What are Ginko Bonds worth? - 2

I'm sorry you only see "insults and insinuations" in what I have said. Clearly, there is quite a bit more to it than you are coming away with but, *shrug* I can only lead the horse to water; I cannot make him drink.



Uhhh OK; whatever. EVERYONE else in this thread has been debating facts and , IMNSHO, has completely destroyed your silly assertions from square one. I guess it comes to no surprise to you, since it is contrary to your arguments, it MUST be that they aren't sticking to the facts and debating it with you, they are just "insulting and insinuating".



Yeah, you're right there, someone else is responsible for the comparison of the US currency system to a Ponzi scheme, so I apologize for making it out like you said that, but your assertion that CSS is a Ponzi scheme is no less ludicrous, for the exact same reasons.



At whatever cost??? Heh, don't flatter yourself. Spending a few minutes to discredit your arguments completely and totally seems to be a good investment, if for nothing more than the entertainment value involved.



Dude, of COURSE you get blamed for it. You made an incorrect assertion and argued it into the dirt, even AFTER being presented with FACTS from AUTHORITATIVE material contrary to your stance REPEATEDLY. It was nothing more than your game of "Yes it is! No it's not!" with about 10 other posters. After the second or third time, people get incredulous at the obtuseness and naturally start wondering about the sanity of their opponent.



I'm not HERE to debate it with you. It has already been beaten to death, and you're being written off as a loss since, no matter how wrong you are, you won't EVER accede to that fact and just keep on going.



No, what I am doing is laughing AT the BAD ANALOGIES, just like I said. I just shake my head sadly at the rest.



Why in the universe would I want to compare something that is an obvious apple with an obvious orange? What relevant wisdom could I possibly gain beyond what I already know about the comparison? Hmm? Maybe you think the very act of equating unrelated things leads to some sekrit wisdom regarding the nature of the universe, but I don't share that belief. Sure, it may be fun for a mental exercise, but I can find MUCH more entertaining subject matter for that kind of effort.



Dude, there is NOTHING to UNDERSTAND about your arguments here. You've made them, I've refuted them; so has just about everyone else. There's nothing insulting or insinuative about pointing that fact out. Being told you are wrong isn't an insult, nor does it insinuate anything other than YOU ARE EFFING WRONG! What is there to change my heart about over that?



Well, if nothing else, you are persistent.



...which changes nothing in this debate.



Only you would consider people backing up their arguments with facts against your stance a logical fallacy.



Why? Why would I even think that going through yet another round of beating your argument to a bloody pulp would bring you to a radical breakthrough in self-realization? It's easier to just point back to the earlier parts of the thread and this link:

http://www.google.com/search?q=bond+face+value+definition&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

Educate thyself.

I agree.

I think the Price is heavily dependant on what people think WSE will seize in case of Ginko defaulting.

In that case, it's trading too high.

Holy f*** v****! have we actually gotten back on topic?!??!

Whats it trading at? I thought it was still dropping?

.07 yesterday. Last is .09 according to the site.

Oh? After that entire message and to think that would be icing on the cake to win your point.

Do read:

http://financial-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Perpetual+Bond

It says a "bond with no maturity date."

But lets go back to your reference: face value - "The nominal dollar amount assigned to a security by the issuer."

http://www.investorwords.com/3301/nominal_value.html

There is says: nominal value - "The value of a share when issued."

That would be what you could redeem it for if the bond had a face value. Look again at the definition of "perpetual bond."

"Perpetual bonds are not redeemable but pay a steady stream of interest forever."

Again, lets go back to the definition reference you provided:

"For a debt security, face value is the amount repaid to the investorwhen the bond matures."

You missed the part that perptual bonds never mature.

How much are their WSE seizable assets again?

I counted 9,434,449.99L ($35,335.01 USD) estimated securities holdings inworld, but my list was not complete. Would need to add up the other stocks. Haven't done that yet. My best guess without doing more math is about 50k USD max for inworld stocks.

Date Bid Ask Last
2007-08-20 00:00:00 0.1815 0.1889 0.1850
2007-08-21 00:00:00 0.1801 0.1860 0.1856
2007-08-22 00:00:00 0.1721 0.1862 0.1822
2007-08-23 00:00:00 0.1690 0.1865 0.1839
2007-08-24 00:00:00 0.1719 0.1801 0.1816
2007-08-25 00:00:00 0.1768 0.1800 0.1775
2007-08-26 00:00:00 0.1700 0.1791 0.1745
2007-08-27 00:00:00 0.1696 0.1791 0.1740
2007-08-28 00:00:00 0.1747 0.1847 0.1828
2007-08-29 00:00:00 0.1740 0.1866 0.1793
2007-08-30 00:00:00 0.1809 0.1868 0.1860
2007-08-31 00:00:00 0.1687 0.1822 0.1755
2007-09-01 00:00:00 0.1648 0.1776 0.1744
2007-09-02 00:00:00 0.1654 0.1734 0.1727
2007-09-03 00:00:00 0.1621 0.1700 0.1636
2007-09-04 00:00:00 0.1410 0.1586 0.1506
2007-09-05 00:00:00 0.1435 0.1492 0.1455
2007-09-06 00:00:00 0.1243 0.1433 0.1372
2007-09-07 00:00:00 0.1258 0.1390 0.1354
2007-09-08 00:00:00 0.1052 0.1233 0.1205
2007-09-09 00:00:00 0.1113 0.1200 0.1155
2007-09-10 00:00:00 0.0777 0.1031 0.0942
2007-09-11 00:00:00 0.0949 0.1069 0.1038
2007-09-12 00:00:00 0.0839 0.0968 0.0916
2007-09-13 00:00:00 0.0753 0.0828 0.0781
2007-09-14 00:00:00 0.0757 0.0872 0.0851

Timestamps are in UTC
Each row represents one day. Figures are the average of several readings throughout the day at regular intervals.

Then it must not be a perpetual Bond, becuase at some indefinite point in the future Nick supposedly plans to pay them off.

Please, not another round... it just. does. not. matter.

Is there an extended history of major shareholder activity? I saw Tyrian Camilo buying up in small increments. I am sorry to say I am not terribly sympathetic if he lost a ton of cash in this deal.

SO

198,191,184 total Bonds / Total Debt at 1$

$9,434,450 in assets

So it should keep dropping till it gets to about a 6 cents.

It may raise to 11 cents by next month. Expect it to float at 8 cents except for power play ripples. Its momentum right now has already shown that its not going to be a pump and dump.

Based on trading volume, one might get some buys in at between 6-7 cents.

Sure, its 45% drop in the last 3ish weeks would definitely show that.

It has hit 1 cent, so one could say it is up from 99% loss.

I find it particularly amazing that you can go through that cursory of an analysis and still come out believing that you even remotely had a clue.



Irrelevant, since that point has never been in contention.



I missed nothing. YOU have failed to demonstrate YOUR assertion "That would be what you could redeem it for if the bond had a face value". Nothing in ANY of those definitions says (or even IMPLIES) that perpetual bonds have no "face value".

The reference does not say "face value is ONLY the amount repaid to the investor when the bond matures". In the sense it is being used there, the sentence would more properly read "the amount repaid to the investor when the bond matures is the face value". They aren't trying to redefine "face value" (unlike you), they are simply pointing out WHAT value is used to determine repayment of a matured bond to the investor.

Every bond of every type has a "face value", which is exactly this:

"The value printed or written on the face, as of a bill or bond."

Even perpetual bonds MUST have a face value, for this one reason (emphasis mine):

"Why It Matters:
Face value is a crucial component of many bond and preferred stock calculations -- INCLUDING INTEREST PAYMENTS, market values, discounts, premiums, and yields.

As shown in the example above, the interest on a bond is usually calculated as a percentage of face value."

The example listed on that page isn't a perpetual bond, but GPBs are a perfect example of this fact. They have a "face" or "nominal" value, which is used to calculate interest payments, hence:

“Each Ginko Perpetual Bond will yield L$0.03 or 3% of face value per quarter.”

GPBs do NOT pay interest on their "market value" or any other value. They pay interest on their FACE VALUE.

Correct. My bad.

Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention that point.

Perpetual bonds are still callable at their *gasp* FACE VALUE. They don't mature, but they can be paid off. That's why Nick P is prevented from buying them back at less than their face value, since he is effectively calling them. It is also why they cannot ever be traded for more than face value, since they are still callable at face value by him at any time. He is not obligated to pay market price above face value to call them.

LMFAO

Look at the trade data. It hit 1 cent. The averages still show the lowest value for the last 30 days as 1 cent due to that fact.

Every read the Montley Fool?

You're right. I've deleted my post.

you mean motley fool