Gambling Returns to Second Life?

I've talked with Aargle and someone else that works with him.

My guess is that slnn got it all mixed up as usual, but on the off-chance that there's anything more than the developers' wishful thinking behind this, it will probably spell the end of *all* "skill-based" wagering games in-world.

It really makes no difference what "loophole" exists in Linden policy. All that matters is what the credit card companies can legally allow. They're pretty unlikely to get away with this, once challenged on UIGEA grounds.

Once AMEX and WaMu and PayPal and etc line up outside Linden counsel's door, there'll be a swift and silent change in G-Team's marching orders, and say goodbye to the "skill-based" loophole.

... Just because the system is divided up into a couple of parts which seemingly get around the letter of the rule doesn't magically make it "not gambling".
...

... Fish is a guessing game which has a significant random factor involved: the luck of the draw, thus, it cannot be "pure skill". "Tic tac toe" is pure skill. Chess is pure skill. Checkers is pure skill. Backgammon is not. The vast majority of card games are not.

Thats the question; Is it one or two ??? If they're seen as one event then your argument makes sense. If they are seen as two separate events then your argument is immaterial. One day sometime it maybe answered in a court of law. Until then its forum fodder for us =)

Games like tic-tac-toe, checkers and chess are games of pure rote. The absence of chance doesn't make them games of pure skill. Deep Blue is not skilful.

Sports like tennis, rugby, netball, golf, etc are games of pure skill in my opinion. But then the bounce of the ball, the gust of the wind and all that; makes them not, when we apply the rigour of your argument. Which I think would be unfortunate if we did, so I won't =)

Yep, it goes back to what I have said in the other gambling threads; while it is up to LL to determine what "is" and "is not" "gambling" under their own rules, the fact of the matter is that all of this crap IS gambling, by definition, loophole or not.

In fact, in the case of this group, I think it is about as defiant and "in your face" as it can get, and I would expect that, if the Lindens have any backbone at all, it will be squished with extreme prejudice.

I hope they can get their day jobs back.....

LL banned gambling, not because of a specific legal challenge, but because of the increasing likelihood that they would become involved in one at some point, and also from pressure from their credit card processors who were threatening sanctions if they didn't come into compliance.

I think games like Zyngo survived only because they aren't understood outside of SL. But when you offer Blackjack, Poker, Roulette, etc., that's understood by all concerned as gambling, loophole or not. Looking at the loophole as I understand it, I have a few concerns:

- The skill game is designed to collect one for one in Linden what you win in Zorkmids on the gambling games. For example, if you win 5000 Zorkmids at the Blackjack game, you get 5000L when you complete the skill game. That makes the Zorkmids nothing more than a redeemable casino token.

- Even if you lose the skill game, you don't lose your collected Zorkmids. You can play the skill game again until successfully complete it and than collect your gambling winnings. It's a mere formality to complete the skill game. The only time you can lose winnings is if you play the gambling games. If the skill game was difficult or imposed true risk of losing one's banked gambling winnings, nobody would play the game. So the loophole of 'skill' is questionable at best.

- When you lose at the gambling games, you don't get to play the skill game to recover the gambling loses. If you lose 5000 Zorkmids, you lost 5000 Linden and the casino is pocketing that Linden as gambling revenue. That revenue was gained purely from gambling and none from the skill game. Doubt the tax authorities or the governments will buy the loophole.

As I see it, the Zorkmids are virtual casino tokens which you can redeem for Linden cash at any time & the skill game is a clever ruse. While I'm opposed to the gambling ban, one can pretty much predict what's going to happen with this system. Interpreting Linden silence on the matter as approval, people get excited; buy lots of land (Linden smiles at that part) and machines, open up casinos and it's party time. Six months later, Linden wakes up from it's self-imposed fog and shuts them all down.

It is doubtful it will ever be determined in a court of law here, since LL can choose to determine for themselves what to allow on their service and what not to allow. However, if a court of law determines that it IS the same, it becomes academic.

Tic-tac-toe may be "pure rote", because one can memorize at least a small set of rules, if not board configurations themselves which will always end the same way or better every time. However, checkers and chess are far too complex for that, and chess especially can have outcomes based on gamesmanship. Deep Blue also never wins every time, and it does learn from experience, which means that it CAN have "skill" (defined as "Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience".

I'm pretty sure it was mostly the latter (the law affecting CC companies). ...

Yes it is academic now as far as oldskool casinos go in SL. They're gone and thats the end of that. The legal question remains unanswered though. More so for online poker rooms I think, most of which are still operating. At some point someone will test them in the courts.

I wondered why you raised the skill factor as a consideration in your previous post and then rebutted it in the same post. I was interested in where you were going with it. Now I know =)

... The Unlawful Internet Gambling Act of 2006 is the particular federal law that poses the concern. And the problem is, that law doesn't actually define what gambling is.

If you read the statute, it really basically says, the types of gaming that is illegal is the unlawful gaming. Really. ...

I'm always confused as to why the big deal about gambling in SL when Yahoo Games endorses this site: www.king.com

You can play for real or fake money(jewels). You can deposit and withdraw USD.

But I can't figure out what the difference is between the games on that site and the games in SL.

Gambling addiction is seen as a mental illness.

In actuality, it preys on the mathematics of "chance", and fundamental belief that one may "beat the system", blindly and without thought.


In either light, the proliferation of gambling is seen as abusive, because it preys on the weak of mind or failure to grasp basic mathematics.

And yet, governments use this very frequently to raise tax revenue (ie, lotteries).


So what you're seeing, is nothing more than a government protecting its own interests by removing competition -- in the guise of a social good. With everyone else being forced to play along.


Clear as mud?

Clear as mud?

Legalized Gambling in the US is far more wisdespread than many believe. Many people only think of Nevada or Atlantic City, but 48 of the 50 States allow gambling of some form. 17 States allow Casinos, not including Indian Casinos. Contrary to popular belief, Gambling is Legal under Federal Law, it is up to each State to decide whether to allow it. Nevada is the only one where it is permitted State wide.

I mean, most real civilised countries have a system where you can't just ask for an official judgment to be made about the law unless you're actually on trial, and when the judgment is made, it's public.

I'm sorry, but this is flat wrong. Virtually all civilized countries, including the US have a system where you CAN get an interpretation on a law or rule prior to engaging in activity that could get you arrested and put on trial.

In the US, you can get opinion letters on virtually anything. For example, if I wanted to put a similar game in my real life establishment, I would be worried about unregulated gambling. In the US, for the most part, gambling is regulated at the State level. I would go to the Attorney General's Office here in Washington, or to the Washington Gambling Commission and describe the game to them in detail. They would reply with an opinion letter that stated that the game was legal, or that the game required certain gaming licenses, or that it was illegal and that it would not be licensed no matter what I did.

There are similar sytems in place in virtually every "civilized" country in the world. Imagine the alternative! People and companies would have to take a shot in the dark, hoping their innovation was legal and that they wouldn't get arrested because they misinterpreted the language in some law, or worse, because a new administration came in and changed the previous interpretation of a rule. Nobody would put up with that sort of nonsense.

At any rate, I don't see what is any different about what these game designers did. They got an official Linden ruling on whether the game was legal or not prior to putting it into use. Good for them! Most of the people trying to get around the gambling ban try to sneak their games in and hope they don't get caught.

Ummm, well, no, not really. I'm not asking about the moral or social implications of gambling. I just don't understand why it's ok for Yahoo to have online gaming/gambling but not SL.