ESLers in Second Lfe - How can they be helped?

ESLer = Those individuals for whom English is a Second (third, fourth . . .) Language

I am apparently notorious in these forums for my criticism of ESlers, which is quite unfair; I am actually critical of *anyone* who fails to present their questions, answers, views and opinions here in a coherent, comprehensive and unambiguous fashion, thus wasting everyone's time. In fact, if ESlers flag up their status I tend to be much more sympathetic to them, whereas those who claim that English is the first language in obvious contradiction to their usage attract appropriate derision.

This thread is an attempt to rectify the balance to some extent, although I must admit to a selfish motivation, as perhaps participants may be encouraged and helped to take more care with their posts to their own benefit and that of everyone else.

I'll start off with a suggestion that ESlers might consider indicating that English is not their first language in their forum profile (perhaps in 'location') to pre-empt erroneous assumptions and put a warning flag up regarding potential errors of interpretation.

Pep (Waits for the criticism of what is a constructive suggestion )

Why do you present this in such a way as to make it appear that people who's native language is anything other than english are somehow in need of help?

It was provoked specifically by this post /327/b3/339258/8.html#post2565995

Pep (A Spanish guy who asked for help here and also said he was trying to help other ESLers. )

you know about the profile field that is explicitely labeled languages?


it's on the "interests" tab for some reason...

As one of those ESL-ers, I do not feel the need for help to be honest.

Most of the time (if not always), people seem to understand what I want to say (despite the mistakes I probably make), so what is the problem?

To be honest Pep, I do appreciate many of your postings, because even as an ESL-er I understand where you come from. But what I do not understand is the emphasis you put on the fact someone has English as a first or second language. The teasing with words is fun, but this question of yours baffles me. Probably because I am an ESL-er

ESL?

It should be DAL

.. Differently Abled Linguistically

You should post something like, how can we help SLers that can ONLY speak English

My native language is Portuguese but I speak a bit of Spanish, French, Italian and i'm more fluent in English, so again I ask: how can we help those who speak ONLY English lollololololololol

Pep: trying to learn Pep's sarcasm heheheheh

Lance, are you an ESLer? Or do you genuinely not know the difference between the "Forum Profile" to which I was referring, and the SL inworld profile which *you* are talking about?

Pep (Of course it would help if people completed their languages section in their SL inworld profile - even if English *is* your first (only) language.)

"More fluent in English" than what?

Pep (You can offer to help me when I turn up in a foreign language forum - if I ever decided to visit one. )

Damn, I thought that Pep would beat me!! lol

Don't worry about it Marcel . . .

Pep ( . . . even EFLers miss my subtleties and nuances - and lots read things that aren't even there! )

I don't believe in violence, Nuno.

Pep (I had enough of it when I played rugby. )

*headslap* missed that.
*bangs head on desk*

no, English is not my Single Language.

I use a translator in Sl, not perfect but helps.
I do wish ppl would put their language in the space provided in their profiles so I can set mine up to the correct lang for them

I accept english as the "official SL language".
It's those people that assume, I would understand portuguese, spanish or french that are irritating me.
And the machine translated crap ? A crystal ball would be a lot more useful sometimes.

What would you suggest for those people where English is their first language but have difficulties in reading and writing?

Don't dsicriminate against those who are perhaps less fortunate because thats how I read your post.

It would be far more constructive to suggest what ways one can be helped rather than have them single themselves out just because it meets your criteria.

I also don't think 'ESLers' need help to be honest. If you can't speak English well, it might be good to hang out in your specific language community for a while, until you pick it up. (Which inevitably happens to at least some extent if you converse online.) Putting your native language in your profile might be handy for others, but in no way do I think you're 'obligated' to do so just because some people might not understand every single word you say.

English is not my native language either, but I consider myself fully bilingual by now. I was fortunate, because where I live all English shows are subtitled, so I was subconsciously learning English from a very young age. For people who don't get that much exposure to English it's a lot harder. I personally give major major props to all of those people for trying. I was taught French in school for 9 years and still can't speak it. Nothing makes you learn as well as hearing the language daily on television, which is the case with English over here.

I don't think your suggestions are that odd, Pep, but I don't see a need for ESLers to be 'profiled'. You'll notice soon enough if someone can't speak English that well and if they don't, they are more than allowed to make mistakes.

Ibtl.

We could all learn Welsh.

It's a sad fact that many native English people speak and write very bad English - so I don't think we have much room to be critical. It would be nice though, if ESL-ers appreciated that some of us get really fed up with seeing the English language butchered.

On the other side, native English speakers need to understand how deceptive English is for foreigners. Those whose first language is one of the Romance ones, immediately recognise the latinate forms of English and they think, "This is easy!". Those whose first language is one of the Germanic ones, immediately recognise the Anglo Saxon forms in modern English and they think, "This is easy!" Of course, English is really two languages rammed together and adjusted to fit - it's a complete minefield for the unwary foreigner.

You could always start to learn Portuguese, Spanish, and French.

Now, to be fair, there are some things that annoy me to no end. "Teh", confusing "to/too/two", and "they're/their/there" make me grind my teeth.

But written communication being what it is, I try very hard to understand what the person is actually trying to say. Usually it becomes apparent fairly quickly if mistakes are due to working in an unfamiliar language, or a native speaker being lazy.

ESLers don't need help. Everyone needs to understand that we are all trying to communicate with differing levels of fluency in whatever language we happen to be using at the moment. So my position is to say "focus on what is meant, not what is said"

Now, certainly, if the person asks to be corrected when making a mistake then by all means...correct away. IMHO, Second Life provides an ideal environment for language learning.

I am sure, LL comes up with something like SLEsperanto soon anyway.

Pep's been infected by Jig.

Jigitis! ...and we thought swine 'flu was the worse thing we could catch!

Should I put "American" in my forums profile as my language? Since I don't speak "English" I guess I should. I guess if I spoke "english" I'd be ok. On a side note, I just love to listen to Irish people talk. To my ear there is almost something musical about their dialect.