Are some people really so stupid as to expect privacy in SL?

I use griefing in the broad sense that most use it here....OMG I'm being griefed...when it is actually a case of someone being a rude faceache...as opposed to the organized griefing..that's a different story.

I don't see any distinction except scale between a single prank and an organized group of pranksters. The behavior is the same. Someone who deliberately chooses to act like an asshole is not going to be dissuaded by asking them to "stop a moment and think". Nobody who is capable of that kind of behavior... RL or in SL... is going to care about decency.

There is a another class some call griefers. The accidental tourists as I call them. These are the folks who pop around exploring and really dont get that its impolite to just walk into anything they see. MOST of these if asked to leave do. There are some however who will argue the point that if you dont have an orb or bars its perfectly ok for them to do what they do even if its using your poseballs.

And there's creepy people who hover outside your skybox for half an hour until you message them and they flit away. No, they're not bots, not at a thousand meters.

Scylla, I'm glad you appreciated my response but in any case you still have my apologies for the length of it. As I said at the outset, it was a very slack day. it can be a bit of an imposition to come back at a respondent with what amounts to a Sunday sermon. Nevertheless, you were good enough to supply the links and I found I had a good deal to say about their content as well as the leisure time to do so.

Despite the care I took, it seems I was still a bit harsh on residents of a less resilient disposition. Of course you're right that we can log off feeling just as rattled as we can be all warm and fuzzy deep down. My assertion that it's only just pixels is a bit too glib in that sense but I was unconsciously focused on the heavier, RP type of online situations in SL's more violent 'Adult' oriented sims, other well-known MMPORGs and even older formats such as LambdaMOO insofar as I understood Dibbell's description of it. These environments thrive on a sense of danger and if you remove the risk of being psychologically buzzed or even completely pole-axed, there will be very little left to engage players. I believe regular players in hardcore RP sims understand this as a matter of course.

On the other hand, there is absolutely no question in my mind that a resident from, say, the PG end of the scale would want to even hear issues of violence, stalking and rape discussed and I would be the last person to bug them about it or think any the less of them for wanting a quietly pleasant and uncontroversial in-world break from the stresses of RL. I was thinking more of residents who try the dangerous RP venues without any regard for the potentially disturbing effects such environments will have on them. This happens often enough and it is quite a strain on other players to have to negotiate the barriers that pop up left, right and centre as a result. In that case, I would insist that if someone is at all squeamish or even slightly dubious about the potential effect of the other players' actions, he or she really ought to try and take things less personally or else forget about getting involved in that stuff altogether.


The notion of 'crime' is all very well as a backstory in RP situations but I personally think it is an imposition to attempt to label any kind of virtual event as a crime in the RL context. I still think there is no place for terms like stalker or rapist in online environments or even the term crime. Where some, including yourself, would insist that violent behaviour in the media dangerously influences real life behaviour, I would insist, conversely, that use of these very heavy terms in-world is not only inappropriate but that it is dangerously close to devaluing their weight in reality and that is where the real damage is done.

Now we're back to square one on the argument I made earlier about stalking, harassment and all other forms of anti-social behaviour in virtual worlds, which is to say that in my opinion it amounts to nothing more than griefing and it should be dealt with as such. There are mechanisms to handle griefing and I think it is quite enough to ban offenders or even delete the account if their behaviour has been severely out of order, which is what the residents of LambdaMOO did with Mr Bungle and his alter ego Dr Jest.

And for the record, simulated and seriously violent male rape is commonplace and very popular in SL's gay sims and often with a side order of any form of abuse or humiliation you care to think of. I have yet to hear anyone complain about it or even question it - unless they are not getting enough of it, that is. The general consensus is that we're just a bunch of dirty bastards having a laugh. And it is hilarious. But I guess you have to be there. Or perhaps you're thankful you're not.

I think this makes a useful comparison to the issue of male-female rape in SL quite simply because gender politics do not enter the equation. Nevertheless, rape in RL is every bit as serious and personal an issue for men as it is for women. What do you suppose is going on there?

I do expect a modicum of privacy.

We live in a Manor type castle atop a mountain in a no fly zone. But yet, people will trek up there and barge in on me while i'm modding my hair or decorating and they just stand there and expect me to talk to them and when i go silent they don't go away - or worse, they go AFK and slump over (Away) - at which point i teleport them home.

A lot people just do not understood that not every person you run into wants to stand there and chat with you - especially when you are in their home uninvited.

Use some common courtesy and common sense.

Thanks for the response, Ephraim. No apologies are in order; I (self-evidently, perhaps ) enjoy discussing these issues, and think they are important enough to take some time over.


This is a good point, but I guess I would respond with a question: are there, for all such sims, well-labelled signposts as to the sorts of RP that can be expected? In other words, can a player (male or female) be sure, walking into the sim, that she or he knows the ground rules thoroughly, and the limits to which he or she will be exposed?

If there IS an expectation within a given sim that RP can progress thus far, and no farther, then I would agree with you about those who voluntarily undertake it, so long as, in fact, the RP does NOT progress beyond the clearly stated limits. Where it does exceed those limits, then I would argue that we have an instance of abuse, griefing, or whatever you want to call it.

But I have a sense that part of the appeal of some of these sims is precisely the unpredictability of the experience? And the possibility that the RP COULD, at any time, exceed what might "normally" be expected? If that is so, then I would also agree with you that anyone who enters into such a sim KNOWINGLY is foolish unless they are sure they can handle what might come at them.

The key here, of course, is "knowingly." In order to ensure that people are not being caught off guard, there has to be an element of LL's much-beloved "predictability" (ugh!), even if what is "predictable" is, in fact, the unpredictable.


Well, I don't entirely disagree, although I think there is more analogy between cyberstalking and RL stalking than there is between "virtual rape" and RL rape. As I've said, I am not equating the two: they are very different phenomenon. I do think that "virtual rape" in SL (I am speaking, of course, about the nonconsensual variety, rather than rape RP and animations) represents a specialized form of griefing.

That said, I think it IS a specialized form. Tossing a box of self-replicating "LOL"s, or even a cloud of flying penises into a room really is rather different than simulating a sexual assault upon a (REALLY) unwilling victim. Sex is so visceral, and ownership of our bodies so fundamental to our sense of self-identity, that the effects of even a simulated assault are, or at least can be, a more intense kind of violation than merely getting orbitted or what-have-you.

So while I would have no objection to renaming "virtual rape" something else, I would want it to be differentiated from other forms of griefing. The same would go, for similar reasons, for online stalking and harassment.


As per my comments immediately above, I would largely agree with this, with the exception perhaps of the phrase "nothing more than," because I do think, certainly on the evidence of those I know who have been victimized in this way, that griefing with a more pronounced sexual component to it IS a separate subcategory of griefing.


This interests me a great deal. We think we know, based on statistics, that male/male rape is much less common in RL than male/female rape, but I suspect that those statistics are skewed because, I have a feeling, men may be less likely to report rape. (Women are none to happy about doing so either, of course, but I suspect that there is a different "macho" stigma at work with men?) In any case, male/male rape is prevalent enough to constitute a serious social problem, and one that certainly doesn't get the sort of media exposure that it deserves.

My own assumption is that one focusses, in one's activism, on a particular problem because it is more efficient to do so, in much the way that a doctor might specialize in a particular variety of cancer. But it is also my assumption that, in working to end violence against women and to change attitudes towards sexual assault in general, we are by implication and in practice fighting against male-on-male sexual assault. After all, despite the absence of the gender issue, the mechanics of the male/male rape are similar: consent still lies at the heart of the question.

I wish I knew more about this subject in SL. (Incidentally, I also wish I knew more about sexual behaviour and abuse in the lesbian community). But it is impossible for me to comment much more fully because it is just so far out of my experience. It's just speculation, but is it possible that the very fact that gender difference is not at play that makes this kind of environment less threatening and potentially abusive? In other words, that the homosocial element, the shared experiences and perspectives that come from all being men, is what produces the atmosphere that you describe?

After all, it's pretty clear that what often motivates violence against women is the sense that these men have that women are "other," and somehow unknowable and alien. The recent gym killings in the US are a case in point.

Mickey I never tried to label anyone who expects others to welcome all visitors with open arms, as mentally or emotionally ill.

Can you say the reverse?

Also as long as I am replying to you already:



Pretty much speaks for itself.

---

I like what this says better, however.

If Mickey were the only person who existed in SL, considering her condescending attitude I'd make sure I lived in a fortress.

Go pick some more zinnia's, Mickey.

Clarissa - I never said anyone was "mentally or emotionally ill!"

That is not fair!

I am courteous when I ride my horse. I have NO WAY of knowing whether a person will be offended if I ride across their beach to get to the next property, until the orb goes off. I generally ride the horse near the water's edge....not through their front porch. I do not click on pose balls.

You are blowing this a tad out of proportion. I offered some views on how some people explore SL....as did others. I don't expect everyone to change their viewpoint because of my opinion....but I am expressing it anyway.

Geez.

Where did THAT come from?

I said way back, Mickey, that I did not think your riding a horse across land would harm anything. Those were nearly my exact words.

The rest is my impression of some of the ways you described people who were on the pro ban line side, or how you portray them. I don't recall your wording at the moment, and I think I replied to some of it at the time. Not really worth pulling up a second time.

Perhaps you did not mean it to sound that harsh. If not, then sorry.

That's the main problem with ESLers posting in English language forums.

Pep (Involuntary and uncomprehended miscommunication.)

Mickey is ESL? I did not know that. Thanks, Pep.

It does change things a bit in reading her posts.

Although I wouldn't say that women are *completely* unknowable and alien, it is certainly the case that they are *other* in the sense that male and female perspectives on the world and most everything in it are very different and this works both ways: it is as much the foundation of attraction between the sexes as it is the root cause of any issue that might arise in even relatively unimportant aspects of life.

I think the bottom line is that in-world cases of same-sex violence and abuse do not raise the same questions because the politics of man-on-man or woman-on-woman exchanges just are not as complex as mixed encounters. A degree of empathy and equality is built in from the outset. This is just not there to be taken as granted between the sexes, in RL or SL, and it must be earned: the sketchiest question of trust will have to be answered at some point before a woman will accept the attentions of a man. Unless she's a complete headcase, of course, or simply in the mood for living dangerously.

Although I'm sure that the heavier aspects of interaction often go beyond the pale for some, I believe that same-sex situations have an element of psychological laissez-faire that mixed encounters just do not have. The popularity of same-sex environments in SL could just as easily rely on a level of immediate understanding in this respect as much as a particular personal preference or even the desire to experiment: the level of uncertainty in online environments makes it difficult to establish intimate trust in dealing with virtual strangers (cf: every other thread on relationships in these forums) and gender politics become something more of a minefield for mixed relationships than they necessarily would be in RL. The question of gender is in itself a moot point for some.

Certainly it is in my case since man-on-man encounters are not a particular preference of mine in RL and I am still pretty wary, after more than two years, of pressing the wrong buttons in an online encounter with a woman - just in case she really is a woman in RL and she, possibly, doesn't see the online situation in the same way that I do.

Last thing I ever want to do is ruin someone's day but it happens. Nevertheless, some situations are just too loaded to make it worth taking the risk.

ESL seems to be a favourite term of Pep's these days. I'm sure he'll get over it soon enough.

Ignore me then, Ephraim . . .

Pep ( . . . and remain in ignorance. )

PS ESL not ESN, although sometimes it is difficult to tell the difference.

Theyre absolutely no use at maintaining privacy. All these and other stupid security devices do is cause an inconvenience to people who genuinely want to explore sl.

I maintain ban lines also place an unnecessary usage on linden's systems too.

If you are in sl there are systems in place to stop people you dont want coming onto your land without causing a nuisance to everyone....

and if you aren't at home it doesnt matter anyway just be pleased people are interested enough to look around.

If you want privacy go back to r/l and but some barbed wire and large dobermans....

Guess I better open up my private sims to the general public because it is anoying for random map tpers that they get a mesage that they are not alowed to tp to my sim.

Where does this sense of entitlement come from that makes people think they have the right to access someones land that they are not paying for?

Yes getting a verhicle stuck is anoying but that is a bug of how the banlines work not a reason to disalow banlines.

One of the arguments against banlines (they are ugly) is already fixed and I have no doubt the verhicle getting stuck problem will be handled as wel.

I fully sympathize with you
In my profile it says: "If I banned you it is either because your land is not public (or because you insulted me)".
To automatically ban people having not public land, I made the "Region wide Ban scanner".
It is on sale for L$1 in my shops and on XStreet:
https://www.xstreetsl.com/modules.php?name=Marketplace&file=item&ItemID=866374

Clarissa - I took great care in writing some of those posts, because it appeared that you were taking some things I said to a much deeper level then what they were intended for. You took a lot of my thoughts and used some rather harsh labels, as if you took them personally. They were not intended personally. I will not apologize. I've read over my statements and they are not out of line at all.

You don't recall my wording at the moment? Why don't you go back and review. Not worth pulling up? But worth carrying on endlessly about?

If I hit a nerve....that's your problem and not mine. I will not sit here at the keyboard and reword every post 5 times in order to accommodate you any more.

Clarissa - Pep sits at his computer, and watches. When he sees someone take some digs at me, like you did.....he jumps in, right afterwards, because he's not man enough to do it on his own, and not man enough to stand alone.

I generally do not say anything, but he's using you to do his dirty work. You don't strike me as someone who would get off on that.

I don't know what ESL means. Do tell.

Mickey, I have no compunction in making my opinions known whenever an issue piques my interest. It's the posts not the posters that are of relevance. I tend to stay away from your posts because I know that they are based on limited comprehension and even more limited expression, so there is little point in attempting to establish a dialogue.

Pep (ESL is English as a Second Language. )

And there's ESD (English as a second dialect). If anyone knows "Othello" well, then Shakespeare's tragic figure is an excellent example. He practically invents words as he grows more confused. When he is calm his language is simpler and more direct. Great case study of ESL.
Cheer up Pep. The computer world dumbs everyone down when we type.
You always sound irrascible.

That's Funny.