Are some people really so stupid as to expect privacy in SL?

nor Privateer Space...

It is no more stupid to desire privacy in SL than in one's RL. Realizing there is no "true privacy" in SL due to the ability to remove camera constraints and see into others' homes for quite a distance, it is still able to keep unwanted visitors from literally "dropping in."

I agree with RockandRoll's post, EXCEPT, I personally think ban lines are a scourge on the landscape of SL and much prefer security orbs. They do not mar the visual view and give a warning with some time to move out of the area, before removing the person to another place on the sim.

This is one of those personal preference things so good people can agree to disagree on this, but I prefer my privacy when desired in SL.

I've always lived in the sky so one would think that would cut down on unwanted visitors but I have a lot of "anecdotes" of some apparent high-flyers. The one that had an "ick factor" for me was one who kept banging herself against our windows, akin to a bird who doesn't realize there is glass in its way, until our orb escorted her away. I always quickly do a profile check when anyone comes within our orb range. This person had about 5 or 6 different "Peeping Tom" groups in her profile. Who knew?

Now that I live alone and am not in the house as much due to working in my shop, I have not installed any security. I will use the good ole, freeze, eject, ban built into land owner tools.

Those guard bees do look like fun though......

Gods forfend we should have a definition of any particular word.

Please, continue to define any word as you please, not as any of the rest of us might do so.

Except when ones such as the OP make a point of camming in and Imming you to rub that fact in your face.



Except when ones utilizing the orbs think that the lowest setting (3 secs? 5?) are sufficient.



But there is no privacy, nor are you entitled to any, nor are you entitled to the respect that any sentient being should show another.



There are more things in heaven and earth, Czari, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.




They *are* fun, I have a set of those

Yes, if are already flying then you can continue flying. If you land on the parcel that is set to no-fly, all you have to do is enable view admin options to get the ability to fly back.

An awful lot of them don't seem to give any time at all.

I used to fly over SL a lot more than I have lately--possibly, cumulatively, I'd average a couple of hours each week. (I was more heavily into the land buying/selling business then than I am currently.)

Anyway, I can't even count the number I times I was flying and the INSTANT the blue window appeared, I'd be uncermoniously TPed away. We are talking less than 1 second, here.

Sometimes I'd go back to get the name of the landowner, contemplating ARing them. Can't recall if I actually did file any abuse reports.

But these are incredibly rude people.

You can turn banlines off with the latest viewer and avoid the scourge on the landscape.

Until you run into them.

Although I guess the difference is minimal. If you're moving, running into them is usually the first clue to their presence.

Sure, the same with security orbs, there's no warning you'll hit a security orb. Personally I'd rather bounce off a parcel than have 15 seconds to find my way out or be TP'd home, but that's my view.

I think ban lines are a bummer and I'd go so far as to say they are almost a brand of noobity. We've all faffed with parcel permissions at some point but it very quickly becomes apparent that they are just so much of a nuisance. These days, I think it very odd to find a longstanding resident using ban lines at all but isn't that the kind of syndrome we reserve the term 'noob' as opposed to 'newbie' for?

I don't go with the reproval heaped on the OP for attempting to demonstrate that the bantard (thanks to VonGlukstein for another addition to the lexicon) was achieving very little with her pointless measures. He wasn't or rather *isn't* a stalker. The reality of stalking cannot exist in SL and I personally don't appreciate the use of the construct in a virtual environment outside of an RP scenario. 'Griefer' is a perfectly adequate and undramatic term for a virtual pain-in-the-ass.

It's just pixels for heaven's sake and and there are procedures for dealing with griefing quickly and efficiently even without recourse to an AR. Attempting to replicate the potential of very real trauma in a virtual environment with terms like 'stalker' is plain irresponsible. There's a real difference between roleplaying a murder in SL, for instance, and behaving as if your life and sanity are genuinely in danger, which is wrong. If anything, SL should be a liberating experience for someone dealing with problems like this in their RL, which is not to say they should have other residents dancing a polka round their issues.

An SL griefer, however clever, is just not in the same class as an RL stalker. The bantard could quite easily turn the whole matter around by banning the OP for his infraction on her whiteboard or even putting an AR on his ass but the idea of her being genuinely and detrimentally affected by his actions is quite simply ludicrous. She might even take a spark of confidence back into her RL if she dealt with the situation creatively.

As it is described, I think the OP was just dealing with a newbie who remains stubbornly blasé about the pointless obstruction she has created without any real thought for her neighbours. A sour look from her postman could just as easily be the closest she has ever come to a stalker in RL. If she were a serious minimalist for that matter, she could go get an island where she might indulge her preference for pixellated simplicity. I believe cheap enough deals are available for digital sensualists all over the gaff.

At the end of the day, I think it is important to consider your neighbours and take their complaints into account. As a newbie, it is doubly important to listen to reasonable complaints, act on them and thereby learn what it takes to get by in SL. Otherwise she will remain a noob and possibly become a juicy target for some real griefing when she gets around to pissing off the wrong individual through her negligence.

Disagree with that, at least as I would define "reality of stalking." Define mental terrorism?*

Also some people HAVE taken SL stalking into real life. But that is a whole other topic.

*hope no one misreads that as 'the person thinking stalking is mostly mental must be a quivering mess.'

Yet you put forth that a single entry in a dictionary is the only possible way to view/understand that particular word, even when presented with other information that tends to show the word can and does mean so much more.

I'm not adjusting it based on that.

Sounds to me like you're saying that the next time I have a one-on-one opportunity to share a perception with someone....I should respect their mindset of taking the victim's role, rather than stressing my mindset that you don't have to do that....and of all places, you don't have to do that HERE, and I can just leave them to wander about SL being taken advantage of and getting hurt over and over again.

And I'm not talking about anyone in this thread. I'm talking about the people who come to me privately, with their latest hurt.

Nope. No way. I'll stick with sharing my perception.

I already stated that ban lines vs security orbs is an area where people can agree to disagree. The thing with security orbs is they have to be set up correctly. It sounds like you encountered many *not* set up correctly. Our's was something like 30 seconds. I fly as well and I can generally make it out of orb territory in that amount of time.

I'm really thrilled to hear that!! Finally those awful red lines can be turned off.

Unfortunately I will not be able to take advantage of it because I have to use an old viewer due to having an older computer and, no, I can't afford to upgrade. (Just in case someone had that on the tip of their tongue.)

As someone who never used ban lines, I want to see if I have this right:

Ban lines are seen by everyone if the owner lists people in the access list on the land tab, meaning that only the people on the access list *don't see the ban lines.

However, if a land owner doesn't use the access list but instead puts people *not* desired on property on the ban list, then only the banned people see the lines?

Well I would define mental terrorism as 'mental abuse' for a start.

As for "the reality of stalking", I think I was fairly clear in my post. I meant the heavy business that goes down in RL, which is out of the victim's control and usually has serious consequences to their life. This does not happen in SL or perhaps I'm being a little too categorical and I should say it might happen only on the very rarest occasions. I certainly don't think it happens with anything near the frequency that incidence of the word itself suggests.

Mind you, I am sorry I raised the point because I won't debate stalking in SL unless of course there are verifiable accounts of incidents that were brought to court in RL. I don't see what there would be to discuss otherwise.

correct. and the ban lines go much, much, MUCH farther than standard banlines. (though without going inworld and getting myself banned, i can't say exactly how high, or if there's no ceiling to them whatsoever...)

Thanks 23rd...that's what I thought. And now that I think of it, I recall one time I was banned by a neighbor (it was basically an error and she quickly unbanned me) but we lived in the sky and I saw the ban lines at about 600m up then. The regular ones I can fly over and then trampoline up and down on them.

(Not that I've ever done that, of course.)

No, not at all! Sharing your perception is the best way for someone to see that perhaps their perception needs adjusting. I am in no way saying that we need to keep our perceptions to ourselves. Personally, I feel the best way to grow is to try and see how others see the world, and share their perceptions with one's own.

This is all pretty dismissive of a phenomenon that certainly DOES exist in SL; I have very direct first-hand knowledge of two cases (in neither of which, happily, was I the victim) of very real and, for the victims, very upsetting stalking in SL, and I know second-hand of quite a few others. The notion that something doesn't "exist" or isn't worthy of discussion until it makes it to court seems rather self-fulfilling: how are these things ever to make it to court in the first place unless they are first acknowledged, discussed and explored?

Online harassment, bullying, and stalking are all very well-documented phenomenon; all HAVE appeared in courts. SL is part of that world, albeit a part with its own peculiarities; what is it about SL that exempts IT from being abused in this way?

I have some sympathy with the point that "the heavy business" goes down in RL, and that comparison of THAT with what happens in SL is a falsifying distortion. The same argument is often used for other forms of emotional trauma in SL, such as, for example, virtual assault. It goes without saying that the (relative) anonymity of SL means that stalking here is usually less "heavy" than in RL, but this is not to say that it does not cause emotional effects. Too often the "there is no comparison with the RL trauma" argument is really a ploy used to simply dismiss the virtual version of RL trauma out of hand, a tactic that is simplistic and reductive. Everything that happens in SL is, in a sense, a shadow of its RL counterpart, but that makes the affect no less real, even if the potential for physical danger is less. It is entirely possible to be emotionally traumatized by stalking in SL, I assure you.

Added to which there is the point that Clarissa makes: SL stalking can, and sometimes does, shade over into RL. In both of the cases in which I was directly involved, RL phone calls were made to the victim by the stalker, and there WAS some concern (although fortunately unrealized) that the cases might become ones of RL stalking.

The actual mechanics of stalking in SL (and just to clarify, I don't think the OP was guilty of this) often make nonsense of the notion that the problem can be ended by simply logging out. Stalking in SL consists of appearing constantly and consistently in places that the victim is known to frequent, sending unwanted IMs and notecards, harassing the victim's friends, using alts to get around bans and "mutes" or to spy on the victim, planting chat spy scripts to "listen in" on conversations, and camming into the victim's SL residence from either just within, or just beyond, radar range. The SL stalker can be as tenacious and clever as the RL one; I know of two separate women who were eventually driven to deleting their avatars entirely to throw off their tormentors and associated alts; this was, in the end, their only real recourse.

I don't know when an SL case of stalking will make it to court, thus becoming "a reality" worthy of your notice. An SL case of virtual rape has: would you prefer to discuss this? But the fact that stalking in SL has not yet (at least to my knowledge) been noticed by the legal system does not make it any less real to those who have been victimized by it.

Ok my take.....

We have part of our property as park like that is fine. We have the other part as our home normally that is fine.

Now on our land we have had problems with people walking in and well just making it their own. Yes have posted signs yes did all that.

One night enough was enough! They were very rude and not new ones entered and proceeded to make it their own. Up went the ban lines! Till we found a security orb. Yes I dont like ban lines but we got tired of it!

Signs, asking politely, nothing works.

Now we have the orb and hey I dont have to worry about coming back from putting a load of clothes in the dryer and I am on the chaise in our bedroom in SL and see a a couple downstairs ask them to leave and they threaten ME with an AR! (yes that did happen) No these were not new ones. Now the orb takes care of it. And mind you it is either the security orb or ban lines all around the property and we want people to enjoy the park area that is no problem.

It was suggested a while back (not this thread) that we just use a skybox. Why? We bought and did the land to our liking we are proud of this land even if it is virtual. Why do WE the owners have to move upstairs so to speak?

Do we have anything to hide heck no! But it is our place and that is how it is!

Is it a respect thing dont know, so many definitions are being thrown around but in the end....

I respect you and your stuff as I would hope that you would respect mine.

With all due respect, Scylla, this is more or less why I would be interested to see a case that was prosecuted: it would be documented and there would be evidence that might be discussed reasonably. I'm not even suggesting that the findings of the court would be a vindication of anyone's point of view either way.

As it stands, all I ever hear is anecdotal evidence, which is virtually impossible to substantiate, and this makes me extremely skeptical, even at the risk of seeming cold and dismissive of other residents' experiences. On the other hand, I have more than enough personal experience of situations being blown way out of proportion by residents who can't seem to function without a daily side-order of drama.

A serious SL stalking, if there is such a thing, would merit serious RL action beginning with an intervention by Linden Labs and getting the police involved if necessary. Otherwise, I insist we're talking about 'griefing' plain and simple. And most of the time folk really do just like to talk.


Yes, I would. I'd be interested to see how far they got with that. It sounds to me like a griefing constructed on the model of a very serious RL crime and my opinion wouldn't be much different to the issue of 'stalking' until it's shown how a virtual rape was treated intelligently as a real crime.

Link please.

/me wonders whose 'Lazarus' alt Yssario is, and what is their mother tongue . . .

Pep ( . . . because English sure as Hell isn't. )

PS Perhaps you and Mickey should have your own private discussion so that your mutual misapprehensions cancel out.

SO, everyone who's interested in actually getting privacy in SL has voted for http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/svc-205