Gambling Returns to Second Life?

A pretty accurate description. But you have to add in the Puritan ethics of The US of A as well, where indulging in anything at all 'too much' is considered a sin.

Of course, the fact that people gamble away their savings, putting themselves and their families out on the street is a factor too.

I think it would be more fair to say *compulsive* gambling is a problem. The USA just has a problem with being moderate on anything. It always seems to be an all or nothing proposition.

A side note on this currently popular dispersion about the US ..

Less than 3% of all Americans follow a religion descended from the Puritans.

While the Puritan religion originated in Europe .. and there are actually larger Calvinists/Presbyterian proportions in many European countries than in the United States.

This of course is besides the point of the modern Presbyterian church being rather liberal in most of its policies.

While the Puritans did run the Massachusetts colony for period of time in the 17th century (to increasing resentment)- their existence as a political force in the US was just a footnote by the time of the American Revolution.

This would be in stark contrast to say ... England where the Puritans actually took power for a time and produced what nearly was a military dictatorship under Cromwell and pursued a civil war.


I often wonder if Thanksgiving advertisements over the years have simply been too successful and the image of the Pilgrim simply too glamorized.

Since the puritan comments have basically risen up mainly in the last few years because Bush is seen as a Christian fundamentalist .. it is interesting to note Bush is actually Methodist, which is an offshoot of the Anglican church started more than 100 years after the Puritans.

It is funny how an entire country can been seen as deeply religious or godless based upon how the President is perceived.

I do not remember people claiming that we were overly Religeous when Clinton was in Office.

As to how it affects gambling ..

As Brenda pointed out theres gambling in most of the US already - so the puritans did a bad job keeping it under wraps.

I think the only Almighty involved in keeping gambling regulated is the Almighty Dollar.

Nope. They didn't. I think there were some rumblings about it, but basically, they just announced a rule. It would have been nice to get some clarification as to what was allowed and what wasn't, but I think they avoided that so they could leave themselves as much wiggle room as possible.

Actually, the US' system allows for some notice and comment prior to a law being passed. At the very least, legislators get a chance to take a look and vote on it. There are no official opinion letters like I was talking about, though, so when a new law goes into effect, often there is a rash of opinion letters that come out as the various agencies impacted by the law scramble to come up with whatever interpretationg they are going to apply. Obviously, this doesn't apply with certain types of laws that have little to now administrative enforcement, but for things like gambling especially that have massive amounts of administrative oversight, the Gambling commission in the jurisdiction is going to have its hands full when the new law comes out.

Don't forget that most jurisdictions, state or federal also have significant administrative codes which, depending on the law in question, may be more important than the statute. It can be a real mess to sort through this stuff. Personally, I HATE dealing with the administrative code. It's usually illogical, poorly written, and impossible to parse out. Blech. Maddening.

Actually Bush is but a minor footnote in what has been a centuries long run of the church and religion mingling into politics. If you think this only came up the last few years, maybe you haven't lived enough years. ^.^

I used the word Puritan in the spirit it's always intended, to label those who are the opposite of Hedonists, that evil bunch everyone likes to beat up on for various reason.

It's always said that Americans are so hard working due to the 'Puritan Work Ethihc' which is instilled into society. This also helps people throw daggers at gambling because you have the opportunity to make financial gain without 'working for it'. Also why Welfare and other programs of that nature are so hated in America.

Perhaps how the president is percieved is how some people outside the USA judge a country. But as I actually live here, I percieve it as I do by my day to day experiences from the last 37 years. While in decline, most americans consider themselves 'religious'.

I see that on Polls but not really in everyday life.

As to the years of Christian influenced legislation - thats the same story for all Western countries.

Just because the US might take longer to repeal a morally based law on one aspect of life than country X - doesn't make the US overly or overtly religious.

The Media who live here also seem to be swayed though which I find odd.

Still its hard to say that gambling is restricted because of some moral crusade - when gambling is so prevalent in the US already.

If I want to gamble I only have to go about 4 block from my house and buy a lottery ticket.

The nearest church is actually 2 blocks past that.

Gambling is all over the place, but if you want to look at why such laws as the UIGEA which places restrictions on financial transfers to online gambling sites and is the US government's strongest shat at online gaming to date, Puritanism and religion are the worst places to look. Not even close. The Bill was primarily introduces by that scumbag Bill Frist (I'm not biased or anything - he really is a scumbag). Look at Bill's records of campaign donations. For a moral upright Christian, he sure didn't have any problems accepting stacks and stacks of cash from brick and mortar casinos. He tacked the UIGEA onto the Port Security Act - a must pass bill that had no chance of failure, and he did it, literally, in the dead of night - like the scumbag he is - to make sure there was no chance for discussion of his corruptly influenced bill prior to the next day's vote on the Port Security bill.

Scumbag. At any rate, the blow to internet gaming was brought about not by puritan Christian interests, but by brick and mortar gaming interest who wanted to force people to come into their casinos and lose money there instead of at home.

BTW - internet poker took a huge blow after the UIGEA. There are very few poker rooms left to US players. PokerStars, Full Tilt, Bodog, Absolute and UB are the only big names, and Absolute and UB are not looking too healthy these days. Every other substantial poker room pulled out following the UIGEA.

Anyone that says that poker is purely a gambling game and who discounts the element of skill is welcome to sit down with me any time they want for whatever stakes they want - minimum $20/game - and learn otherwise. Open offer. If it's just gambling, you have a 50/50 chance, right? Right?

No arguments here.

I am very sure this is correct. I didn't want to delve too much into this subject matter here, but if you really want to get into the nuts and bolts of it, it's often greed and self serving motivations at the root of such things, but they are wrapped in the trappings of religion and morality, to get the 'moral majority' to go along with it and carry it into law. It's not how people act day to day, it's their perception of themselves that comes into play at the polls. I would posit that many gamble and play the lottery, and still go to church on Sundays and say gambling is the root of all evil. ^.^

Don't forget Bingo, and Casino Night in the Church Hall

Real World Currency is fake, too. All currency is essentially a place holder for the things you can buy with it.

Same. If its lawful and regulated then we know where we stand. Casinos, lotteries, racecourse, pokies, etc. If you gamble with a licensed operator then at least you know what you're going to get before you do. Empty pockets mostly, but o well at least you know that when you ask for a copy of the rules beforehand =)

As for the SL ban, I think that LL were caught in the same way that Party Poker was. Party Poker elected to tune their software to disallow US patrons. LL could have done the same, but probably didn't think the effort was worth it, given all the other things that needed to be done at the time.

I can imagine the uproar. lol !!! The asset server will remain borked and you will continue to be orbited into nullspace with your hair up your bum, while we rewrite the code so we can prevent US citizens from gambling in SL while allowing everyone else to do so.

You're interpretation of the UIGEA is incorrect. The UIGEA does define "unlawful internet gambling" as acts defined by other laws including local laws but the problem with that definition is that it is extremely open ended, vague and ambiguous as it ultimately relies on a mish mosh of disconnected state and federal case law. Most state laws do not and indeed cannot cover internet gambling regardless of what the text of such laws might state because federal law supercedes state law in most of these situations for reasons regarding jurisdiction. As a result, no one actually knows as a practical matter what constitutes unlawful internet gambling under the UIGEA. The US Attorney General's office was supposed to issue regulations clarifying this but the regulations they issued failed to do so and both the banking and online gaming industry have lobbied against the UIGEA for putting an unprecedented and unfair burden on their industries to self-regulate under the UIGEA.

No matter what side of the argument on gambling in general you stand on, the UIGEA is bad law. On an academic level it is a horribly drafted law. On a practical level it has not curtailed gambling online. As an online poker player I can tell you everyone I know is still playing. The only thing it has done is make the process a bit more cumbersome and placed an undue burden on the banking industry. The banking industry will have to spend a lot more money on compliance issues and in all likelihood those expenses will be passed on to their customer base.

Exactly, the game they have now has been copied from Sapphire Moon. The only difference is Plexore Lumiere does not sell her games at the casino she runs. LL has approved this type of gambling, however, it will be banned soon just like before so everyone that is purchasing these games are only making the creators rich and people will be stuck with the games sitting in their inventory soon. I purchased a full sim and bought 5 VGA Texas Holdem games before the gambling ban and now they can't be used (legally). LL will ride this out as long as they can and collect your tier money for all the new casinos opening up, then without any notice you will be shut down. I just wanted to caution those of you that are planning on purchasing these games, save your Linden Dollars !

A jira has begun to ask LL to clarify the ban in relation to the new systems being used. So, it may not be too long before LL has to clarify and support/deny the new type of gambling work around.

http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/general-sl-discussion/14888-please-vote-jira-issue-request.html#post324207

I'm with you on 100% of everything you said except this part - I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Several states have laws on the books that make internet gaming illegal, and there is no question that those laws are not preempted by federal law. But I might be misreading you. Can you clarify this?

I know a LOT of internet poker players and the UIGEA didn't slow them down one bit. They changed how they funded their accounts and that's about it. Man do I miss Netteller and the days of easy cashouts and big reload bonuses. And that extra $50.00 Party used to give me to entice me to come back every time I cashed out....

Sigh...The good old days.

Of course, I personally would never admit to continuing to play any sort of online poker for money...

Great !! We need to get the word out "inworld" before people waste their money

I was going to purchase these games but I'm glad I did not now. If there is a chance it wil be banned soon then no need to waste money on illegal games.Thanks for the heads up

Not likely, LL will most likely do what they do with about 99% of policy related JIRA issues and that is ignore that it even exists.

Apparently LL did something. They have banned zorkmids and Sapphire Moon matching game so you can no longer cash in your credits for L$. All of the people that purchased the game from Lamorna Proctor and her partner can store it in their inventory now.
Surprised???? notta. I would ask for a refund, they claimed their games were legal and advertised it everywhere but its highly unlikely they will give up a cent.

The mistake was trying to get (or getting) approval from members of the Governance Team. The G Team is not the General Counsel and I imagine once Marty Roberts & his legal minions got word of it, the G Team was told to get it shut down. Of course, what Linden decides is a gambling device is rather arbitrary. What's the difference between an illegal blackjack device and a supposedly legal Zyngo device, or is Zyngo being ignored until some government official in the real world realizes it's a Bingo gambling machine?

For some games ...

Zara and her staff somehow think the SL origin matters ...

Like the Feds would actually care where the game's origin was.

I have a question
If these games are not legal shouldn't the creators be banned for advertising them as legal? i don't understand why LindenLab allows this to go on and people buy the games from these shady characters should get a refund.

No it wasnt the same loophole used by Pachinko Houses. Pachniko Houses you play you win prizes and then you go across the street to sell those prizes ie cash in. And no they werent violating copyrights with zorkmids thats in the public domain from nethack

I think people are missing the real problems with what happen and thats understandable. It's not that Linden Labs found them to be against TOS or not, or even illegal or not. The real problem is first they been aware of these types of systems for at least 6 months. They allowed them to be developed and operate. They profited off these games through land, sim and money purchases. They had every opportunity to say hold on this might be against TOS but the opposite actually happened. Employees of Linden Labs actually gave go aheads directly or indirectly. Linden Labs was kept in the the loop of these systems. Six months is more than enough time to determine if this kind of system is legit. And if they are in a grey area they can just say hold on the system you are developing is against TOS or may have issues. But what they did do is wait, people purchased land, people purchase linden currency, people purchased sims, uploaded textures bought games. In short Linden Labs allowed it to continue and profited from it. Linden Labs needs to come forward and offer an explanation ASAP. There was a governance meeting which was a joke. Predictably their were no answers given. At one point after a one of the Socrates linden apparently lost connection after some well worded questions were placed. When another game maker asked some questions most werent answered and then they ran out of time.

!: Linden Labs needs to 100% compensate any purchases of land sims that were directly used for if that individual so chooses

2: An explanation is required

3: Game makers who had real world expenses that can be proven should be compensated if they so choose.

4: Development costs (ie texture and sound uploads) should be compensated to game makers who made games which Linden Labs conciously let exist and found then not against TOS.

5: Consumers need protection in Second Life. Linden Labs has TOS written in such a way where customers have discarded all consumer protection laws which. I might be silly but the laws of real life always overrule TOS. For instance for my cable service they cant write in they have a right to break into your house and take your cable box and it be legal.

6: The facade of Linden Currency has no value is a joke. It needs to be altered because anything you can buy or sell has value. Heck a empty soda can has value. There been a few millionaires to come out of Second Life profiting off something that has no value? That would hold up in court for 2 minutes at best. And if something with no value buys something else with no value and has issues because its gambling?

7. If Linden Labs does not respond a legal investigation needs to take place into Linden Labs activities by various consumer protection angencies and possibly the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Again the problem wasnt that they found it against TOS or have issues but they conciously allowed it and even actively participated in playing in some cases. And the problem is they profited off of it in the process which equates to either fraud or gross incompetance costling individuals and businesses untolds amount of money and time. Whether you agree with gambling, any of the loopholes or not this is clearly and obviously wrong.

The game creators were all working under good faith and consulted with linden labs on what they were doing. No they should be banned. Linden Lab employees need to be fired since they gave nods of ok directly or indirectly. Systems were tested by filing abuses against current systems and they survived Linden inspection which means Linden Lab employees trained to indentify problem in created games and other objects saw nothing wrong with those systems. No the game makers should be banned a number of lindens should be though. Also These game makers have offered exchanges. The shady characters are the lindens themselves