Are some people really so stupid as to expect privacy in SL?

still not the point...

we're talking about whether or not someone's land, above a certain height, becomes public.

I, personally, don't think it does.

I believe we're talking across purposes. I do not believe it becomes public, but one does not have the right to present hazards to navigation above a certain height.

To be blunt, one does not have rights to anything in SL.

Really?

So an invisible skyscraper is illegal? Or should be?
A security system above a certain height isn't allowed?

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Dekka,

As long as I pay my rent, I have the right to do anything that LL allows me to do on my own property.
I have the right to eject, ban or deny access to anyone I don't want on the property.
No one else does, on my property, just me.

I must say I enjoy ejecting my partner when he least expects it. Otherwise I dont do any banning.

I stated before, prims do not present the same hazard as banlines. Although I'm not sure what the purpose of an invisible skyscraper would be other than to grief pilots.

Security systems also generally give enough warning for one to leave the area they protect. Again, not the same hazard as banlines, unless the owner is a complete asshole and sets an unreasonably short delay. It also seems reasonable that security orbs would be protecting something a pilot would probably wish to avoid in the first place. I know I try not to fly into skyboxes.

First off, how is it griefing? The pilots aren't supposed to be there.
It's not up to you what happens on the land, nor are the motivations behind it any of your business.

"I know I try not to fly into skyboxes."
How 'bout trying not to fly into banlines?
If you can't, get better at piloting.

You said: "I do not believe it becomes public, but one does not have the right to present hazards to navigation above a certain height." I provided an example of a hazard to navigation.

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Jig, I don't either, unless they try to harm my company or abuse my hospitality by disturbing my guests and customers. Even then, I'm loathe to do it. Sometimes, I gotta, though.

That's not the point. I was speaking to Dekka's point that no-one has rights in SL.

You might be talking about that, I'm not. I'm not talking about absolutes, about black and white, about whether the land is public or private, I'm saying that property rights in SL, as in the real world, are limited. Yes, you can build a three kilometer skyscraper, but you can't automatically get one for free by clicking a button on the access control tab, because if everyone who wanted to did that it would interfere with flight in a way that an occasional skyscraper or orbital skyhook won't.

This is true in SL for the same reason as in RL. I'm not much of a word weaver or lawgiver, so I'll just let someone who WAS finish.

In 1945, Justice Douglas of the US Supreme Court ruled against the traditional doctrine that common law ownership of land extended to all the airspace above that land, so those flying airplanes could not be sued for trespassing. "Common sense revolts at the idea," wrote Douglas.

Banlines are not visible more than 8 meters away. They are practically impossible to avoid.


And I have answered that twice. Since you are clearly not reading what I have written, I'm done with you.

Such things exist but they don't work very well. When you're flying more than a few meters per second the object updates from objects coming into draw distance compete with the object updates from the HUD and they simply don't refresh fast enough. They also only work for the current sim, and the biggest problem for vehicles are ban lines on sim crossings.

Concentrating on flying isn't useful. There have been dozens of situations described in these forums where the overuse of ban lines causes problems, some involving vehicles, some not. There are benefits to the things, but they are limited, and the problems and the limitations on the benefits seem to be completely unknown to most of the people who put them up.

Again, in one sim I have land in, out of half a dozen banlined parcels, only two of them actually have the ban lines around an actual building, and one has banlines at ground level and nothing protecting the skybox above them. Where I HAVE been able to contact the people who have them up for no good reason, simply explaining how they work and the effects they have has in all but one case been enough to convince them to take them down, and I think in that one case language was a bigger barrier than ban lines.

Despite not being considered trespassers, RL aircraft are required to file flight plans and are not normally allowed to fly just anywhere (especially after (911)). And they are a standard form of transportation. If we could teleport at will in RL at no cost, aircraft would almost certainly be a lot more restricted.

If someone is flying high enough that they cannot really see ground detail, then why do they need to fly, given that they could port instead? If low enough that they can, isn't there a valid privacy issue?

RL planes are required to file flight plans for safety reasons... if they fall down people want to find out what happened. RL planes are not required to follow flight plans. They're restricted from specific areas, but those kinds of areas in SL are in private islands you can't fly to anyway.

If no person or property could be hurt by a falling plane, they might not be restricted at all.

There's far less of a privacy issue from planes flying at low altitude than from individual avatars walking around the edge of your parcel. At normal flying speeds, it's likely that avatars would still be ghosts and most smaller prims would never even rez by the time the plane had passed.

Banlines do deter the average newbie and they are option for those of us who own and buy land on mainland just because your annoyed with them doesn't diddly squat. Second Life's mainland is paid for by individuals who have right to have banlines and its one small way to say hey Ms. and Mr. Noobie this isn't one of those games you can just go anywhere you want and intrude in others space. Not everyone in Second Life wants to socialize with you. Its not about privacy its I don't want to be bothered but I am not wealthy enough to own a island. I am not going to pay what I can for island I just go offline viewer build alone but there are certain features I can't make work their like scripts, animations.

Cool.

I guess the conversation's over.

You're in the "What I want supercedes what you've paid for" camp.

I'm not. I don't presume to tell anyone what they can do with their stuff and expect the same in return.

That's your subjective opinion. Many, if not most people who buy security orbs want to repel anyone that is not on an access list. Security orb default settings, like any other default settings on an SL product for sale, should be tailored for the anticipated desires of the consumer (not the rest of the SL public that might wander upon the land). Settings can be easily be customized by a security orb user to use a ban list rather than an access list and I think most people who buy security orbs understand that it is going to be defaulted to an access list, and if they want to have it be less heavy handed they are going to customize the settings accordingly.

Well after numerous years in SL truthfully I think the land situation in SL sucks, what sucks more is bozo with no pants who think when I am in middle of something and I am not interested in talking with anyone or being distracted doing prim art project show up with no pants being a moron.

Truthfully there is too many morons wandering around Second Life who think everything is about their sex organs and adventures, everyone they run into are just are virtual toys.

Truthfully I am burned out that others believe they should have complete freedom to intrude whatever creative environment I am preoccupied with and demand I stop and pay attention to them.

Truthfully I am so fed up I am not going to continue dealing with premium or even developing content any more in world unless I am hanging out doing creative projects with friends because it annoys me that much.

You paid for and got your private island, and I wouldn't dream of suggesting you would even be rude in setting up whatever access controls you want on it.

But on the mainland, Linden Lab has declined to grant us all the rights you get on your private island. I don't get to completely block everyone from my land. I don't get unlimited terraforming. I don't get privacy. I'm not paying for it. But I get what I pay for. And I accept the limits on what I pay for.

Most people who buy security orbs have been brainwashed into an absurd level of paranoia, and years of blatantly hostile default settings of security orbs have contributed to that paranoia. And why not? It certainly benefits arms dealers for everyone to think they really, really need a Big Gun.

wow, just wow.
went from having a pretty "civil" discussion to veiled and outright insults. very mature.

some of you need reminders that not everyone can afford 300usd per month on a private island. things like rent, bills, and food are more important. and just because one buys a private island, it does not guarantee total privacy. like is has been posted several times why some of us use the orbs and in some case banlines, it helps get things done without being bothered for the time it takes to finish whatever project needs to be done.

sidenote to Del: the reason you are getting so much flak is because of what you did to your neighbor. if you had done that to your RL neighbor, you'd be in jail. so why do it at all? yes she probably could have found another way to make her parcel private, but you also could have just sent an im telling her how her use of them makes it difficult to get to your home point.

It is true that there is a safety aspect to flight plans, however in RL pilots do have to explain if they are not following the plans. It is also true that if noone would be affected by a crash (or by the noise) then there are fewer restrictions.

RL aircraft (other than helecopters) do have stall speeds though, so there isn't normally a significant privacy aspect.

As for avatars around the edge of a property, should one potential breech of privacy excuse another?

Are you a pilot?
A real breach of privacy makes an imaginary one seem pretty bloody stupid. Peole flying planes aren't using them to perve on you. It's SO much easier to do that from the next sim over with draw distance set to 512 or more.

I am not a pilot, but regs are usually pretty easy things to look up... http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part99-27-FAR.shtml

As for real vs imaginary breaches of privacy, most people do not close their window shades because they know someone is watching them, but so that they can have a stronger belief that noone is. In reality, most breaches of privacy do not affect the victim in and of themselves. It is learning that they are being watched and knowing that they are that is disturbing. Most people use drapes or window shades in RL without waiting for there to be someone looking in through their windows. Same principle... (and yes, drapes are also sometimes used to keep light out, but usually for privacy/modesty).

Have the SL pilots asked for areas of Linden Airspace like there are bits of Linden Ocean around for the sailors? Or having some sims where say, 2000 to 3000 feet up was saved as clear air, no ban lines or sky boxes... That way people could buy or not buy there etc.

I usually use the mini map to see what is going on but no matter how much I try to make sure that my skybox doesn't cross onto someone elses parcel it sometimes does or looks like it does... Seems like the air is a bit harder to read.

That only applies under air traffic control (near an airport), or when you're operating under instrument flight rules (and so you're following a flight path that's super likely to have other craft in it), or when you filed a flight plan that included travel over things like defense reservations or national borders (so they want to know you're not spying or smuggling). Normal VFR (visual flight rules) plans (the usual case) don't require notification.

It's one thing to look things up in Google, it's another to understand what you're looking at.

Someone sitting in the next sim might be watching you. Someone flying an aircraft overhead isn't. This isn't about whether it's theoretically possible, it's about aircraft being a really clumsy and obtrusive platform for surreptitious surveillance in SL.

Flight at those altitudes isn't that much of a problem, since banlines don't extend near that high. It's lower altitudes where you want to look at the landscape as you fly that they start to be a pain.

It's not just flight, driving and sailing can be a problem when banlines extend into the road or river.

The minimap is useless for judging prim overhang.