Gambling Returns to Second Life?

LOL, there was never an official confirmation, and gambling boffins didn't check the legality of what they were investing in for themselves, which is just pure negligence on their part and they got burned for failing to do so.

Oh sorry forgot to mention. Skill games are legal outside of Second life. There are Monopoly Tournaments, chess tournaments, even car races have a fee to enter the race with money to win. Online skill game sites are all over. There was even a bill to help protect skill games to make sure that they are excluded from wagering laws and interstingly enough it included Poker in that list of skill games. One of the problems in real life and SL is games at casinos were automatically thrown into gambling laws. Plenty say that was the brick and mortar casinos that pushed that through. But realistically Poker for example is a skill game. There are professional players lots of books on stratedgies. Same with Blackjack but probably to a leser extent. Don't think I ever seen a stratedgy guide on slot machines though other than urban myths about a hot or cold machine and such. Never heard of a professional slot machine player either. It is just the real life law coming up with a way of measuring how much skill is required. Skill games are legal and if they determine some of the current games aren't it would just take some small adjustments to address those issues. For me I am suprised that elements that double or half your scores randomly dont have issues. But if they determined them ok thats great. But it woudl be wrong for them to suddenly turn on them after allowing those as well without some kind of justification.

Also funny note. I havent seen TOS or the blog updated addressing this issue so it seems they change TOS not updated it and enforced something in which no body agreed to. And no sorry legally you can't ammend a contract without the other party reviewing it and agreeing to it as well.

Tegg go look at the law you keep using the law illegal. Also were talking about systems that were operating within TOS and the law with linden approval. THEY INVESTED IN THEM BECAUSE OF LINDEN APPROVAL let me repeat you keep missing that or I should say avoiding that because of some personal reasons. THEY INVESTED IN THEM BECAUSE OF LINDEN APPROVAL one more time because you keep missing that THEY INVESTED IN THEM BECAUSE OF LINDEN APPROVAL. It's their fault they approved thats not an opinion its a fact which is documented. No amount of silly arguments from you can possibly change the facts. I know its a tradtion in forumns like this is a contest but its an argument you can't possibly win with teh actual facts are considred. THEY INVESTED IN THEM BECAUSE OF LINDEN APPROVAL did you get that yet?

You can play they have no cash out system in place. The skill games were shut down at the demand of LL

Again that starbox is a game not a cash out system. It was there before the match games were asked to be pulled

Can you not start a sentence without a LOL. whats wrong with you. YES THERE WAS. it was announced publicly at a public meeting. I posted a link to another site showing it. Go scroll back and read it. It isn't in dispute that they didnt confirm it being legal there are a lot of witnesses and its in multiple peoples chat logs and on other websites. Get the facts if you want to spout fiction go to your local comic book store. http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/business-land-economy/14502-gambling-still-trying-come-back.html Its entry #25 We been over this if you cant keep up with the discussion why you still participating

Except when one agrees to a contract that starts out with "Linden Lab may amend this Agreement at any time in its sole discretion...."

I'm not sure what's being argued here anymore. I think it's pretty clear that at least one and possibly several Lindens "misspoke" (a popular current euphemism) when apparently approving pretend-skill cash-out schemes such as Z$. And I think it's clear that LL would allow (and profit from allowing) gambling if it weren't for the absolute stranglehold they're in from US credit card companies and PayPal, who in turn must comply with UIGEA. So it's not like LL actually has any real choice in the terms of its gambling "policy"; it appears, however, that it was for a time too optimistic about interpretation and enforcement, and had to revise those practices.

And some folks got caught in the shuffle. I'm not sure, but if the premise is that those folks should be compensated--that is to say, a slice of everybody's tier payments should go to fixing *this* rather than fixing the platform or providing better customer service--the broad reception for that proposition may be less than enthusiastic.

Bear in mind that the Bragg cased ruled that the TOS was partially unenforcable, possibly because of this. You can put whatever you like into a contract, but the courts don't have to support it, especially when it is a "take-it-or-leave-it contract" as the SL TOS is. AFAIK, the only way you can put absolutely anything into a contract with someone, is if you give them the contract via a human being they can negotiate with, and even then they have to seal it rather than sign it (!)

Except that is not legal to amend to an agreement without both parties agreeing let alone establishing rules which arent even known. Misspoke is a gross understatement. It was beyond clear and hundreds of people accepted this from an Linden who is trained to interpret TOS of what is legal and whats not and removes games and other thigns routinely.

Well the idea was people who spent money on land, currency etc, should have the opportunity to get a full refund with no fees. It's not right for Linden Labs to profit off other peoples expense because they clearly screwedup. But that would be the decision of the policy setters. It wouldnt affect fixing the platform because computer engineers and programmers are not likely in charge of customer service or making those kinds of decisions so thats a silly point. Better customer services thats an issue. But a short term issue of linden labs acting like grown ups and saying we messed up. We are prepared to fix this. It's not one in world Linden that messed up. They have been aware of this for months now and were consulted every step in the case of zorkmid and other systems had lindens all over it. As a company they messed up it was beyond just a few statements. People screw up, companies screw up. Nobody is perfect but the measure of a person's or companies character and professionalism is how they handle things when they do make a big mistake like this. So far Linden Labs has completely failed. Your right they would allow gambling if they could they lost a lot of income themselves when they banned it the first time. Perhaps that is what happened. They saw these loop holes some thought yes this is great we can generate some income again but later someone pointed something out something that hasn't been stated and as a company they said oh crap we have to stop this. But they gave it the ok they might have been blinded by the gleam of gold from the casinos from the old days. Still they allowed people to get their hopes up. invest countless hours in some cases, significant amounts of money and then came the oh crap. In the process Linden Labs proftited off of it while its customers money and land purchases. If they want to make good just let them have the opportunity to get that money back from land and money purchases with no fees. If it went to court it would end up getting worse, people will start throwing in time for game development based on linden's ok, equipment purchases such as servers that some may have purchased. Scripting costs in some cases where scripters were contracted out. That's what will happen. I think Linden Labs like any company is afraid to offer an appology or a make good thinking it might open doors to lawsuits. Which can still happen. It would just be a matter of contacting a class action attorney and put out the documented facts of the case. I for one would hope that can all be avoided but it just takes Linden Labs to act like real grown ups. Companies rarely do so I shouldn't expect too much. Back to your point I think all that would effect SL as a whole if they don't act on the situation. Not even statement one has been put forward through the blog or other sources. But not sure what you meant about a slice of everybody's tier to go to fixing thigns exactly but no it needs to come from Linden Labs and not from residents if thats what you meant. For instance someone bought a sim during that time frame and perhaps can demonstrate that fact they should get the full dollar amount refunded to the penny if they so wish to relinquish that land. Same would go for money purchases. Of course perhaps a fixed date say the launch of zorkmids if that was the system they invested in. As for the game makers that invested in some cases months at a time that is more complicated and would be best be resolved on a one on one basis. The other option is class action and with that additional legal fees, unwanted wide spread media attention. And for those that use the cliche that there is no such things as bad press that can't be further from the truth I can tell you that for a fact as someone that has worked in the television news media. Just ask Wendy's how there business was when that story about the thumb in the chilli broke.

I think perhaps the point is missed, because it's not at all silly. If LL has to spend US$100,000 to compensate gaming developers, that's one fewer full-time employee they can have on-staff for a year (modulo actual salaries, overhead, G&A, etc).

As to whether the contract itself is binding in granting one party the right to change the terms: I'd expect that would be a function of the jurisdiction and the specific change. For example, it would be safe to assume that LL couldn't amend the contract to require the other parties to sacrifice their first-born male children. Amending the contract (or, really, just the enforcement of the interpretation of the contract) in order to comply with the UIGEA, however, would seem like the sort of thing the courts might approve.

Don't ya think?

OK, I'm only popping into this discussion from time to time and I've apparently missed why you think any kind of refund is warranted. People involved with the new gambling systems were able to freely use, and presumably profit from, their land during the last few months and they're still free to do so now, if in a slightly more restricted manner...LL hasn't taken anything away from them except an already inherently risky business model. And, if they can no longer afford to pay tier, they can always sell and recoup some money that way. So why should LL refund them?

sorina they DO have cash out system. you play blackjack or videopoker to win star credits then you take those star credits to the starbox machine that is a videopoker game and win linden $ there. or lose them.

correct sorina its always been there. you had a choice of cashing your star credits using match game OR the starbox machine playing competitive videopoker.i know because i play them so do my friends. matching game is shut down ,starboxx is NOT

LOL, just get over it dude the goose is dead. Time to move to another grid.........
Public meetting? Because one Linden turned up, I guess you can point to a LL blog announcement of the "Public Meeting" then?
LL can't end the aggreement without both parties, what complete crap, so if they say somethings ok in chat it is ok for infinity unless the both parties agree to change it? It's their business, they make the rules get over it and start your own.

Can someone buy Sorina an Enter key?

Seems like it broke towards that last post there.

Yes you missed a lot of info. Try to keep this brief but a number of game makers found some loopholes to legally and within TOS have gambling games such as video poker, roulette, slots, blackjack etc. Linden labs was consulted every step of the way with Zorkmid and in a public G-Team meeting they confirmed that because players won from a skill game that it was all legal. Keep in mind they were consulted roughly for 3 months while this was developed and zorkmid was based on an existing system which has survived linden inspection as well. Later for no clear reason Lindens contacted the owners of these systems to shut them down without any additional TOS being released or reven a blog. So on the word of Linden Lab officials responsible for enforcing and interpreting TOS these games were developed on their very public ok and declaration that it is all legal. OF course sims were purchased, linden currency was purchased, games etc. One game maker told me he invested 15 million linden. I game from his sim and he now seems to be selling off all his land and his skill game vendors are off line. Just a guess but to me seems like he is leaving SL. Shortly after the ban another system their sim appears to be gone you can't port to it. But back to your question why LL should refund them for this situation is because they publicly gave them the ok and they invested money into sims money purchases etc and of course Linden labs profits. Then they sudddenly decide to pull the plug and linden lab walks off with profits and people are left with purchased sims money they no longer have a use for in some cases. They should be refunded what they invested. Perhaps the time game makers put into it could be handled separately if they decide to take it to court. Sure they could possibly sell and recoup possibly at a loss but of course that would just be more profit for linden labs for making a colossal error if thats what it was. Yes they can sell try to recoup themselves but Linden labs should give them the option of refunding them and they shouldnt have to pay for the tier int he process if they have to wait for the sim to sell. They should be refunded because Linden Labs without question made a huge error costing a good amount of people money. But you seem to missed a lot of info this is a recent occurance. And no they are not able to use the systems they approved and no they can't do the same in a slightly more resticited manner. And lastly no new TOS has been announced so there is no new restrictions that have been announced.

I been there time and again its a game not a cash out system. A cash out system translates to a no skill no risk system which was pulled. I played those systems if you use it as a cash out system thats kind of silly. IF they have other plans down the road I dont know. But that game your talking about has been there for a month I believe and before the ultimatum to shut down the matching card game as cash to exchange as was phrazed by Harry linden the game credits for lindens. I am not sure but I think the basic real skill or risk match game was an issue. The J system actually had a skill level that was involved with it. I know when I was cashing out on that system when the neo ban came down I was so flustered I had to play it like 15 times before I won hahahah. The game yoru talkig about is a game you compete for points against other players if you try to use it as a cash out system you will most likely lose money

I am not even going as far as saying to compensate game developers for their time which realisticly they should given the situation. I am just saying others that purchased sims, money and such get a full refund as an option if they so decided to enact that option. In most cases it just means that linden labs doesnt make the money they did off thee game makers and game owners. At least the game makers are offering an exchange for the games they sold for skill games. Whats wrong with lindens doing the same for puchased sims and currency just offer 100% full exchange what what they purchased them for. In the case of sims. If they reduce one employee over this error thats their decision they can of course just take the loss as a hit to profit and learn from their mistakes. As far s the UIGEA that's not really the point and there is no clear violation of that law from what I understand. I Am not a lawyer but I know at least one game maker had his attorney look into those issues. But the issue is not that law but the fact linden lab representatives with full knowledge of the issues declared those systems legal then after profiting they declared themnot legal with no new TOS being introduced or new real life laws past that I am aware of. They did give 3 days for game makers and owners time to wrap things up though. One reason sited by a game maker was because they openly declared them legal. IF the loop holes were legit and worked within the law and TOS or not thats a different matter.

Are you familiar with the G team meetings on Governance island? Apparently not. They have public meetings there a couple times a week. If not I am not sure why you are continuing to comment on things you have zero knowledge on. Your so laughable I suppose thats why you start every single response with LOL. It all makes sense now

LOL, yeah I been to those meetings, and'd I'd hardly take anything said there as final word forever, like some gullible people have, it's laughable people are silly enough to risk money into an investment with nothing more than one line of chat approving it. They pulled the plug, game over, get used to it kids. What date was the magical approval due to expire? Hmm no answer? Never? Did everyone agree on never? Where is the chat log for that again?

Well now, that 3-day advance notice is new information, indeed. One can't help but wonder exactly what that communication looked like.

Anyway, I'm *very* skeptical that a lawyer with knowledge of UIGEA told any game maker that it was going to be legal for credit card companies to pay Linden Lab for charges associated with the game systems that used the phony skill cash-out scheme. I can easily imagine that lawyers may have told those game makers that the games themselves were legal--they certainly are. What's illegal, and what forced LL's hand, is the fact that the credit card companies would indisputably break UIGEA if they were to fund charges for such games.

How anyone at LL could ever have imagined otherwise is the mystery--and it is a mystery.

I still don't think there's a hope in hell of compensation. The whole thing is only maybe a few tens of thousand US$s. Hell, every time LL rolls out a new server, they accidentally break scripted content with more value than that. If the folks involved in this weren't prepared for that loss, they just picked the wrong business. I mean, even if LL hadn't acted voluntarily, this is an area where the laws could very easily have changed anyway. It was always an extraordinarily high-risk undertaking, and quite obviously so, with or without any approvals from LL.