Gambling Returns to Second Life?

I just browsed through this thread again and noticed (in /327/99/272614/3.html#post2084485) Dagmar said that LL Legal did on occasion do some sort of game vetting based on whatever input they got from G-Team; I'm inclined to defer to her expertise on this topic.

As to the "pure speculation" thing in a preceding post: Well, kinda, but if you haven't already read through the back pages of this thread, and the jira comments (which I can't link because the jira is being bitchy at the moment), these may be worth a glance. Folks have been trying for some time to get an official word from LL on this subject, so if some game manufacturers actually did get that official approval, then there's a wholly different problem, of unfair "insider information" (although if true in this case, it would ultimately harm the recipients).

Sorina knows exactly what she's talking about. If you read my earlier post, I had predicted this. This is the way LL has always operated. I am sure the game makers are hard at work trying to find another 'loophole' such as Sapphire Moon, it is still open and you can play blackjack, video poker,slots, and cash your star balance into L$ competing against other players. LL has not shut that down , but they know about it. And why? Theres money to be made. People spend thousands of USD$ at Sapphire Moon, take a look at the space station in the sky, we are talking HIGH stakes. I personally know several people that play there and have lost thousands. Curious to see how long LL will let this continue.

Linden Labs is not Liable for the losses of companies who were doing an activity LL can not legally host.

Thats like ring of car thieves suing the garage they rented and put their chop shop in.

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Hey but I'm sure any lawsuits will be massive success,

After all they have irrefutable evidence ..

Like those impossible to edit Chat Logs.

In real life, businesses resolve potential disputes in writing. After the agents of separate businesses chat out their positions on an issue, someone memorializes it in a letter. A tangible letter, on someone's letterhead, with someone's written-in-ink signature on it.

So for the gambling machine creators dealing with Linden Lab, the best letter would be the one in which a representative of Linden Lab writes to the gambling machine creators something along the lines of, "We reviewed this gambling machine, and agree that its operation does not seem to violate the TOS or gambling policy, though we cannot give legal advice as to whether it violates any laws."

Absent that, the second-best letter is the one sent by the gambling machine creator to a representative of Linden Lab, via certified mail, stating something like, "I am writing to confirm the conversation we had on such-and-such date, in which you told me that my gambling machies would not violate the TOS or gambling policy."

Yes, Linden Lab does seem like an absolutely untrustworthy entity with which to do business. Maybe that's why none of the abundant investment dollars falling from the skies to develop virtual worlds do not find their way to Linden Lab. Because smart business people know to avoid the Mickey-Mouse (TM) operation that is Linden Lab.

However, I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who insist on doing business with Linden Lab, knowing that Linden Lab is trustworthy, and doing absolutely nothing in the way of a meaningful CYA attempt.

If you know Linden Lab will screw you, and you do business with them anyway, then don't act surprised when Linden Lab screws you.

Right Amity and I do agree. However, new people coming into SL do not realize how untrustworthy Linden Labs are. Guess they have to learn the hard way like the rest of us.

Perhaps, but many of these so-called game makers are also amateurs in the field of business and, quite often, DON'T bother to do their homework, or even know what constitutes a legal certification that holds any water in court. Hint: it isn't screenshots, or chat logs, or even emails. All of those can be used as supporting evidence to back up something more concrete but, by themselves, they will get you laughed out of court.

As a game maker, if I am going to spend months of time making something which rides the fringe of a policy via a loophole in it, you better DAMN WELL BELIEVE that I wouldn't write the first line of code, rez the first prim, or upload the first texture or sound until I had a certified letter (the US MAIL kind) from the Linden Lab Legal department, signing off on the EXACT design specification I will use to make the game. Anything less than that is TOTALLY USELESS for filing suit against Linden Lab, because they have SO MANY defenses they can use against anything else, you would have NO chance of prevailing in a civil case against them otherwise.



When it comes to things of questionable RL legality, the G-Team is NOT an authority on the matter, and anyone worth their salt will tell you that some rules enforcement underling will NOT be considered as such by a judge. It's like asking a cop for legal advice; yeah, the cops are supposed to know the law, but unless they have a law degree and a license to practice, they are NOT considered "legal counsel", and are not considered experts on the subject by the courts.



You can believe what you want, and create as many red herring analogies to support your beliefs that you want. However, the simple fact of the matter is that, unless they have the PIECE OF PAPER with the signature of a LEGAL AUTHORITY at Linden Lab saying that they will not consider their game against the ToS, the game makers have ABSOLUTELY NO legal leg to stand on. None. There are enough clauses in the Terms of Service which cover LL's legal arse when it comes to what they can and will allow (and they can even change their minds at ANY time on this!) on their service, that there is little chance of them ever being successfully sued for removing content at their discretion for any reason whatsoever. THAT is why you won't get the letter I am talking about. They are not going to bind themselves legally into allowing any content which they ultimately may have to ban. If I were them, *I* certainly wouldn't do it. That's simply BEGGING to be sued. That's why I don't believe ANY game maker has gone to the lengths necessary to LEGALLY secure their ability to make and sell "legal" gambling machines in SL.



Then they can show the court the proof, and the court can decide. I wish them luck; they're going to need lots of it.



Well, it goes back to an old saying: "Play with fire, get burned." The spirit of the law and the rules is that GAMBLING is verboten. Looking to exploit loopholes in the letter of the law and rules is nothing more than asking for trouble. People know the spirit of the rules, but just can't help themselves to follow them. The pool is closed. That doesn't mean that only swimming is off limits, but also wading, dangling your legs in it, or even sticking your toe in it to see how cold it is, even if the sign only just says "Pool is closed. No swimming".

If you're participating in some activity which is on the fringes of breaking the rules, you should be concerned about whether or not your activity will get you into trouble. LL can and will change their mind at any time on anything. If they decide to ban all sex, including beds and prim bits from the grid next week, they can, and there's NOTHING that X-cite or Stroker can do or say about it. NOTHING.



I don't care about gambling one way or another, myself. The only thing I am pointing out is the lunacy of people who think they will be able to legally get away with dodging the LAW via playing with loopholes in the rules, and getting non-authorities to give them useless "permissions" to do so. They've been asking the Pool Guy (you know, the one who cleans the pool) if they can come in and use the pool "but we won't swim, ok?", and get upset when the owner/manager of the pool shows up and kicks them out. "But the Pool Guy said we could!" "So? The Pool Guy has NO authority to give that kind of permission." "We're gonna sue!" "Go ahead; make my day."



Well, I hate to burst your bubble, but people do stupid things every day. Remember Ginko? There are people who lost THOUSANDS of US$ in that Ponzi scheme. Even had people defending GinkoGuy right up to the very end, just like they did when Ponzi himself ran his. If there is one thing that is a constant in the universe, it is the level of stupidity human beings can achieve without a whole lot of effort. Sometimes, even with a MASSIVE amount of effort, they can achieve some truly MONUMENTAL EPIC FAIL.

Besides, US$6000 is pocket change compared to many stupid losses. You know how many people have lost HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS to MILLIONS of US$ on Nigerian 419 scams? Those things are so laughably obvious that you have to be profoundly retarded to be taken by one. Yet, many people have been, and likely, will continue to be taken by them.



You've seen the paper letters legally authorizing these games? Cool! Where can I find a copy?



Gambling on the internet is illegal. People making gambling machines that work over the internet, regardless of how they work are asking for trouble. There's no fraud at work here. LL has NEVER guaranteed ANYone the non-repudiable right to make content within SL. The ToS says this in several areas. People who bought gambling machines are just as much liable for their own folly as the ones who made the machines themselves. Don't like it? Cry to someone else.



That's about the ONLY thing I will agree with that you have said; Linden Lab (NOT "Linden Labs" is a very amateurish organization and has shown that, in many areas, it is simply not competent. However, incompetence is not necessarily criminal, and when it comes to things of a questionable legal nature, especially with respect to content which only has a revokable license to be published within the SL service, there's really not a whole lot anyone can do if their content is "revoked" under said license.

/me thinks about posting ... but I've had enough worrying about compliance with gaming laws in the real job. It ain't ever coming back, people. Not without radical legislation changes.

***NOTE Gambling on the internet is NOT illegal. Unlicenced gambling on the internet is illegal. Taking bets from some countries is illegal. It is a minefield best kept out of.

It is illegal for US credit card companies to make payments to Gambling Sites though.

Well when you get those trying to make money by sucking in punters using every loophole available to do so it makes it damn hard for anyone not a lawyer who hapepens to be familar with the systems to make descisions, so what we will have next thanks to those people is a blanket ban on any game requireing $L gambling or not, you will not be able to charge people to shoot bots or targets, heck I might not even be able to charge people to use my sandbox or rez vehicles on my land if it gets deemed a game.
But because SL allows you to script your own stuff and slant the odds as you wish, people will keep doing so as long as money can be used.
LL clearly don't want that and have concerns with US gambling laws over it, so it would be greate if the people involved would take notce of the headslapping they are recieving before they just stuff the world up for the rest of us with their greed.
"OH NO! Some company is not letting me do what I want to so I can make money for nothing... Good I'll sue their arse off"
"Some human beings have made a mistake preventing me from earning more money for nothing... Good...I'll sue them now too..."
But as long as people get money for nothing they don't care what people think of them.
Gawd there are some leeches about........................

Specifically, what is illegal is the transfer of funds from a financial institution to an internet gambling site.

Semantics and technicalities aside, for all intents and purposes for the sake of argument, gambling within the Second Life venue IS *effectively* illegal.

It doesn't matter that the simple act of gambling itself isn't technically illegal, since the process of sending money to LL for the express purpose of gambling is illegal.

It doesn't matter that there are exemptions, they don't include SL or LL.

It doesn't matter that it is a US-only law. LL is a US corporation, and is bound by it. Thus, so are all its customers within the venue, regardless of whether they are in the US or not.

* Spank. *

Edited for brevity, quoted for truth. Any expectation that a lawsuit will have any chance at all is misplaced and laughable. Good luck. I wish I were one of LL's lawyers when this suit came in; I'd have a field day.

Talarus talked about getting a certified letter specifically approving the games from LL's legal counsel. He's right - that would work. It's a moot issue, though. No lawyer in his right mind is going to produce that letter. If I give an opinion letter on certain issues, I have to jump through all sorts of hoops or my malpractice insurance carrier has kittens, and those issues aren't even anywhere near as sticky as internet gaming. There is no lawyer anywhere who is going to opine about the validity and legality of Second Life gambling schemes to someone other than LL (ie - give an opinion that could create legal liability for his client, LL, just to benefit someone who is not a client and could wind up in an adverse situation. See why a malpractice carrier would have a meltdown?)

Personally, I like gambling. It's fun. When I go out, I have a set budget that I can afford, and if I lose it, I lose it. It's the price of entertainment. However, Second Life gambling was an invitation to fraud and a disaster. I hope it stays gone.

First no law was broken outside possible internet fraud or simple actionalble levels of neglect on the lindens part. Also if there was a law broken Linden Labe Employees DID help them by enabling them and not removing them 6 months ago. Second Who are you and what transcripts are you talking about. Where did you get them and from who. They were aware of the whole system not some match card game. 100% aware. If you have these alegged transcripts you some how aquired send them on. There were more than just ims and messages involved in this.


Please if you want to response read my posting if you want some factual information. Given your not a linden I find it completely implausible you read anything of the sort.

Yes they clearly dropped the ball. And the whole transparent concept is about trying to avoid as much legal responsibility as humanly possible up to and including trying to write TOS to completely remove all consumer rights. Such as linden currency has no value is a huge joke. If they had no value the FBI wouldnt have investigated after the US governement decided to eliminate online gambling. Also the fact you can buy and sell and there are people that make significant and part time and full time income from SL is a clear demonstration they have value. Also there are cases they of a land return bug that they don't own up responsibility for. One game owner I know of lost $380 US dollars worth of legal games. Also I had a friend who here sim was obliterated. She had the most incredible SL artwork you ever saw. Your right Linden Labs very much needs to be accountable like any other business. They can't write off all legal and economical damaged they cause because some lawyer wrote some in game rules. Sorry that doesnt over ride the real laws. I agree with the LL is coming off as deceptive. There has not been a single announcement or changes in rules why they did what they did after clearly profiting off it. Many are missing the point its not about if the games were against TOS if when Linden Labs was consulted and they said wait these are against TOS I know 100% for a fact that the game and game systems would not have been made.

Again people listen up they knew for 6 months or more about these systems

they were ticketed they investigated they investigated they found nothing against the Law or TOS and they left them intact.

they were given full knowledge about what zorkmid was all about

They suddenly shifted gears and banned them later after profitiing off land sales and money purchases


If they dealted with it

Most importantly Linden Labs is not responding and not offering explanations

The longer they do that the longer it appears to be a issue of fraud than gross neglect.

???? They did their OFficial Gambling transparency? we all get it?? what ????? read the blog read the responses and mass confusion. Then tell me again we all get it. IF you dont like games fine. They left so much confusion and things unclear its not even funny. This is why I hate forums people just talk out of their rear ends

I didnt bother reading past the part about the so called game makers not doing their homework. Forums are a waste of time for these kinds of assumptions. I know for a fact they did do their homework and even had legal consultation on the matter.

Ok I like dI Read down a little further I know that some of these games were already created and ready to go before the first ban so they were all but done.

Also emails and electronic communications are usable in a court of law. Welcome to the 21st century.

The G Team are the ones trained to identify items against TOS and against the law. When they find such a thing that is against TOS and against the law they remove them. If they do not Anyone with half a brain would consult with their superiors on it.

Well I can talk to a few lawyer aqaintances to find out. But you clearly didnt read the posting your just on the attack of games for whatever silly purpose. The problem wasn't that hte game was against TOS or against the law. Neiither are true. They were within TOS and within the Law as far as I know and as far as the game maker's legal council knows and agood number of people who are public representatives and others within Linden labs felt so also. The reason was never given why linden labs suddenly changed their minds after 6 months.

Again if you pay attention its about actionable gross neglect. With 100% full knowledge they allowed it. They let it go people purchased land, currency etc and Linden labs profitted off it. Assuming for a second it was illegal. In that case Linden Labs profited from illegal activities with full knowledge. Linden Labs is an accessory assuming that it was illeagal.

It isnt about it being banned if you read anything I wrote. It's about the fact they allowed it and endorsed it directly or indirectly.

I wont bother responding to all your points since 90% are based in pure assumption. Red herring sorry but if it was illegal activity and wern't involved one way or another dont you think they wound not have given it a grace period and just send everything back like they have countless times before???????

The red herring thats going in at least in this forum is people making claims they read linden ims and messages. That the Game makers involved did not consult legal council and did not do their homework. To declare them to be amateurs in the field of business I know more about what happened than anyone in this forum. I talked to them all the time because of my game store and game magazine in game. Lastly what you dont understand a civil trial you dont have the burden of proving beyond a shadow of a doubt. There is far more than enough to prove linden neglect.

PS: Wow you really know now to ramble how did we get to nigerian scams.

Linden labs is responsible for actively allowing and saying such activity is ok. They profiting off said activity for 6 months including profiteering off land sales and money purchases

Customers of Linden Labs seriously needs some basic consumer protection that every other US based country has to own up to. Sorry Linden Labs isnt above the law just because they attempt to write it into their TOS

Ok people don't understand whats legal and illegal on the internet. What is illegal is credit cards and paypal can't process charges to online casinos. I forget the penalty but I am 90% certain its in the form of hefty fines. Locally if you play a gambling game online thats a different issue. Also federally gambling isn't illegal it is determined state by state. This is also why Native American Tribes can have casinos on their land (ie loophole) because its not state land its federal. Licences make no difference for online otherwise you would be gambing at websites owned by nevada and atlantic city casinos.

HOW MANY TIMES DO i HAVE TO REPEAT IT. IF YOU CANT READ THE POST DONT RESPOND!!!

Its about Linden labs giving the go ahead, its about linden labs knowing for 6 months. its about linden labs profiteering and after they made their money pull the plug thats what a classs action will be about not because they banned it. HELLO PEOPLE. Let me repeat it several times so people dont miss it again

NOT ABOUT: Games or game systems being banned (they had 6 months for this), not about filing suite because they wont allow games.

IT IS ABOUT: Linden Labs saying its ok. Knowing for 6 months. being consulted by the game makers every step of the way. Multiple game systems being found NOT to be against TOS or the law. Linden labs makes money off land and money purchases. other issues. Later banning systems after profiting. If that was intentional that was fraud if it wasnt then its gross neglect. Only thing that can clear LL of all this if a law was passed that weekend.

I repeast

NOT ABOUT: Games or game systems being banned (they had 6 months for this), not about filing suite because they wont allow games.

IT IS ABOUT: Linden Labs saying its ok. Knowing for 6 months. being consulted by the game makers every step of the way. Multiple game systems being found NOT to be against TOS or the law. Linden labs makes money off land and money purchases. other issues. Later banning systems after profiting. If that was intentional that was fraud if it wasnt then its gross neglect. Only thing that can clear LL of all this if a law was passed that weekend.

Again I only mentioned one individual who invested $6000 US dollars. Thats only one individual. there were well over 300 zorkmid games and a lot of other systems in place. All I am saying since LL is clearly guilty of blatant neglect in the best case scenario. Worst case they actively engaged in fraud depending on their flimsy TOS to keep them in the clear of real life laws. Let's just pretend that all 300 invested that much money for a second this means Linden labs profiteered $1,800,000 US dollars. Thats just guess based on one figure and of course that doesnt account for time invested in good faith based on feed back from Linden labs. It's very simple really Linden Labs needs to offer all those involved that made that kind of investments 100% refund. That is the only right thing to do.

Some people in this forum don't seem to care about that kind of disgusting activity. Hmm a game to play or the possiblity of defrauding customers through either neglect or intentionally. No word from Linden Labs so it looks like they have no concern over concepts of right and wrong.

For the record Bicky Beans is still in operation with his Sweepstakes gambling games. Also anyone that things linden labs wouldnt allow full out gambling if they could is a fool. But again take a look at the issues of possible fraud. Sorry thats still a crime last I checked.

Why do you even respond when you know nothing of the facts???[

QUOTE=Trout Recreant]Edited for brevity, quoted for truth. Any expectation that a lawsuit will have any chance at all is misplaced and laughable. Good luck. I wish I were one of LL's lawyers when this suit came in; I'd have a field day.

Talarus talked about getting a certified letter specifically approving the games from LL's legal counsel. He's right - that would work. It's a moot issue, though. No lawyer in his right mind is going to produce that letter. If I give an opinion letter on certain issues, I have to jump through all sorts of hoops or my malpractice insurance carrier has kittens, and those issues aren't even anywhere near as sticky as internet gaming. There is no lawyer anywhere who is going to opine about the validity and legality of Second Life gambling schemes to someone other than LL (ie - give an opinion that could create legal liability for his client, LL, just to benefit someone who is not a client and could wind up in an adverse situation. See why a malpractice carrier would have a meltdown?)

Personally, I like gambling. It's fun. When I go out, I have a set budget that I can afford, and if I lose it, I lose it. It's the price of entertainment. However, Second Life gambling was an invitation to fraud and a disaster. I hope it stays gone.[/QUOTE]

NO, it's about people having a cry that the loopholes that allowed their schemes they came up with after the first gambling ban have now been shut off too. They can't accept the fact LL run the show, if you're not happy, there's the door.
Big deal someone said their ok 6 months back, did they specify a date or were people just dumb/blind to just assume that was an infinate duration?
They can't accept change so now they are bleating SUE! SUE! SUE! in some feeble attempt to gain pity for a reversal.

And you called someone out for rambling, Sorina?

You seem to want to have your sour grapes in extended remix form, but nobody is allowed to respond unless they agree with you?

Righto.

Yep why not just form a mob and call for the sacking of the Linden concerned, maybe someone will do that for us in RL next time we fail to meet perfection when dealing with weasels?

Sorina, you need to get out of the house more often