Why?!

They can't even manage to fix the simple problems they have already with Second Life, and yet they are going to try doing something that even Google and other large companies haven't been able to do! Ha!

Ignoring for a brief moment our positions on this. Ignoring if we're for the change, or against it. If it benefits us or forces us to move and suffer loss of business. Ignoring our personal positions on this. Honestly, who actually sees LL succeeding in this? Who actually sees LL managing to achieve such a large task? Who sees LL managing this change any better than how they are managing the rest of their problems?

My personal opinion is, those who are against this change like myself have nothing to worry about. I really doubt that LL will be able to enforce this policy even, they can't even enforce the ones they have already, why would this be any different?

However.

The 2009th prize for the most best and most fair tradesmanship will not go to LL.

Even not an award for best costumer service.

But a higher ranking for the Big-Brother-Award and a nomination for the Al Capone Memorial Prize (if such a thing exists), is imaginable.

On the customer side we will see if the customer base can be trainer-staff and collective coach enough, to make the lab fit for a victory in the 96 meter bankrupty sprint world-championships, but it seems we have no trainer-lizense for that, we amateurs... and also we need that they survive, if we like to be longer in here , even while then being reduced to the maximal minimum in our attributes.

It is in our own interest as avatar-steerer, to pack the things up, walking the trail of tears in direction Ursula, up up and away to the north-eastern part of the map, making all things and ourselfs PG-Mature-Adult-splitted ready, going schizophrenic while that and no doctor in near... - and taking the terminal thankful upper-cut given by LL after that with excellent humbleness.

As ever.

Thanks for the tip. I almost said something before about displaying entire series of nested quotes, but quickly realized that we'd end up with single posts that spanned multiple pages in all their nested glory. This sounds a bit better, at least to turn on temporarily to track sub-conversations.

morning everyone (ok, just)

First of all, a quick point about age verification and npiof.

I've been dipping in and out of the XSL threads and what I'm seeing is that despite the arguments that they shouldn't be doing it as it's and adult platform, worries about data security etc etc the herd are beginning to age verify through Aristotle.

in a way they're more representative than us and assuming (wry grin) LL actually managed to sell this to the rest properly then we should seee more and more of this.

here are a couple of the threads for your viewing pleasure:





there is an element of demonstrating "that it works ok for me, what are you whining about?", but that's the nature of that forum.

So, whilst we may not know how many will ultimately verify (despite not having to if LL hold payment details) we know a proportion of them will and we're pretty well aware that LL will do whatever they want, however they want, can we get back to the logistics of the move?

my questions for Blondin for tomorrow are:

(for the third time What is LL going to do about XSL?

How will people end up on the land swap list? Will it be voluntary or will they be selected by LL

how much time will we be given to select and move everything over before dual tier kicks back in or will it be that once the swap is done the legacy mainland reverts to LL and we're given a certain amount of time to remove our items.

will you offer to buy people out of their current mainland if they do not wish to relocate and do not want to retain their current holdings?

will there be a facility to consolidate or increase the land holdings?

and are you going to have beaches and snow???

By now these should not be hard questions to answer.

and the output of that rescheduled meeting held on friday would be nice

There is so many things that could go wrong in what LL is suggesting. So many that I'm not sure if I even want to be in SL while they are doing this. I might just pay up my rent on the sim for a month and then log out while they are doing this.

Think back, to every major change or operation LL has done to SL. Which ones worked out perfectly? All? Most? Some? ANY??

The only decent question to ask here and now is, how bad is the damage going to be once this is done? Because I have no doubt in my mind that there will be permanent damage done. So how bad will it be? Mild? Heavy? Enough to deter players from being in SL? Enough to scare away potential business?

What could go wrong?

They might not swap the land correctly for a start. What if LL decides that regardless of what size land you had before, now you'll only have a 4096m parcel?

What if LL decides regardless of the number of prims you had before, now everyone will all be given the exact same amount when moving from Mainland to Sexland?

What if the move takes 2-3 weeks? Will clubs be able to be shutdown that long? Will shops? Malls?

How will land be given out? Will it be open for everyone to buy? What will happen then? How will this affect mainland and sexland prices for land?

What if LL poorly defines what is adult content? Don't move enough into Sexland, you risk not fixing the problem and having screaming parents still complaining. Move too much and Sexland will quickly run out of room! Or become excessively laggy.

What types of locations will be placed where? Surely LL wouldn't place two busy clubs directly next to each other. Or will they? How will parcels be handed out!? Where will who go where? What if two competing stores end up directly next to each other?

What about the shapes of the parcels even? Not everyone's clubs are built and exist on perfectly square parcels. Some clubs are L-shaped or even more complex. Will the new parcels be the exact same shape and area? If so, how will LL handle EACH of these moves individually? How many people are going to work on this move to ensure it happens quickly? What if the club is built for a certain shape of land, and made to fit to the exact shape and height of the terrain? Will the terrain be transferred? How will it be copied? What if a club was built to match the theme of a piece of land, say a beach or snow like what was said before. Will the new land look exactly the same? No?

If the land people are pushed into isn't exactly the same then clubs and business's will have rebuild their places. That could mean hiring builders, paying wages to them and redesigning of the building etc. What about these owners of clubs and business's? Will they be covered for these costs? What about the cost of loss of business? Unless LL manages to make these moves happen instantly, how will a business or club get away without losing money? As it is, they will all lose money anyway, because the new location will make all the old landmarks people have for their places not work. Then there is the cost of marketing the new locations.

If LL does cover all those costs, how will they even be able to work out those expenses? Will LL go through each and every location that is moved, look at the average income they were making and pay them that amount for the duration of the move and for a short time after? How could LL even afford such a thing? They can't afford it and wouldn't be interested in doing so! So does that mean we're all just accepting that people will have to lose money because they are in the adult industry?

There is probably a good couple of thousand things that COULD go wrong here...

If anyone here really thinks that this will happen quickly, in a day or something, and with no problems, and no expenses to any clubs or business's, they must be dreaming. This is a fantasy land, but outside of that fantasy there is the reality that these are real business's. And LL is actually suggesting to move them. This isn't just copying some files from one computer to another. This is moving large sections of land and buildings.

My concern is that LL will try anyway - make a complete hash of it for a few months, then something else will attract their attention, and they'll forget about it (but not have fixed half the bugs introduced in the technical side), with the result that in terms of their broader objectives nothing will have been achieved, but they'll have disrupted a lot of people, broken a lot of things, and generally damaged their reputation.

Matthew