Blondin, you have some Esplanin to do.

It is indeed. I find your distinction between FL and SL, between "real" space and "head space" far too clear-cut (and, for what it is worth, I'm pretty sure Foucault, who as a good poststructuralist saw reality largely as a kind of linguistic construct, would agree).

Entertainment or not, to argue that what happens here doesn't impact on our physical lives is tantamount to denying the RL impact of books, images, advertisements, propaganda, and all other types of communication or experience that "exist" only insofar as they are assembled and given meaning in our "head space."

Possibly you, personally, ARE entirely unaffected in physical life by what happens to you in SL. If so, great! And you are entirely within your rights to continue to see SL as a form of entertainment, of course. Unfortunately, I don't think that the rest of SL, or RL for that matter, are going to cooperate.

hey there, you missed me out. You asked me to try and "talk it through" with you.. So I have... Here it is again. Really interested on if or not you'll change the groups policy and why you bring bdsm into a rape issue when you say you have educated yourself on it now. Plus the other questions on respecting a "no" from people

Thanks for the references, which I will check out and add to the bibliography. The last one is particularly interesting in the context of SL: Equality Now's campaign against Japanese computer games that feature rape play has not been an unmitigated success, but I think it has been more effective than many thought it would be.

For what it is worth, I actually share your frustration and confusion about how these issues apply to SL. Which is, again, why I think that simplistic responses like "bans" should be avoided.

I DO believe, quite strongly, and based upon logic, my own experiences within SL, and the preponderance of scholarly evidence, that what happens here in SL does impact upon RL. This isn't JUST a "game": the experiences here, emotional and intellectual, aren't wiped clean from our brains when we log off. And THAT means that things like rape play in SL DO have a bearing on RL attitudes.

How much? I will honestly admit that I don't know. And how to proceed, with these assumptions in mind . . . ? Well, I'd like to hear some ideas a bit more sophisticated than "leave me alone" or "ban them."

They have already been zoned out of open to the public space on 95% of the mainland. What more do you suggest is reasonable?

To continue to say further restrictions are necessary is not discussion or negotiation, it is pushing for banning. Calling it anything else does not alter that fact.

My god, Ian. Just looking at this post exhausts me.

I didn't respond before because I've answered much of this before. Indeed, my answers to some are actually still in the quotes from me that you cite. But here we go . . .



I sent the ARs out AFTER having the SL Blog prohibition against rape pointed out to me. And until LL tells me differently, I will continue to assume that those prohibitions apply.


It's NOT "my group." It is a group, comprised of an enormously diverse points of view, to which I belong and in which I am very active. We make decisions through consensus. Most often I am in agreement with what the group decides; sometimes I am in dissent.

Our "policy" at the moment concerns research and education around the issues of depictions of violence against women in SL. I see no reason to change that.


Please see my answer to Melodie, above.


Because "BDSM," as it is used in common parlance, refers to a very wide range of different sorts of simulations and behaviours, including, often, rape play. Some Dolcett players that I have spoken to, for instance, see Dolcett as a form of BDSM.

I have personal objections to most elements or varieties of BDSM, but my understanding of, and attitudes towards the more moderate varieties HAVE changed. I still don't like it, but I understand it better, and am much more willing than I once was to tolerate it, on a personal level.

If your objection is to me using "BDSM" as an umbrella term, then fair enough. I will be more exact in my language in the future.

No, I don't think that you are a rapist. And I'm far from sure that Lias thinks so either, but you'll have to ask her about that.



Honestly, I think that much of this was the result of a miscommunication. I read your remarks as suggesting that both I and these putative "vigilante squads" were working hand in hand in a sort of sinister way with LL. If that was NOT what you meant, then I do apologize.


Yes, I am sure you are offended by my views. I am greatly offended by some of yours. That's going to happen whenever we discuss controversial issues. The key is not to be guided by our emotional responses, but to try and work through them to something that at least approaches a mutual tolerance, if not acceptance. And yes, even if we can come to an understanding, we will probably STILL be offended by each other's views. A society where people aren't ever offended is a bland one incapable of generating new ideas.


Yep, maybe. That isn't going to stop me from trying to change things at a community level.


Censorship is kind of a loaded term, like calling someone who is pro-choice "anti-life." What I want to do is establish an understanding that we have to take responsibility for what we chose to do. And part of that responsibility is an acknowledgment that some of our choices may be hurtful or harmful to others. In a culture that believes in mutual respect, we avoid those behaviours, or modify them, as a means of SHOWING respect to others. One may have the "right" in some sense to hurl racial epithets around randomly in public, but one doesn't do so (I hope) because of our awareness of how hurtful and harmful that would be.


You still don't seem to be getting that I couldn't care less about pulling hair. I DO care about labeling an animation "forced sex" or "rape."


You live, in RL, under the prohibitions established by your own government. You play, in SL, under the rules established by the owner of the grid. It's never as simple as just being about "you."

QFT.
Any chance we can get back to the thread topic now?

The main problem with Zindra as it is currently constituted is that it lumps ALL forms of sexual expression together. Someone looking for "vanilla sex" (to use the rather insulting popular term) is still going to be exposed to depictions of sexual violence in Zindra. In fact, the likelihood of that happening is likely much higher now than it was in the old "Mature."

An option that I would like to explore would be to bring depictions of consensual sex back into mature, and reserve Zindra for things like rape play and other depictions of violent sexuality. As a solution it wouldn't leave me entirely happy by any means, but I could accept it.

As for whether this constitutes an attempt to "ban" content or behaviours:

If you acknowledge that some public behaviour on your part is hurtful or disturbing to me, and AGREE voluntarily not to do it around me as a result, have you been "banned"? I don't think so. You have merely shown respect for my sensibilities. I, in turn, will voluntarily not go LOOKING (camming behind walls and so forth) for the behaviours that upset me, nor will I complain or AR them if they are in private, even though I still think them highly objectionable or even harmful. And that concession on my part I make in respect for YOUR sensibilities.

I don't see that either of us has been "banned." We are merely showing respect for each other.

vanilla? well I loathe being lumped with the title pornographer. Living with inapprioriate terms is a fact of life. Definitions depend on the person making the statement. As an example, it's like defining extreme - for some that's leaving the light on.

In the end, all of the activities caught up in this are a part of human sexuality. Whether we think they are unhealthy, dangerous or silly.

and Scylla, LL is currently in the process of giving you what you wish for.

You want discretion from those who have content you don't want to see?

~Granted.~

Search has been cleaned up by moving those commercial businesses that have to advertise and have their land set as public access - so you can no longer just stumble across it in "normal" search or on the ground..

You want individuals to be discrete and to be behind closed walls?

~Granted~

All private citizens of this world now have to move all their outside sexual activities inside, despite the fact they own their plot and anyone looking in is effectively peeping over the fence.

Those private citizens will now have to move to Zindra if they wish to continue their outside activities on their own land - either that or box in their land to make that token effort of keeping cameras away.

So for you, and Meta's missing millions, your wish has been granted.

Public sexual expression is being shipped off to Zindra. I believe "vanilla sex" is still safe in private in Mature regions, and most of the content in Zindra goes somewhat past vanilla. Sexual activity in Zindra basically starts with sex clubs.

Respecting sensibilities... That's pretty much a done deal. In the past the extreme sexual content has almost entirely been limited to locations the owner has dedicated to it. Now it's limited to those locations in one small area of the mainland (leaving private islands out of the conversation).

Those who are potentially offended by the possibility of encountering objectionable sexual or violent content would do well to avoid teleporting to Zindra. While Zindra isn't exclusively pornoland, that's where such material will be. Anyone who goes there should be prepared for the possibility of encountering something they don't like, and deal with it.

Are you talking about just regular free sex clubs or places that host this kind of content??
The point that seperates mature and Adult is the fact it is advertised..
At some point i would think they found it in search or had gotten a land mark..
I don't think there will be a lot of cases of people walking down the street going from place to place..they are going to have to find the places..because it is not all sexual content on zindra and after the auction opens i think there will be a lot of different types of things on Zindra..right now it is just a high concentration of it because adult content is the only ones allowed to move there..

Mature is where things are going to be hidden and people may accidentally happen on something..i think zindra the way clubs try to get known they will be making it known what type of place they are..


there is going to be consensual sex in mature..there is going to be all kinds of sex in mature..
it will more than likely be consensual as most all of it is..
what you are asking for here is what is already happening or going to be happening..
you don't have to go to zindra for sex..you can do it in your own home in private in mature..

You asked to for talking... I can't stand the [] tags myself either. Maybe you could actually stop blocking the questions I ask with new excuses and just give me a few yes or no's. Also stop bringing me into these debates out of the blue...


Over all I guess I am asking, do you have any boundaries yourself, your hell bent on imposing an unwanted thing on people... LL have pretty much done it anyway and you still want more.. basically will you ever stop? or is it a thing in *you* that can't stop or ever be ok? do you know what I mean?

What more would freedoms you like us to loose to satisfy you? Is there an end to this?



So that's a NO to regret for a misplaced AR, a willingness to stop doing them, because you don't like what you have now read in the rules and want LL to come tell you themselves, Sorry that's weak as p%ss.

And another NO, Scylla, to say you don't have the power to try and change that banning policy is a lie. Also to not comprehend you could start a new group which doesn't have the banning policy is to dumb for you. So you need to stop saying your not trying to ban something when you actively are.




My objection is to you trying to forcibly intrude into peoples minds and accounts with your one sided and at times ill informed beliefs. What you don't get is that as much as you love playing with words, it doesn't mean that we all do. I find it an evasive tactic.




I'm glad you don't and I'm not worried about Lias, I was making a point about ignorance and extremism.


No problem, people have tried to talk to you, just because some others don't get into your fancy lingo or find you agenda offensive doesn't mean they misread you.

I do think it now too, by the way, as you won't try to change that groups policy or aren't willing to stop ARing.


I'm not offended by your views, I'm offended that you want to impose them on unwilling people.
Maybe if we were talking about how to pay a bill off we'd not be emotional, but your talking about very personal things as in what people do sexually... it's bloody intrusive.
Do you think most people are idiots who can't decipher what's right and wrong for themselves?

If this were r/l and you were somehow involved in a community, and you thought someone was abusive, by your terms, in some form, within a relationship even if it was consensual, I'm assuming you'd try and charge them or intrude into their world, even if they asked you to leave?

Why force yourself where your not wanted, like seriously it's really bad boundary problems... don't you stand for no means no? Why can't you just censor your self and others who consent to it? Your not offering conversation, your offering your way and your way only. You're happy to do that by force, even by knowingly breaking the rules.



Sorry it is censorship... no matter what flowery words you wrap it in. Show some respect yourself... like really, leave people alone, this string and most others here on the forum is a huge majority asking you to not impose.... no means no etc... like no thanks, go away now... can you hear that from the majority here? If you can why don't you respect it?



I don't care why you do it, that you are going to keep doing it even though it isn't an offense is what shits me off, it's bloody hostile and irresponsible.


I do and I do on my paid for parcel too... Like I said you guys need to buy a sim or even your own servers.

Wowzers that wall of text was a tough read.

To what possible scenario does this refer? There's been nothing voluntary about either the policy nor the intent to AR violators of this or some possible future policy.

Moreover, there is no consensus about what constitutes valid "sensibilities" to be offended. There is just a policy.

It's all very nice for you to be offended by consensual depictions of non-consensual sex; some others object to depictions of sex between cartoon representations of animals; others are offended by gay or lesbian sex, or indeed any sexual relationship between unmarried partners.

There are whole cultures whose sensibilities are offended by any display of bare skin by females.

Are we to "respect" those various "sensibilities" too?

So, no, it's not enough, not nearly enough, that you agree not to cam into parcels in search of that which you find offensive. Just such a distinction between public and private is what gets gays bashed for walking hand-in-hand and women stoned to death for not wearing a veil.

There is no moral high ground here, and no cause for delusion about that. There is just an expedient policy, and expedient politics.

Scylla, no one would blame you if you stopped re-iterating everything for this person. It will be a circular argument and exhausting to you to continue to try to help him 'keep up' with and comprehend what you have already written. You have made a Herculean effort here.

If you are serious about having a discussion about this, then why are you hijacking this thread rather than starting one presenting your "evidence"? Without that, it leaves me to assume that you are merely riding the efforts of others while attempting to lob stones whenever possible.

As was covered in the 80+ pages of the one thread you did start, unless something is on Linden protected land, it is NOT in the public.

Melodie meaning public server that anyone with enough bandwidth and identification can access. She is not talking about ban lines. Just because you have to fill out a form and call yourself Micky Mouse born in June 3rd, 1922 - does not mean it is a private server. Any American can go on the net, order a debit card in nay name they want and add it to their account to get into any adult verification area.

It is still a server which people choose to access. Unless you and Scylla are advocating everyone use security orbs and banlines out of fear of the vigilante thought police AR squads.

We all have the search button so we know where we are going, and the little menu with the TP home if we don't like where we are.

These goddamned forums need to be updated. I want agree/disagree/yay/etc buttons.

Regarding LL's asinine management of everything Second Life-related... I've seen enough over the last 3 years. I'm closing up my shop, selling my land, or if necessary, abandoning it. Linden Lab isn't going to get another dime from me, even if I don't sell "adult content."

Okay Started a thread for the discussions of Virtual Violence against Electronic Depictions of Women who may or may not be controlled by actual women, actual humans, or actual computer programs...


/327/3a/331295/1.html

I think they would rather hang out at the infohub.

Just sayin

I started a thread that was designed to be hijacked instead.

Thus saving her the trouble of continuing to fly this one to Cuba.

How many categories of Adult land would you like to see?

You use "WE" yet you still refuse to recognize that you are an organized AR squad.

Wow .. you really do not see, do you?

You have an activist, organized Agenda with the aim to ban or filter some activity, with other members assisting in the organizing and effort ... AND you mention some activity you see as AR worthy ....


Yet you don't see this as an example of an organized AR squad.

The mind boggles.

Gosh Colette . . . should I answer on THIS thread, or on the one you very kindly set up for me?

'Cause, you know, it seems to be ok when you or Ian or Melodie or whoever has something to say on this subject here, but it becomes a case of "hijacking" the thread when I respond . . .

Now, why would that be?