SL closing down??

Heh, 9 am on a weekday sounds like an odd time to show something like this. Wonder why they chose that hour? I'm sure it will be idiotic enough to make people decide against turning on the "telly" at that strange hour ever again.

Argh! My PVR didn't record. Well it did, but something went wrong and now I have a zero MB MPEG file.

The first time this ever happened.

It was 1am SLT too because it did take place at 9am this morning.

Well, both Raynor and I tried to get into the sim for an hour and couldn't....so no news from me either.

While I'm pretty sure SL won't be around in 5 years time, I suspect that this will be due to commercial pressures rather than any direct government or criminal investigation.

However, the OP's concern isn't actually out of the realms of possibility and the activities of some within SL are drawing the attention of criminal investigators and child welfare organisations across Europe (I can't vouch for the US).

In November 2007, Ceop (the UK Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre) publically admitted that they were investigating SL specifically and were not particularly mollified by LL's assurances that all content was "user created".

The Ceop chief executive said

"We'll infiltrate these rings whether they are in Second Life, in chat rooms, using social networking environments, peer groups or outside local youth clubs in the Real World".

The specific reference to SL rather than a generic group would seem to indicate that they have identified a specific problem and are investigating as we speak.

Also while in the UK the Sexual Offences Act covers "pseudo images", there is a loop hole as far as purely computer generated images are concerned. This loop hole is about to be closed by legislation going through parliament.

This will make any depiction of sex with a minor in SL (whether actually between RL adults or not) illegal within the UK.

There is also an ongoing investigation by the German police which was prompted by allegations of RL child abuse being initiated within SL.

Since the LL servers are housed in the US, it is likely that any activities undertaken within the SL program running on those servers will not easily be indictable in Europe. It is however certain that the download of images which appear to involve minors (yes even if they actually involve consenting sado's.. oh sorry adults) will be a criminal offence.

It is also not outside the realms of possibility that given external pressures LL might follow Microsoft's lead of closing down MSN chatrooms in 2003 because they couldn't guarantee the content or the activities of some of their users.

No, SL is being shut down because George Bush thinks that Philip Linden is hoarding weapons of mass destruction there.

thats absurd. cant you see from the posts in this thread that everyone is sick of hearing about this issue? stop harassing adult babies. jesus wouldn't approve.

Lol...well now.. what's absurd Swan...? Have I incorrectly stated the facts? Is the UK's policy towards the protection of children at odds with your own..?

Or maybe you think a society shouldn't perceive the protection of its children's freedoms as more important than those "enjoyed" by a minority group of adults who get their kicks by pretending to have sex with children..?

Bear in mind that I'm giving the benefit of the doubt here, when in fact there was a thread on this board only a couple of days ago where the argument was actually put forward that the freedom to traffic in RL child porn was a question of civil liberty...

But hey you're right..*shrugs.. best not to talk about it. Let's get back to more important topics..mmm. I hate bling.. don't you..? Oh .....and.. "Woot!"

you are a very sick person. stop lumping adult babies in with real life pedos. i would like you to know im a survivor of severe child abuse in real life and was also molested by my stepfather. i have never in my life hurt another human being of ANY age. i do not condone child abuse. i have volunteered in abused womens shelters in real life. and i speak out against child abuse any chance i get.

i would never turn a blind eye to rl kiddy porn if i saw it in Second Life. i would report it directly. i am in fact the very last person on this earth you should be making accusations against. for someone so determined to defend children against child abuse, you sure go out of your way to condemn the very people you claim to be trying to protect. that makes you a hypocrite.

the fact is youre more likely to find real child predators in McDonalds or a toy store then in Second Life. but thanks for trying to destroy this platform and for creating pain for all the adult babies youre so convinced are evil. if you want to target for real life child porn im behind you 100 percent. but when you attack adult babies in Second Life that shows me you dont care about other people at all, regardless of age.

Hello Swan,

Well firstly I'm sorry to hear about your past experiences, and I apologise if you feel I was alleging anything personal in my posts.. I think if you read them again, it's pretty clear that I'm not.

Perhaps what I would say is that since you are someone who has survived child abuse in RL, and since you're someone who has spoken out on the subject in RL, I'm surprised to hear that you would like a thread whose topic is relevant to be quiet on the subject of legislative and legal remedy.

Also, I understand that the subject is painful for you, but I'm not sure that sweeping and ill founded statements are helpful. I'm not sure if statistically you are more likely to encounter predatory adults in MacDonalds or SL.. even if it was the case, does that mean SL is a lesser evil and should be overlooked..?

Finally, while I have every sympathy for your choice of RP in SL, an adult who RP's as a child in SL.. is an adult and not a child.

I know that this distinction does form part of the argument that anything consenting adults do among themselves is fine and since no children are really involved you're good to go.

I don't particularly accept that argument but where there is a concern, is where fantasy crosses the line into RL. Hence worries about online grooming, the blurring of fantasy and reality in some vulnerable minds and the trafficing of RL pornography in support of SL fantasy.

Also I made no generalisations about child avatars, I simply said that there is a subset of the "ageplay" community who do enact sexual acts with children and as part of that fantasy do traffic in RL images of Child Porn. This is a statement of fact and is unacceptable.

I can see that my postings upset you, but they were made in response to the OP and actually were intended only to give an overview of the situation in the UK at the moment.

no you are very wrong and misinformed on the subject. thats what im trying to tell you. even if someone decides to role play or age regress using a small avatar in what may or may not happen to include a sexual situation, that is a vastly different situation then say two residents transferring real life child porn between each other.

sexual age players do not use role play to train for real life child abuse. the avatars are not realistic representations of actual children. both parties are consenting adults and are aware that both players are over 18. its used either a form of bdsm or as a type of age regression therapy, depending on the needs of the small avatar involved. at no time is it ever represented as an abuse scene against a real life child. therefore it is not possible to be used as training for such.

and as i pointed out before, many of the adult babies in sl are child abuse survivors. so actually what you are doing by rallying against them is a huge disservice to the exact type of people whom you think you are standing up for. adults who were abused as children.

Nope. The specific reference to SL was simply because Sky News had specifically targetted SL (the Wonderland scandal) a few days earlier. That was the whole reason for CEOP's statement. They had been approached by Sky News.

Which again was the result of sensationalist reporting by Report Mainz. An investigation with which Linden Lab are cooperating, and an issue that was widely covered on this and other SL forums. Do you have any specific information about the German investigation? I haven't heard anything about it for a long time.

Firstly, LL wilfully co-operates with overseas police investigations. Go research the Report Mainz affair for more on that. Secondly, it is widely accepted that Microsoft shut down all those chat rooms because they weren't making any money from them. The people who used them didn't pay a penny for the privelege and surprise surprise, MS were making a loss, so it wasn't worth their while policing that kind of environment. Particularly considering it welcomed children anyway.

Conversely, LL does make money from European users, and the Second Life main grid is an adult only network. Combine that with what's already been said, and it seems highly unlikely it will go the way of MSN chatrooms. If anybody indulges in illegal activity or uploads illegal content, it's pretty damn tracable, and LL will co-operate with overseas investigations into said activities or content.

age players have been slandered and mistreated by this particular reporter. this story is FULL of lies. and even during the debate they refused to let any age players have a voice or participate. How do you have a debate with only one side?

These people aren't interested in the truth. They are only interested in lining their pockets by exploiting a small group of adult babies. if the story had anything to it then where is all the rl child porn? they dont even have simulated sex in the story. There is nothing incriminating at all in this story. only thing in that video is voice over innuendo. This person should be flat out banned from Second Life for trying to draw negative attention to this platform and for complete harassment.

Swan, at the end of the day you have, by necessity, an internally rationalised view of the activities some people engage in within SL.

I'm not doubting that the circles in which you move are exactly as you describe and are as supportive and groundbreaking from a therapeutic viewpoint as you suggest.

I'm not making any generalisations about people who use child avatars, but it is a fact that sex with child avatars does frequently happen in SL, and that RL images of child abuse are trafficed in support of those fantasy scenarios.

There is also a substantial volume of both legal and psychological case history which strongly suggests a link between immersive fantasy and subsequent RL action. Hence the reason that child support agencies around the world are very concerned at the increasing prevalence of this type of RP and "acting out" within online communities.

Whether you agree or not, my original post simply pointed out that various criminal and child support agencies around the world are concerned about the activities of certain specialise groups within SL and are apparently infiltrating and investigating these as we speak. This may have an influence on the future of SL.. directly or indirectly.

This "concern" isn't simply my concern, and if I'm "evil" then it seems that many child support agencies are too.

There is?

Links please.

Isn't it interesting that once these exposes hit the airwaves, and the dirt is dished, they rarely follow up with the results. They love to finger point, but never tell us what has been done to address the issue. The scandal mongers never come back and say "This was discovered and it was investigated and dealt with appropriately." I guess it's not ratings worthy.

i have never once in 4 years as a resident of Second Life ever come across real life child porn. im not saying it doesnt get exchanged here. im just saying i think its more rare then you are insinuating.

i am completely in disagreement with you about age play leading to real life child abuse. you have no proof of it. none of these experts can prove it. show me and prove it to me and i will wash my hands of it and take away my support for adult babies here. but you cant do that. you are making correlations that you have no authority making. and in doing so, you are condemning an entire group of innocent residents.

and if you have the support of the international community in your slanderous claims, then you are all collectively guilty as charged.

I would have to call you on your use of the word "Frequently". In my 18+ months in SL, I have seen 1 instance of a child AV attempting to engage in sex. And that AV was promptly banned and AR'd.

As to your very last statement. Yes many "Child support agencies" are evil. More concerned with increasing their own budgets and power than they are the truth. But then the truth doesn't put groceries on their table and a roof over their heads.

"It was investigated and we (the reporters) were shown to be fear mongering idiots." Doesn't help sell advertising.

What do you mean "Nope"... the quote is accurate, your inciteful personal opinions on his motivation for making such a statement.. well they're just that..



Sensationalist reporting or not, the investigation is fact and in progress. Of course LL will cooperate, no one is suggesting that they will support criminal activity within SL.



Again, I was talking from a legislative and legal viewpoint, even if LL fully supported UK and German investigations, it would be pointless without a crime having been committed within the perpetrators own country.

Again, I accept your inciteful analysis of the MSN decision to close it's chatrooms. I did however only state the reasons espoused by Microsoft.

At the end of the day guys, I brought to light factual information from the UK and Germany and the fact that these authorities themselves have publically admitted to investigations within SL.

Agree or don't agree, rationalise all you want. Most of society thinks depictions of children engaged in sexual acts poses risks to children... and that any community which tacitly supports or makes excuses for the trafficing of Child Porn should be investigated.

I'm not here to play silly little games with you Walker, nor to educate the ill informed.

If you really want to know, then do the research yourself.. it's pretty pervasive.

If it was just something else.. then touche.. and well done..

Dear Lord, do you really believe this twaddle ?

You make claims then refuse to provide the evidence to back those claims up?
The burden is on you to prove what you say, not on others to disprove it.

no one in the Second Life community, not Linden Lab or sexual age players, condone, support or make excuses for the trafficking of real life child porn. but thats not what youre talking about. You are talking about persecuting a group of adult babies for their consensual rp together. You should be very ashamed for targeting innocent people.

Lol.. the burden of proof isn't on me.. what on earth would make you think that?

If I say the earth orbits the sun.. do I have to prove that?