ESLers in Second Lfe - How can they be helped?

I might give the topic a seconds thought if it were referring to inworld communications, where the face-to-face factor can truly make things more difficult... but this is a F'ing forum. One has all the time they need to decipher any improper verbiage that might happen, or ask for a clarification. If that's a problem or pet peeve for some, I'd suggest they pass on making comments about it and just skip the thread. I'm fairly positive the thread won't miss the derail, and nobody's going to think they're an idiot or whatever, for what they didn't say.

IMO ESL'ers who push past their comfort zones to learn the language as well as the ones we have here have, earn far more respect than people who would nitpick that effort from within their own English comfort zone. No matter what language it is, to stand entrenched in it and take potshots at those who come close without demonstrating perfect form and mastery is flat out wrong. There's simply no justification to be had that would make that kind of sick acceptable.

Hey, how did you do that??????

Oh, I see. Okay, I'll keep my initial surprise post in. Damn! I really thought you had ...

Since Pep is an English teacher and Lindens want education and schools here, why not get Pep to teach ESL students English and fulfil the Linden objective once and for all?

I can play the part of Lulu in that great film "To Sir With Love"

OR EVEN BETTER!

I can play the part of Rita in "Educating Rita" and we can get Pep to play the part of Michael Caine. And we can pretend in forums that he is really in love with me and is just frustrated by how brill I really am but how I am so enthusiastic and he's not coz he's jaded and defeated by his crappy life.

If you check my inworld profile you will see that I claim familiarity with French, Welsh and Latin. The latter two are irrelevant as far as your question is concerned, as there are no significant communities where either is necessary to "function". I am competent, but relatively out of practice in French, because I have no need to use it on a day-to-day basis. I do manage to escort gangs of my mates successfully (avoiding or resolving such issues as fights, VD, rip-off taxi drivers, ticket touts and police involvement) on the annual occasions of our pilgrimages for rugby internationals or stag weekends in France ("Paris in the Springtime" brings a completely different image to my mind than it did to Cole Porter) and I am pretty confident that I would thrive, rather than merely function, if required.

And I will use this opportunity to make my point yet again: I do *not* criticise ESLers for their poor English; I criticise them (as I do EFLers) for sloppiness and laziness in reading and presenting posts. There are those ESLers like Marcel and our faux-Australian friend who obviously take some degree of care when posting, and they will confirm that I have never criticised them for their English, because they are able to express arguments sufficiently fluently that I can disagree with their opinions! There are also people like Benski, who obviously don't even care enough about the way their posts are perceived to spell-check them, but he seems to miss the fact that I criticise EFLers for the same ignorance. C'est la vie!

Pep (Would it be also relevant to mention that I had a French gf in SL for about a year?)

PS I am not in rl, nor have I ever been, an English teacher, other than in several SL rp schools where I claim an expertise in Oral Studies, with a particular specialism in Ambiguity, Innuendo and Double Entendres.

Secret ferret powers.

Good Luck in changing the World

In an ideal world, among other things, we would all be considerate of others and have respect for oneself (two traits I believe that influence effective communication skills).

This is not an ideal world. It never will be. Even if we careen towards utopia or Nirvana, that little law of physics called entropy will rear its head and upend the whole system.

Some people will put their best and most conscientious foot forward while others will not. And that's the way it is.

Now personally speaking, I think it's reasonably obvious which posts/comments/IMs etc. stem from someone who is ESL and someone who cannot be bothered or even someone who just never completed schooling (whether formal or informal) in regards to grammar. If you are the type of person who is put out by any of these things, it's YOUR responsibility to suss out what you are dealing with so that you can berate or help accordingly.

And for the record, I am ESL, reared in an environment of people from all over the world who spoke multiple languages with numerous colloquialisms. Once I learned English to the extent that I had, I sadly realized that I had zero affinity for learning additional languages. I do not need help learning better Japanese -- I know I have a limit in what I can communicate, and while in Tokyo I have gaijin written all over me. They know it, I know it. A combination of limited Japanese and hand signals can go a long way. They even culturally "forgive" me for my limitations because I am gaijin (although behind my back I know some of them deride me -- so what?).

What I am trying to say here is that sometimes people's "best" does not measure up to the exepctations of others. And they don't want help. They want acknowledgement perhaps that they are doing the best they can.

And thank god we are not all the same, for this would be a very tedious world if that were so.

I understand it now. You love to point to other people's shortcommings and fully ignore or hide your own. Telling me in the past that you suspect I am an ESLer while my location is clearly stated as 'Netherlands' can be considered just as sloppy. however you choose to not comment on that.

again: You are the only one that accused me of not caring enough about my posts and therefor my replies should be considered of no value. D*** it! I am only trying to help people here!

It is simple for me: The mayority of the people here already told me that I should continue in the way I have been posting here. if you want to continue to attack me and accuse me of not caring enough about my posts, by all means.

Put yourself in my position and you will agree with me that one person claiming that I don't care enough, against the vast amount that don't mind the way I post, makes me come to the conclusion that it is not worth it to change my ways. You simply cannot please them all.

my inbox is full of messages telling me to ignore you.

In the end, you just like to criticize. Everybody needs a hobby.

This paragraph exemplifies my point. The way you have put it, you *can* please everyone by taking more care. Either your argument is false or you are not expressing it the way you are thinking it.

Are you sure you have understood them accurately?

Pep (I am delighted that you have published your location in your forum profile, but it was not there until quite recently, so stop banging on about it.)

PS Still not using a spell checker though?

As discussed above, you have no way of knowing whether sloppiness and laziness contributed to the results.

Regarding the suggestion above that you become a teacher: that would not be a good idea.

As an example of the inaccuracy of your argument: use of a spellchecker would solve most of Benski's problems; that he does not do so makes it obvious he is either sloppy or lazy.

Did I miss something? I thought someone suggested that I *was* already a teacher, but of course I might have read a post incorrectly. Or perhaps you did?

Pep (I have actually been told by several people who might be thought to have known better, that I would make an excellent teacher because of my empathy - if used in the correct manner, of course - and my clarity of expression. )

I thought this topic started off rather innocently, but it's quite clear to me now that you *are* indeed picking on 'ESLers', Pep.

If your argument was about sloppiness, then you should be talking about people in general, not ESLers specifically. Some empathy, understanding and modesty on your part could go a long way. ESLers will make mistakes. If you don't like it, stop going online altogether. Sloppiness isn't unique to ESLers. And what the heck is wrong with Benski's English?

You say you know some French. Well, I double dare you to respond to this post in French as fluently as I just did in English.

No, you missed it:
- - -
I wasn't speaking of Benski.

Your assumptions about others show a great deal of sloppiness and laziness on your part.

Look at yourself you ugly throll, people were right when they said that you deny and try to change facts if you cannot win.
Those things make nothing obvious, it is at most an assumption that I 'might' be, but stating it as a fact is dead wrong. Besides, you don't call people publicly lazy or sloppy, it's called common curtosy, but yet you LOVE pointing to people and tell them they don't care.

I call that discriminating, arrogant and rightout WRONG!



There is the proof, it is an absolute lie, is has been there since day 1.
Congratulations: You lost the last little credibility you still had with me.





Plus another 20 different people telling me that in roughly the same words.
You tell me Pep, did I misunderstand them??



Spellchecker? On a phone with NL settings and operating system? Or want me to set it to english and use T5? We all know how accurate T5 is right? lmao

Some stats for you:

1 person complains about my spelling.
1 person claims that due to missing a point, or punctuation, he cannot understand my posts and therefor finds them useless.
1 person attacks me and calls me sloppy, and is hiding his own sloppyness by hiding or lying about FACTS.
1 person is on this forum is not even close to 0.01%

Shall I use a spellchecker for this 1 Person, who is, by most regulars here, considered a throll?

Answer: NO.

Get a life Pep and stop quoting me or namecalling me. And don't you even dare to accuse me of not caring enough.

As I see it, you are not one of those that give a lot to these forums, you are just 'tolerated' at the most.

*sigh*

This thread was always just sooooooo going to end in tears . . .

Can we ALL stop name-calling, please?

Ibtl

I completely agree with this

I am so done with ESLers should this and 'Benski don't care, is sloppy' etc. etc.
It should end right here and now.
Stop attacking my english, stop replying to me completely Pep, I am so done with your so called lessons.
This thread is, as far as I am conserned, way over the line.
It is discriminating against ESLers and it suggests that they are in deep need of your help.
But you know what? They don't. We as ESLers did fine before you, and will continue to do fine. We don't want and don't need your help.
We also do not need your attacks and insinuations, we don't need you to call us sloppy, or blame us for not caring enough.
We are done. I am done, done with you and your nitpicking remarks, your assumptions and your arrogant point of views.

I am done, truely done. You crossed the line, and you did that way way way too often.

Benski (Proud to be an ESLer)

Lazy research or sloppy reading on your behalf; Jig already thinks I am a teacher and was suggesting that I direct my expertise in a particular direction.
Sloppy argument or lazy presentation on your behalf; you did not indicate anybody in particular so I gave you a specific counter-argument which disproved your contention.
You have completely failed to demonstrate your argument . . .

Pep ( . . . and demonstrated yourself as being sloppy and lazy; go and stand in the dunce's corner immediately and reflect upon how you could improve your posts. )

There are *two* people in SL that misspell "troll" in exactly the same way?

Pep (It apparently isn't just because you don't care enough that your posts are incomprehensible; you are obviously over-emotional as well. )

See below.
See below.
I have empathy; you are expressing yourself badly; just because I have empathy does not mean that I have to express compassion; don't mix up the two concepts. Why should I stop going online, particularly in English language forums? Other language forums are available for lazy/sloppy ESLers.
If you read my posts here accurately you will see that I say that; but this thread is not about how lazy or sloppy EFLers could be helped.
I think that is obvious.
J'en ai marre avec toi.

Pep (Ca suffit?)

The quote in my previous proves my point. You continually point out others' errors, yet cannot admit your mistakes. I suspect you belong on the teen grid.

And yes, I omitted the word, "post," in the previous post. We all make mistakes. Most of us can admit them.