As You Like It - Men Becoming Women

YES!!! And in many areas of my life.

The largest problem is that 'marriage' has a meaning to many religions but is used for many non-religious things in this country (i.e, the financial and benefits aspects).

Personally, I think that we should just let the religions keep 'marriage' and use it as they see fit, and that for all non-religious uses we should ALL have 'civil unions'.

Ancient Mesopotamia:
"Contract of Marriage, Sixth year of Nabonidus, 549 B.C.

This document is dated in the sixth year of Nabonidus, and is a good example of marriage with a dowry.

Nabu-nadin-akhi, son of Bel-akhi-iddin, son of Arad-Nergal, spoke to Shum-ukin, son of Mushallimu, saying, "Give as a wife Ina-Esaggil-banat, your daughter, the virgin, to Uballit-su-Gula, my son." Shum-ukin hearkened to him, and gave Ina-Esaggil-banat, his virgin daughter, to Uballit-su-Gula, his son. He gave to Nabu-nadin-akhi one mana of money, Latubashinni, Ina-silli-biti-nakhat, Tasli-mu, and the outfit for a house with Ina-Esaggil-banat, his daughter, as her dowry. Shum-ukin has given to Nabu-nadin-akhi Nana-kishirat, his slave toward the one mana of money of the dowry, instead of two-thirds of a mana of money, at the full price. Shum-ukin will pay to Nabu-nadin-akhi one-third of a mana of money, the balance of one mana, and he shall receive his dowry completed to one mana in what it lacks. "
Fordham University
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/Mesopotamia-Contracts.html#Marriage

In most of my posts
....

How does marriage predate every Christian religion out there?

Yes, but the oldest know copies of the Torah and/or Old Testament are about six thousands years older than that and the Torah predates Buddha and other Eastern religions by thousands of years also.

Maybe we need to look at cave paintings?

And? Christianity started 2000 years ago, AFTER Judaism. Maybe you missed the info on ketubbot that I posted above.

The names of the two stone lions in front of the New York Public Library are Patience and Fortitude.

How does marriage predate every Christian religion out there?

You may as well be pissing into the wind. Oryx. She's not hearing anything but herself on this.

...which are both sorely needed when venturing into this thread

How would it be defined as rape if they are one in the same? Equal?

I wanted to add something else. Catholics and Lutherans and perhaps others see marriage as a 'sacrament' while most or all other Protestants do not. We see it as "God said a man most leave his Father and Mother and cleave unto his wife." Wife has always meant woman, with breasts and the whole shebang. A sacrament is something else and not part of my life nor do I even want to judge what a sacrament is or isn't.

Ancient Egypt (219 BCE):
"Here’s a standard marriage contract that was found among the numerous records left by the ancient Egyptians. It contained:

* The date (the year of the reign of the ruling monarch)
* The contractors (future husband and wife)
* The names of both sets of parents
* Husband’s profession (wife’s rarely mentioned)
* The scribe who drew up the contract
* The names of the witnesses

Then the details of the settlement followed. Here is the beginning of a marriage contract from 219 BC:

"The Blemmyann, born in Egypt, son of Horpais,
whose mother is Wenis, has said to the woman
Tais, daughter of the Khahor, whose mother is
Tairerdjeret: I have made you a married woman.
As your woman’s portion, I give you two pieces of
silver…If I dismiss you as wife and dislike you and
prefer another woman to you as wife, I will give you
two pieces of silver in addition to the two pieces of
silver mentioned above… and I will give you one third
of each and everything that will accrue to you and me."

The finished document was given to a third party for safekeeping or kept among the records of the local temple. "

From an Egyptian website
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/bride.htm

So what? What does this have to do with the price of tea in china? It isn't about anyone telling you or your church who should be or not be married in your church. It is about whether or not a particular set of couples may be married anywhere, period. There happen to be many Unitarian Universalist churches more than prepared to marry those that don't meet your particular set of standards, in as much we find those standards quaint and antiquarian. It is about time you 'Christians' let us do so.

Here's the deal. We won't dictate your services, mythology, and rituals and you don't pass laws that effectively do so to us.

Again, to be specific, no church is being told that they have to conduct marriages that are unacceptable to their dogma or doctrine. You can restrict marriages to those that meet your lofty standards of acceptability. Evidently this doesn't seem to seep through into the argument.

And, by the way, as a former member of the ELCA, which is with the Missouri Synod one of the two major Lutheran churches in the U.S., the two holy sacraments are Baptism and Communion. Marriage is a holy covenant if done in the church, and a church rite. But not a sacrament, although perhaps that status is pending given the ELCA's drive for common service with the Roman Catholic church.

That's not older than the oldest know copies of the Torah which are about 4000 years older than the above?

That's not older than the oldest know copies of the Torah which are about 4000 years older than the above? And, I don't get your point as to how the above would help same sex marriage as the above clearing defines the sexes as one male and one female for marriage? Unless a son is not a male and a daughter is not a female?

TORAH IS NOT CHRISTIAN.

Yes it is. In my Protestant religion we would better be described as Judeo-Christians. The Torah is part of the Old Testament -- the first five books of The Old Testament IS THE TORAH! We don't throw the Old Testament away in Christianity.

Chris·ti·an·i·ty [ krìschee ánnətee, krìstee ánnətee ]


noun
Definition:

1. religion that follows Jesus Christ's teachings: the religion based on the life, teachings, and example of Jesus Christ

2. holding of Christian beliefs: the fact of holding Christian beliefs or of being a Christian

3. Christians as group: all Christian people considered as a group


Avawyn, Jews are not Christians. Hindus are not Christians. The ancient Romans, Greeks, Eygptians, and Mesopotamians were not Christian. They all had marriage contracts dating BEFORE CHRIST.

The Old Testament is based on Torah, yes. But the Christian Bible ALSO contains an additional section, called The New Testament, which is completely separate from the Old Testament. The New Testament covers the birth, teachings, and death of Jesus Christ. If you believe in Jesus Christ as your savior, then you are a Christian. Jews do NOT read the New Testament. Torah does NOT contain the New Testament.

The old reflects the new. You can't truly understand Christianity without the old. Why do you think all Bibles include the Old Testament? Just 'cause they like to use up paper?

Judaism:
"For over 2000 years Jewish law has required that every husband present his wife, at the time of their marriage, with a marriage contract or ketubbah, guaranteeing the wife's financial rights in case of the husband's death or divorce. Over generations, various local customs found their way into the legal text of the ketubbah and ketubbah decorations reflected the Jewish art of each locality and period. Ketubbot are therefore a rich source of material on Jewish history, customs and art. The fact that, as legal documents, ketubbot contain exact dates and place names allows their absolute identification with specific communities and periods. "

From the Jewish National University and Library
http://www.jnul.huji.ac.il/dl/ketubbot/

Ancient Rome:
"The consequences of marriage were —

1. The power of the father over the children of the marriage, which was a completely new relation, an effect indeed of marriage, but one which had no p742influence over the relation of the husband and wife. [Patria Potestas.]
2. The liabilities of either of the parties to the punishments affixed to the violation of the marriage union. [Adulterium; Divortium.]
3. The relation of husband and wife with respect to property, to which head belong the matters of Dos, Donatio inter virum et uxorem, Donatio propter nuptias, &c. Many of these matters, however, are not necessary consequences of marriage, but the consequence of certain acts which are rendered possible by marriage.

In the later Roman history we often read of marriage contracts which have reference to Dos, and generally to the relation of husband and wife viewed with reference to property. A title of the Digest (23 4) treats De Pactis Dotalibus, which might be made either before or after marriage.

The Roman notion of marriage was this: — it is the union of male and female, a consortship for the whole of life, the inseparable consuetude of life, an intercommunion of law, sacred and not sacred (Dig. 23 tit. 2 s.1). But it is not meant that marriage was to this extent regulated by law, for marriage is a thing which is, to a great extent, beyond the domain of law. The definition or description means that there is no legal separation of the interests of husband and wife in such matters in which the separation would be opposed to the notion of marriage. Thus the wife had the sacra, the domicile, and the rank of the husband. Marriage was established by consent, and continued by dissent; for the dissent of either party, when formally expressed, could dissolve the relation. [Divortium.] "

From the University of Chicago
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/SMIGRA*/Matrimonium.html

Ancient Greece:
"In the seventh year of the reign of Alexander the son of Alexander, in the fourteenth year of the satrapship of Ptolemy, in the month of Dios.

Contract of marriage of Herakleides and Demetria.

Herakleides, a free man, takes Demetria, a free woman of Cos, as his legitimate wife from her father Leptines of Cos and from her mother Philotis, bringing clothing and jewelry (worth) 1000 drachmas. Let Herakleides provide to Demetria everything pertaining to a free wife.

(They said), "We shall (reside) in the same place wherever Leptines and Herakleides, deciding together in joint decision, decide." If Demetria is discovered doing any evil to the shame of her husband Heraklides, let her be deprived of everything she brought (to the marriage); but let Herkleides prove whatever he sues Demetria about before three men on whom they both agree.

Herakleides shall not be permitted to bring in another woman as an outrage to Demetria, nor have children by another woman, nor deal deceitfuly in any way on any pretense, Herakleides against Demetria. If Herakleides is discovered doing any of these things and Demetria proves it before three men whom they both designate, Herakleides shall return the dowry of 1000 drachmas to Demetria which she brought and let him indemnify her in addition with 1000 drachmas of the silver (coinage) of Alexander. Let the execution be upon Herakleides himself and upon all the property of Herakleides, both on land and sea, for Demetria and those executing along with Demetria, as if from litigation legally completed.

This contract shall be valid in every respect everywhere, as if the covenant had been made there—wherever Herakleides may produce it against Demetria, or Demetria and those executing with Demetria may bring it out against Herakleides.

Herakleides and Demetria shall be in control, keeping their own contracts themselves and bringing them out against each other." (circa 310 BCE)
http://www.kchanson.com/ANCDOCS/greek/elephmarr.html

There's lots more where that came from, and that's only "Western" society...