Feedback on Ad Farm post

I guess we'll just have to wait and see how Jack Linden defines extortion then won't we?

It's not just unpopular, it's simply WRONG. It's a stupid and incorrect logical fallacy that because we have a rule to correct a wrong that we have surrendered all of our freedoms. Hell, even the US Constitution acknowledges that the balance of Freedom is Responsibility. Freedom doesn't simply mean "Do what thou wilt", it includes the obligatory "As ye harm none" as well.

As for respecting private ownership, where does that come in when people are targeted and harassed by land extortionist parasites? Yeah sure, freedom to choose to be harassed over here, or over there?



Actually, first it was "bankers". "Casino operators" were hit, not because of Linden Lab, but because of changes in the RL LAWS where LL operates, so they don't belong in your "slippery slope" argument. However, in the case of both "bankers" and the "advertising industry" (I use both terms EXTREMELY loosely; neither truly existed in SL), we had no regulation, and people DEFRAUDED and TOOK ADVANTAGE of other residents's goodwill CONSTANTLY. MILLIONS of L$ have been lost to parasites in both sectors.

Honestly? They're both big problems that INDEPENDENTLY need to be addressed. However, the grid's been pretty stable for some time now, but even if it was falling over every damn day, the ad farming and extortion problem would STILL need to be addressed, because it STILL would have been a problem. Community anger hasn't been transferred at all; it goes wherever it is attracted.



Is that so? Kindly explain to me how the following is not destroying the look of the landscape:

http://s334.photobucket.com/albums/m411/NeverSleepGroup/SecondLife/?action=view&current=AustinH.jpg

Even still, the whole point of strategically buying plots, chopping them up into 16s, and placing them to maximize irritation to adjacent landowners is a slimy attempt to entice them to pay the ridiculously high price to get rid of the holes.

Let me ask you a question. Let's say I buy a nice piece of land for L$10/sqm. It has a 16sqm hole somewhere in the middle of it. Not near a road, not really much in terms of overall placement. WHAT makes that single 16sqm patch of land worth MORE than L$10/sqm to anyone? HMM? If you answered "the desirability of the owner of the surrounding land to get rid of the hole", then you've won the L$64,000 prize! There IS no other reason. THAT is the whole point of extortion, whether there is anything on the plot or not is COMPLETELY inconsequential.

Hatred of those who are selling holes for MARKET PRICE? Dude, L$100-L$1000/sqm is NOT "market price". Ask Jack.. current average price for otherwise unremarkable mainland is around L$6/sqm right now. I would LOVE for the parasites to sell me those microplots for MARKET price! I'd snap them up in a heartbeat. However, we all KNOW why that isn't happening, because they are all priced SO FAR ABOVE "market price" as to be completely absurd; hence "extortionate".

How does ANYone justify that kind of price? Well, it's easy when you consider the INTENT of the people involved.. GREED and GROSS OPPORTUNISM. I assure you, all of the microplots that are priced near market value get bought regularly. The ones priced extortionately aren't. Yes, a handful are bought because people pony up the extortion money, thinking they have no other choice than to pay it. Are they happy, though? Do they think they got a fair deal? Of course they don't. They know they got ripped off. ASK them sometime.



Obviously, Linden Lab will, based on pricing averages and trends. However, I don't expect them to judge on price alone. Apparent and obvious intent should and will be taken into account. Unfortunately, market forces won't ever fix the extortionist problem because of the predatory nature of those involved in it. Just like market forces won't ever stop fraud and price gouging. Look at all the opportunists heading for Louisiana after the latest hurricane. Look at all the domain name "land grabs" for scam sites set up to take "donations for the victims of Gustav". In RL, it's simply sickening. In SL, it's less sickening, but definitely no less disgusting.

Actually, I have a better idea. Whoever has a problem with enforcement of a fair market let's ship off to Ancapistan.



Well, sadly, the majority of folks don't agree with you. Freedom comes with the responsibility to practice said freedom within fair limits. Just because you have the freedom to buy and sell land doesn't allow you to use that freedom to extort and harass other residents. That's what this whole issue is about.

Also sadly, your "slippery slope" fallacy doesn't work in this case. Price regulation has nothing to do with "virtual communism", and there is no direct (or really, indirect) correlation to it, at least that you have remotely demonstrated. It won't be the End of the World (tm), well, except to those whose world solely revolves around the proscribed activities. You'll have to forgive me if I fail to shed a crocodile tear for you all.

Yes, SL competition is growing, and I am looking forward to it, too. I look forward to the day where I can live in a virtual world which is blissfully free of ripoff artists, griefers, and other virtual trash, and focus on what is important: creativity and socializing with people in a positive, constructive way. I promise you, that is what other virtual worlds will offer that SL hasn't, which is why LL is realizing that they better get busy cleaning the place up before everyone leaves for truly greener pastures.

Finally, I have a question for you: do you think you could get away with your "business" on ANY OTHER estate in Second Life? Do you think that Caledon, or even Dreamland would put up with people cutting land and/or grossly overpricing microplots? Why or why not? Why do you think Linden Lab should allow it on THEIR mainland estate anymore?

This sums it up pretty well. People seem to forget there's a lot of different governmental and economic structures besides Democracy, Communism and Capitalism.

I kind of like being referred to as a noble anyway, even if it's as a lower one lol.

Once again, on these rules, i'm worried about "Technicalities" biting us in the ass.

Our notices bulletin board is "up high". But our entire area is kinda "up high".

(Disregard the 'ad farm' text - I realize theyre talking about networked ads with this latest change - the image was made before this was certain.)

Example.....

However there -is- talk of height and size restrictions.

And, recently, I did add a bit of glow to one of our signs (our LW5B / 5th birthday sign) - but I really do think it's tastefully done and not at all annoying.

I guess I'd just have to say that it's important to remember that a "one size fits all" won't work...

I just hope this is taken into consideration before universal rules are laid out on new mainland restrictions. We have not had ONE complaint on our signage in the five years we've been here. Nor does any of it serve as anything but notifications to our patrons, regulars, and visitors.

If there's any license or agreement required to continue doing what we're doing in SL, with LL, I hope they'll let us know before taking punitive action. :|

I agree that it would be best to regulate the prices of for-sale 16m plots - it's a whole other area, and I realize the Lindens may decide to address it separately - but land price gouging and real estate scams are yet another big mainland problem in need of resolution. And 16m plots are a tool often used for these scams. For example, I have seen at least one reference to the so-called "donut hole" scam - where a 16m plot with a FOR SALE ad sits right in the middle of a 512m plot, deceiving people - especially newer SL residents - into paying a high price for a 16m plot because they believe that a 512m plot is what they are paying for.

You know, you think you are paying for a donut, but you're just paying for the hole, that's the scam. Its a good example because it's just one example of micro parcels abuse where ad farming is part of the problem but not the whole ball of wax.

Most other micro parcel abuses seem to be addressed in the Jack Linden blog already and fall under the category of griefing to induce a neighbor to buy at a much elevated cost (forced note card giving, noises, lights, spinning, encroaching ban lines, etc on an immediately adjoining micro parcel with a very high price)

That is, of course, if 16m plots aren't eliminated altogether, which I would find acceptable.

If they aren't eliminated, their use does need to be regulated.

Jack Linden asked what the limitations should be on licensed advertisers:

PLACEMENT

It would be nice if the licensed advertisers had to leave some "ground room" or walking space around the ads. Currently, "ad towers" not only block the view, but create all kinds of "traffic blocks", interfering with foot traffic, and with air travel when they are super high.

They pretty much depend upon having someone stand around on someone else's land to view them. Take, for instance, the stack of three rotating sex service ads that appeared one day on a 16m micro parcel next to our Kuumba Artist's Cooperative. You could see them from inside of the office - until I changed it so no windows face in that direction - and you can still see them from the live performance stage, and from the cooperative living village, and from one of the two galleries, and these are all parcels, mostly 1024m ones, I own surrounding three sides of the rotating sex ads.

Of course it also gives the false impression that the ads are somehow part of the coop.

I think ads should be on a separate "roadside" or "sidewalk" area of where people can walk up to them, etc. This would help negate the problem of making them seem to be endorsed by whoever their neighbors are.

It would also help lessen the "roadblock" effect of randomly placed advertisements.

It would make them look more like a natural part of the landscape.

Either the Lindens can develop plot that already have roadside/sidewalk area that are designed for these billboards, or the advertisers can be regulated to have to leave some kind of walkway or passage.

Other than that I have nothing to add that has not already been said.

Save your breath mate and do not even try to suggest that you know what the market price is. You do not. You have no idea, only market does. Pricing is up to the owner, it is simply not your business.

Michi, I wouldn't worry about your ads there. The whole point of what the ad farm policy is (or better be, anyway) about is where advertising is placed specifically to attract the eyeballs of people not on the advertiser's property. Your ads specifically (ONLY, I would daresay) target people on your own property. I can't see how anyone not on your property could see your ads, let alone have a reason to complain about them.

In the case of adfarms, that is SOLELY what they are there for.. to attract attention of everyone else. That's why they are wrong and should be removed.

The thing that these so-called "advertisers" don't get (and forgive me if I am starting to sound like a broken record here) is that they are being parasitic on others' efforts. IE, you and your neighbors have gone to great lengths to build a wonderful and fun place for people to participate in. They show up and place ad towers as close as possible so they can "soak up" attention from your customers. They are profiting off of your efforts and goodwill and giving NOTHING in return for it. That is what makes them parasites. Now, if they PAID you for access to your customers/visitors, that would be a completely different situation. However, since that's not the case, it is clear what their motives and the effects of their efforts are.

Funny, but I don't recognize your name as the owner of any plots. But your message has someone else's FootPrince all over it. Face it, your game is over. Why don't you rejoin the human race and offer your plots at the market - yes, market rate of 6 L/m and let people do something useful with the land you are sitting on?

You're kidding, right?

You are funny, mate. You do not even read properly what Jack Linden says.

Well, "mate", you can believe whatever you want, of course.

Enjoy your "market pricing" while it lasts. The REAL market will be here in just a few short weeks, so be sure to maximize your profits before it hits. While Tier on 11376sqm isn't particularly expensive, it sure ads up quick.

Thanks for letting me to believe and decide my own way of doing things.

Exactly. And believe me - whatever you think, no such definition will ever be adopted. Any price regulation will be economical suicide and also a precedent for further regulation.

Bad analogy. We are not talking about moving your object outside of your property. We are talking about vodka at your property. Smirnoff at my property, even sitting visible on the garden table is not your business. Fullstop.

Quite the opposite: LL is starting to run the Mainland as a business--you know, Capitalism--and microparcel extortion just doesn't pay the bills on Battery Street. That is, you're not cost effective to them--your practices cost them vastly more revenue from failed Mainland auctions and abandoned parcels than the pittance of tier it generates. They're acting as rational agents in a free market.

Did you really expect them to keep subsidizing the scam forever?

Well, if i look at Mark's profile, all I see is a quote from Matthew's gospel and an attack against Barack Obama.

As someone coming from a family with a Jewish mother and a Catholic father who loved each other immensely, I am perfectly aware of what intolerance means however, and I resent it when the Catholic Church of Rome doesn't mind its own business in Italy, where I live, thinks their way is the only way and interferes with our government's decisions. That is the same for some Christians who would like to get us back to the dark ages.

Esther, before defending someone who wants to sue LL because he thinks his Christian ads are better than anyone else's, please verify if there is no hidden motive behind this anger.

The statement "You must know some different Christians than I have met" comes across to me as being just as prejudiced as the statement "You know, you are not like 'those other' black people I've met" to me. Or "You must know some different Muslims than me".

It's prejudiced.

I wish Linden Lab and Mainland residents all good luck.

However it is simply impossible, to my honest opinion, to have the same beauty of living on mainland, as on well lead private estates. The reasons for this are simple.
- People with 'bad' intentions will always find ways. To have a good livable place you need people who can actively monitor Looks and Lag and have the power to take actions. LL simply does not have the money to provide enough real people watching the Sims.
- Not everything can be put in rules within a reasonable time and with the speed LL changes rules, it will take years. After setting the rules, real Balance in enforcing, takes a lot of time, effort and speaking to landowners.
- Like in real life, in the end you need an ethics judgement in all cases that slip between the hard rules. Again LL, and its current mainland tier prices, does not have the money to provide enough professional people for this. I also dare to say, they do not have the knowledge to balance good and communicate it well

Covenants on private estates help getting this nice living surroundings but, the more rules and guidelines there are, the more work it becomes for the land management. I do not think that LL can compete with well lead private estates in the end. If people want to live in great looking places, eventually they will choose private estates. That is if private estates will survive, which is yet to be seen, but that has nothing to do with being able to have better livable surroundings.

It will always be a very delicate balance between
"LANDOWNERS FREEDOM" and "COVENANT RULES"
The difficulty, and the reason why in the end a sort of "ethics comity" has to have final saying is because it is very human to want to have strict rules and hard enforcement for everybody as long as it does not limit yourself

I think there is no simple solution to get mainland good looking and working again. Adfarms and extortion trade prices are only two of the many issues. It will be very hard to make good rules, and enforce them with good balance, without hurting the freedom of the "good" landowners.

Still it is good news for mainland residents that finally this little first step is now taken by LL and for the sake of all goodwilling mainland residents, I really hope it helps at least someway.

Regards

Sylvia Sonoda
Large Estate Manager

You are mistaken. Revenues coming from small plots are among one of the most valuable cash streams for Lindens. This is exactly the reason why they only talk about ad-farming, if you really follow what Jack Linden says.

Well I can't disagree with your take there Talarus... We've had to deal with 'farmers' ourselves; as I mentioned once before, we eventually had to pay L$20,000 for a 16m2 in the middle of our buildout just to stop what it was doing. (particles, sounds, spinning, flashing, etc).

((Now I wouldn't say that this adjusted the market, going forward, to $20,000. The views on economics like this will likely never be reconciled: there are plenty of folks who will say there is no such thing as extortion or a 'ripoff'. i.e., "if the guy paid $20,000 for the used car that was really worth $2,000 - its fair, because thats what it was worth to him." -- In the real world, that's not really how it goes, but i'm not here to argue that as it will never end.))

On our border, we still have one similar one right now. Reaching above our trees, as if it's actually there to advertise to people specifically on our property. (I highly doubt anyone has purchased anything from them because of it.)

I just -hope- LL is a good arbiter of this policy. What you said is certainly our intent: we are only aiming for folks on our own property. But since we are large, and have a lot of traffic (87 people attending a music event last night-- which likely would have been half or one quarter that if we did not post the event on our notices board ) the space and area has to be proportional.

We certainly don't want to step on anyone else's toes. But as I told Jack, sometimes hashing out a "one size fits all" policy can be pretty rough.

Maybe we could have a system where variances could be applied for, like in real life. That way, discretionarily, certain items could be taken on a case by case basis even if they dont line up "to the number".

I.e., observing the "spirit of the law" versus the "letter" of it. I know LL's resources are limited, but I guess sometimes it comes down to the neccessity of human interpretation.

Though I would say -- generally -- with ad based extortion, for most folks, "you know it when you see it".

A better balance to aim for may be "Landowners' common sense in regards to benefit of the doubt" and "Covenant intent in regards to strict verbiage of the covenant",

but I know people don't like nuance -- even though it's usually what everything comes down to.

You are whining & bleeting about communism and pricing 16m2s at L$ 9900 and than you call me funny ?

Lol, do you wear one of those red round noses all day ?

Good point. It is just a bubble.

ARE WE MARCHING TOWARD VIRTUAL COMMUNISM?


My opinion will be very unpopular but I have to say it clearly: more controlling and regulation will inevitably lead to virtual totality. Many residents constantly call for content and price regulations without realising that lack of respect for private ownership and individual decisions can easily destroy the freedom of choice for everyone in our virtual community.

First it was casino owners, than bankers, now it is advertising industry - who will be the next? Tell me honestly - what is bigger problem - stability of the grid or an ad in your neighbourhood? You know the answer. It is smart to transfer community anger to the less important issues. We all know that most of the small plots have no advertisement. Therefore they can not destroy the look of the landscape. Where is the problem then? I tell you where is the problem - it is endless hatress of many towards those who dare to offer their land for market prices. But what is an extortion price? I have a definition. It is a price I can not afford or I am not willing to pay. The guy who is not ready to sell me his
property for the lowest possible price is the extortionist or a greedy land baron. He is bad..

Who will judge prices of others? Residents? Linden Lab? There is only one entity which has always the right answer - a market. If you do not like the price, do not buy it. Especially when you have other options. As simple as that. Whoever has a problem with the market economy should move to North Korea.

I personally sell many small plots for market prices and I am not shame of that. Why should I? Sometimes I am successful, sometimes not. Despite the fact that I strictly follow the rules created by Lindens, I am receiving many IM's full of hatress, jealousy and anger on a weekly basis. All because I 'dare' to use my right to create a market price.

I believe regulation of advertising (content regulation) is rather bad than good because it goes against freedom of choice principle, but possible move towards price regulation will have disastrous concequences and will lead to virtual communism. It will be the end of Second Life (and Linden Lab). Most people probably do not realise that this virtual world (and the LL) only exist thanks to commercial (not recreational) activities of its residents. If any price regulations will take the place in the future, it will be the end of SL as we know it. But do not worry - the SL competiton is growing.

Yeah right, if you don't like something then call it communism... that is SO OLD!

Adfarmers ruin the landscape and charging 10k for 16sqm to the person who owns all the land around it is extortion.

You love adfarmers? get your own sim and sell 16 sqm plots and place ads on them.