ESLers in Second Lfe - How can they be helped?

I am on record as saying that those with typing or eyesight problems or dyslexia should also put that in their forum profiles.

Pep (Those whose problems stem from laziness or sloppiness are a different matter. )

Nah! This is a practical and sensible question regarding a real, rather than imagined, problem requesting suggestions regarding which I have no preconceptions.

Pep (wishes the Spanish guy would pop in to the thread to give his views.)

I once spent fifteen minutes chatting up a Slovenian girl whose only English was "LOL", because she didn't have anything in her profile about languages.

Pep (Does that say more about my chat up technique rather than ESLers? )

PS I *do* have a competent second language but I would not claim to be bilingual by any means.

People with erectile disfunction should also list it in their profile.

(go ahead, don't be shy Pep. It happens to most men your age.)

"O, that way madness lies; let me shun that; No more of that."

It is difficult enough to understand what EFLers mean a lot of the time; trying to interpret the way in which someone from a different culture is using English has caused a lot of problems here in the forums, in my experience.

Pep (When I was on jury service it was the prime cause of a grievous bodily harm incident in one case.)

Google this

I suppose I could admit to priapism . . .

Pep ( . . . but I don't want to attract even more unwanted attention from desperate women. )

Until LL change their default language I'll stick to my current perspective, I think.

Pep (is concerned with effective communication, not good grammar. )

Meny people assume being a second language speaker and writer of English gives them the right to make mistakes. But the EXPRESSION of English and the MECHANICS of English are TWO different things.

So being unable to differentiate between THEIR, THERE and THEY'RE is laziness and an unwillingness to understand simple rules.

To write "HE" instead of "SHE" is an indication of ESL when the language the person speaks does not recognize gender differences as in CREE or DENE First Nations languages in Canada.

My First Language was never really one of my Grandmother's indigenous language since she was living abroad from a very early age, but she often found the English (and French) rules of gender confusing and even downright demeaning. I wish I had learnt my Grandmother's tongue when I was a tot.

Big Difference.

Oh good for you! You weren't too ashamed to go get some medication. As the brittish would say, "Good show, old man!".

You are straying off a really interesting topic - read my note above and get back to language. It doesnt always have to be about sex here.

LOL!

--
Aes

Isn't that what you and I are doing now though? We are certainly using English, and we are also just as certainly from different cultures, with our own vernacular and our own colloquialisms.

Communicating in any form requires interpretation and empathy between both speaker and listener (or more accurately in this venue writer and reader).

I hold that madness lies in insisting language be used in exactly the manner you expect it to be. Such insistence too often results in a discussion devolving into traded insults over some grammatical disagreement. I prefer to skip over those mistakes and continue with the original topic, and only questioning when I fail to discern the meaning of a statement.

ok...this has gone too far.

It's one thing to consistently flirt with me in the threads, and toss out the ESL remarks over and over again, as a pitiful attempt to get attention and engage in a flirtatious dialogue.....which is not working, by the way.....oh it may have worked, if you had not been so cruel to some of my friends......

.....but to start a whole thread! Maybe some women would be flattered....but have to say.....there comes a time when the attempts turn to blatant groveling for attention and wreak of desperation (no matter how well disguised).....and the attempts are.... how shall we say......less manly? Can a non-ESLer help me with the term I'm looking for here?

I know you're running out of time....because you fear the forums closing soon.....but really.....get a grip, man. This just isn't the place, and it's not fair to take down several dozen other ESLers in the process. Buck up and move forward. Get over it. Be a man about it, and toughen up.

Jig, I don't want to start a huge flaming disaster-ball here. But if memory serves, wasn't there an enormous flame-fest (involving this thread's OP) at the beginning of the year over your incessant use of "teh"? I seem to remember it was rife with accusations of laziness, and unwillingness to check spelling.

Just be glad you aren't Pueblo. You get to have a THIRD gender in addition to he and she. Imagine how that confused the linguists and anthropologists.


Concerning Pep's question, I believe exposure to language in its correct form and usage (by example) is the best way to help. I've been that immersed not native speaker, and just taking a whack at it and learning as you go builds a fine foundation. Of course, so does the usual written practice, which brings on the polish.

You can help them by learning their language!

Okay...I think your point about the difference between expression and mechanics of a language is key. After all, you can almost always tell when a writer is not native English, even when they are perfectly correct in grammar, spelling and punctuation. A native English writer can make all mannar of mistakes and yet there is no doubt that they are writing in their first language.

It is because English is actually very difficult to learn - the verb structures are more complex; the vocabulary is vast; the correct mix of latin and germanic words is utterly confusing to foreigners. A native English speaker rarely makes mistakes in these areas, although they may mess up everything else.

Or about carrying running feuds over from other threads.

I too cringe when I read poor English, be it authored by an EFLer or ESLer, but there is a world of difference between being dismayed by poor language skills, and jumping to conclusions about the mental abilities of those who do not express themselves well. ESLers can hardly be blamed if their English is not up to scratch: I only wish my Spanish, French, Portugese, and Mandarin were as good as THEIR second language.

Nor do I believe that poor English from EFLers always derives from either innate idiocy or laziness. Language is an index of class, culture, and (sometimes) gender. In a world, for instance, where access to quality education is NOT universal, it seems a bit harsh to nail someone who may not have had the opportunity to attend good schools, yet alone university, for their poor language skills.

And (yes, I know this will get me into trouble) there are cultural differences for which we need to account: different syntactical structures and vocabulary are sometimes legitimate expressions of this. Do Americans blame the English for their idiomatic constructions and expressions? If not, why should we blame someone whose background might be, for instance, Brooklyn or Brixton? No, I am not a 100% cultural relativist, but I also recognize that "the Queen's English" itself ultimately derived, in large part, from idiomatic popular language contributed, in fact, by MANY cultures.

In my humble view, the biggest problem with language in the forums is not control of grammar and spelling, but control of tone.

It has been my experience that those to whom English is a second (or third, or fourth, etc.) language are able to write better than many native English speakers. The main problem is see is struggling for an appropriate word. Don't we do that all the time in English too? *smiles*

In the U.S. it is well-known that the reading and writing curriculum of schools is sometimes not effective. I taught high school English in the early 1990s. By the time students came to me their writing skills were frequently not up to "grade level." In my classroom students wrote everyday and it was not something they had been used to doing.

People (even forum posters) learn by doing and doing often. They also learn by example.

Another thought: Many people may be decent enough writers, but frequently while posting to forums people don't re-read and revise. Also, typing skills (or lack thereof) can be the REAL culprit.

So to answer the question posed by Pep: Keep writing a well as you can and don't feel the need to constantly make others feel like what they are saying is less important because it isn't phrased properly or punctuated correctly. I repeat, people learn by doing. If someone stops doing because they are called out and embarrassed publicity then you've just cut off that one conduit to learning.

Once again you misunderstand me! My main concern is that the poster should take as much care as possible that his/her post reflects what he/she wants it to say - and perhaps try to indicate when there might be a cultural intrusion in that presentation, rather than something that arises because of lack of effort.

I agree that there *has* to be interpretation, but trying to do that in the absence of any clues is sooooo dangerous. As an example, I have noted any number of posts recently where it has appeared (to me) obvious (because of logical inconsistency) that the word "not" has been omitted from a critical position in a post. Or maybe the problem was a lack of logical consistency rather than sloppiness of posting? Either way, it would take further effort from me to determine the correct position, and it annoys me that I should have to compensate for another's inadequacies, about which you apparently feel less concerned.

Pep (is usually misinterpreted because of words he didn't actually say. )

I think "effete" may be the word you are looking for. Or maybe not.

Pep (But for once I did laugh with you, not at you. )

You can speak Polish?

Pep (I thought your second language was Walloonish?)

Some circumstances make derision quite inappropriate. In most cases, you will not be aware of the circumstances, and that can result in hurtful, unfair ridicule.

I know a resident who makes frequent grammar, spelling, and punctuation errors. English is his primary language. At one point, I made the same kinds of assumptions that many of us would make. Fortunately, I did not say anything derogatory about it to him or to others.

I then discovered that he was quite capable of typing impeccable messages when absolutely necessary. This led to another set of assumptions.

All my assumptions were proven to be horribly wrong.

Much later, I learned of the physical circumstances that prevent him from using two hands to type. Despite using the same hand for his mouse and to type, and having to look down at his keyboard while typing, he is someone who goes out of his way to help others inworld. I've been in a group when a newbie approached us, and I was amazed that the person who had the most difficulty typing was providing the most help.

He can slow down and type quite well when circumstances make that necessary. But because of the time and effort involved to add punctuation, make corrections, and type capital letters, his decision to not maintain faultless use of English is obviously the best one.

When I'm inworld, I sometimes set a timer for 10-15 minutes. During that time, I only use one hand for typing and using the mouse. I look down from the screen when typing, which causes me to miss much of what goes on inworld. I still haven't figured out how that friend of mine can build things in SL, using one hand for commands that require two keys, often looking away from the screen while in Edit, and working around all functions that require a keypress while moving the mouse. It's damn difficult, and it's a good reminder. I suggest that you try it, Pep.

lol, no although I did have some Polish language tapes many years ago. Holy Crap. I didn't get too far.

I do have some Russian too, but nothing for polite company Polish or otherwise.

Yes, climbing from beneath my chocolates and Chimay, I stand as a proud Walloon