SL closing down??

I bet it would be better for Business than the Goddamn Starbucks that most have right now.

/me waves to Walker.

Aww! I'll be in bed then! I'd *love* to be there.

Mari

I'm always leery at the term "Panel of Experts". It usually translates into shills for one side of the argument or the other.

That was a good description of our country before the civil war. We were a voluntary collection of individual countries called states. But lincoln's federalism crushed individual state's rights, even their right to secede from a voluntary association. Did you know the only way the constitution was passed was because several states got the right to secede guaranteed. It was supposed to be a major check on the growth of the federal government. If it became too overbearing, the states could vote with their feet and leave the union.

The states of Virginia, New York and Rhode Island included a clause in their ratifications of the Constitution stating they had the right to withdraw from the Union if the new government should become oppressive. It was on this basis they aceded to the Union. Virginia cited this provision of its ratification when seceding in 1861. But since the Constitution is based upon the principle of co-equality -- all the states are equal in dignity and rights, and no state can have more rights than the other -- the right of secession cited by these three states must extend equally to all the states.

New England states threatened secession on several occasions before the civil war. The concept was well known.

Before 1913, Senators were appointed(!) to jealously guard the STATE'S rights from the federal government. Since then, popular vote decides who is Senator, thus reducing the Senate to a overglorified house of representatives, worried about the popular vote, not guarding the state's rights.

So now we have an overbearing federal government, while the states beg for tax revenues. The states are no longer anything comparable to what they once were; sovereign nations joined by common cause.

We are a brutal military/industrial complex. The states are vassels, providing cannon fodder as necessary.

Yup. I expect it to be a nicely hand-picked panel of people who will give exactly what Sky wants.

I'm gonna hafta get some of the brit kids there.

Mari

especially if it's been assembled by Sky News.

Contradiction in terms is the expression that leaps to mind.

Oh for Christ's sake. I was actually getting ready for an interesting discussion on federalism vs. states rights and then you threw in that part at the end. What a bunch of poppycock.

Nonsense, that last sentence doesn't invalidate the previous paragraphs at all.

Just pretend it isn't there

Edit:

On second thought...you think the US is not a giant military/industrial complex?

If anyone attends dis, um, can I have a transcript?

Mari

I will be at work, alas. I would love to expose them as the hideous hypocrites they are.

ok then. I think the US is not anywhere near as brutal as it is made out to be by its detractors, nor do I think the federal government considers the states to be vassals whose purpose is to provide cannon fodder. That's just silly and it ignores the reality of both our system of government and our socioeconomic place in the world. We have certainly not been perfect, but brutal military/industrial complex using its slave states to produce cannon fodder for its evil and violent plans for world dominance? Or whatever you were getting at. At any rate, I just completely disagree.

Regarding the states rights issue, I actually do agree to a point. There has been a significant erosion in states' rights over the last 100 years or so due to a number of political changes. However, my point in my post was to explain why we have several layers of laws in the US rather than one unified system of laws. The states are seen as separate political entities and as such, have the right to institute their own laws. The limitations on those laws have increased, and we don't have states rights at the level we did in the early 1800's, but there are still significant rights that individual states have with regards to self governance that you don't see in other countries. The OP seemed upset about something. It's hard to tell exactly, but it seemed like he was confused about why there were different laws from state to state. The reason is that we are still a union of states, even though the individual states are not soveriegn countries. I'd argue that they never really completely were sovereign, although I suspect I would face hot opposition from anyone who is from a state with "commonwealth" in its title.

Note I'm not taking a position on whether the erosion in states' rights is a good thing or a bad thing. It's complicated. Changes in technology, commerce, travel, etc. have made federal oversight more important, but at the same time, regional requirements make state governance even more important. It's not a black and white issue.

Blah. Talk about a thread hijack!

Ooooh.....I LOVE Harlock! I have a whole collection on tape, and yes, it's one of the few reasons I still have a VCR! (But hey, I have the whole original series on DVD too!) As a kid, I was SO scared of those women that burn like paper.....

I was actually talking about myself there-I AM a (RL) bi girl, and a more female-oriented one at that, and it just doesn't attract me-and none of my bi friends do either. Interesting to hear that some apparently do. Just don't generalise, please.

Brenda!

1am SL time is 9am UK time. Looks like they're timing it to coincide with the Sky News Today show with Dermot Murnaghan. I think I'll set the PVR.

Expect a couple of tabloid journalists on the panel... and an MP in favour of draconian measures to save the children; because every saved child (or journalist dressing up as a child) translates into votes from News Group International's torch-wielding readers and viewers.

Fun fun fun!

Yes, our socio/economic place in the world. We will see increasingly brutal methods of keeping us there. Look at Iraq for example. Our eroding world political support will increasingly be shored up by military might. I think it is safe to say that we have already ruined our economy by the weight of the debt incurred by the little foray into Iraq. Remember, it was supposed to be a liberation that would last a few weeks or months with the joyous people wecloming us as liberators from a brutal regime? The cost was supposed to be a few tens of billions. well we are passing up 500 billion in costs as I write this. total costs are estimated to be in excess of 1 trillion. Plus the costs of a permanent occupation. All this for a country that was absolutely no threat to our sovereignty. Of course, this is not a violent or evil example in any way.

About state rights.
The Us is not the only country where the staes are able to pass their own unique laws. German states for example:

Unlike other federations, the German States retain the right to act on their own behalf at an international level. They retain the status of subjects of international law, independently from their status as members of a federation. This unique status is enshrined in Articles 23, 24, and 32 of the Basic Law. But German state's rights are being eroded as well, its not something unique to the US.

Gee, you'd think we hadn't brought down one of the most vicious dictators in the world to the acclamation of the vast majority of his subjects. You'd think that, when the dictator knew he ws going to die anyway, he hadn't admitted to one of his captors that he was going to rebuild his inventory of weapons of mass destruction once he got the UN inspectors off his back. You'd think that, faced with the unexpected anarchy and violence that erupted there, we hadn't resisted the easy course of washing our hands of the mess and instead stayed to attempt to put the country together and stabilize it at the cost of thousand of lives and hundreds of billions of dollars. You'd think our soldiers hadn't fought bravely and hard - and it appears successfully - to prevent the most horrific examples of terrorism from being validated by driving us out and inspiring nut groups all over the world (not just Islamic extremists) to use the slaughter of innocents to impose their will. You'd think the world is not going to need a bulwark against an expansionist and eventually nuclear, militantly aggressive Iran intent on aiming missiles at Israel and dominating Persian Gulf oil.

But then, those plain facts don't fit the present narrative of the political left wing, or of their vociferous apologists.

We're hitting a controversial can of worms here! Good thing I have to leave to go home from work now..........could be teetering on the edge of one fat post that is sure to set the forums on fire!

I'm so sorry I involved myself with this. In fact, I'm sorry I even logged in this morning. I give up.

Uncle.

Edit: In fact, I think I need a self-imposed time out. I'm going to take a break for a while, go play some poker, log onto SL and play and just give up here until it's fun again. I'm tired of feeling like I have to defend everything I say like it's the Alamo or something. I just want to go back to having fun.

Yeah, sorry. But I'm tired of letting blatant nonsense go by unchallenged. I'll be happy to go back to dealing with the OP and SL, if the thread takes that course.

Yup.

Okay wait ..

SL is being shut down because of the non-declared War in Iraq?

I thought it was due to the preponderance of glory holes the US has, over all other nations of the world...and how they're apparently "legal" in bookstores.

Don't give up. I like your posts. *hugs*

I'll try to be there. My DVD recorder will tape Torchwood anyway.

Hey wait, I thought it's 1 p.m.?