Gambling Returns to Second Life?

You've completely ignored the position of the major credit card companies / paypal etc. If they pull the plug, SL goes down the plughole and everyone loses.

Yeah that times a million!

Someone is going down for this.. hint... it won't be LL.

Of course they want gaming systems that can make profits, as long as they can write the code to slant the odds how they like, they will always want to sucker people.
Or the old "play poker against the houses 3 alts" trick was a great moiney spinner too.

First I can't imagine the G-Team not consulting with others in Linden Labs over something that would be hugely questioned like the various fictional credits and play skill games to win lindens systems. I can't imagine if a highly unusual and new situation arises they aren't going to just say yah sure why not. Also I do know there was legal consultation on the systems without getting into specifics. Also about Zyngo. That is not a SL original creation. It is a game 100% based on a game called Slingo which was created in 1996 and currently can be found on skill game websites you can play and win money there as well. If its not skilled enough, there is no current tests that I am aware of. But I do know if two players given the exact same game and one is more experienced and the other has just been given the understanding on how to play the game the more experienced player would get more points in most situations. If a game is deemed legal and ok by the real life laws no reason not to allow them. The majority of the games ever made have chance elements involved. A legal skill game just have to rely on a players knowledge and skill in that game as apposed to luck or chance. Of course games such as Poker and Blackjack can very easily argued to be skilled and they are. There are clear stratedgies and better players of some than others. Just they are found in casinos and are lumped in with games of 100% chances such as slots, roulette and craps. Nothing immoral about playing a game with a chance to win money in the least. Not wise to do so if your risking more than you can afford of course. Also games of skill with entry fees and money to win are legal in most if not all countries that I am aware of Including the united states. The Indy 500 has entry fees for its drivers and money to win as well not to mention chess and even video game compeititions. Only legit question I see with skill games is the instant win options. Personally I think at least multi player Poker should be allowed as a skill game and to a lesser extent Blackjack.

No I really didnt. Thats an issue sure. Something Linden labs are clearly aware of 6 months ago as well as today. That could been a reason assuming those loop holes had issues. I am unaware of any laws that were passed in the last month on those kind of loophole systems. IF there were then Linden Labs would be justified. But according to Aargle Zymurgy's only notice he posted "There apparently was some internal controversy at LL over Z$ (and other similar systems) and hence the reason for the termination of such systems, but not without some grace period." Your completely ignoreing the the problem Linden Labs actively let it go on with full knowledge let the new systems develop when they could said hold on at any second before people invested huge amounts of money into it.

Actually Linden Labs is completely responsibile they gave ok on the systems. A class action lawsuite against Linden Labs is almost a sure thing.

And we weren't going to have a class action by people against LL when they worked out were pumping money into "games of owner biased profit" rather than "games of chance"?
Simply, there's nothing stopping any person from setting up their own grid for gampling using OpenLife or similar so they do as they like.

Seems to me there's plenty of blame to go around.

The game makers were obviously consciously creating a gambling device, despite it being clearly against LL's stated policy. That's not operating in good faith, that's casting about for a loophole, and finding a flunky regulator too stupid to realize it ain't gonna work.

But of course LL supplied the flunky regulators. They've got a whole team of 'em, in fact. And by creating a climate of confusion about their own policy (oh, it's okay: it's 99.44% random but it's got *skill* involved) they generated the appearance of not really wanting to enforce their own policy at all--of being eager for some enterprising game maker to find that magic loophole so all the casinos could open again.

So, yeah, LL's lax and haphazard enforcement was an enabler. But really: could anybody attend a G-Team meeting without realizing that there was just nobody there with a clue?

Having a Linden employee here or there say something is OK to a few random people is not the same as Linden Lab saying it is to the grid as a whole. There was never any formal statement of approval on these types of systems.

and therein lies the problem. On any contentious issue (new gambling machines/games, bot-running etc), there is seldom an Official Policy Annoucement. It's always Random Linden or Just Happened To Bump Into Linden who gives the supposed green light.

It's the same as getting the maintenance guy to sign off on a big deal and claim his company have agreed to pay it.

Not LL hahaha. Hmm ok Harry Linden had a gambling account, Zara Linden gave Bicky Beans system an ok. Lindens inspected multiple loophole systems in place and were consulted during zorkmids development. To suggest the game makers where going down on this you have no idea what happened. They were aware of Sapphire Moon's existiance which all the skill game systems were patterned on and 100% conciously allowed it. At this point I really don't have any trust for the governance team or Linden Labs. In my mind if Linden Labs does not offer compensation for their gross incompetance costing people money and time it can only translate they engaged in fraud. Allowed these systems so they can gain money and later pull them before they got in trouble. SL has degenarated from what it once was. Personally I would love to see a good similar competitor come on the market. I am sure people will jump ship in no time flat.

No the governance team is described as the inworld enforcement arm of SL. Were not talking the lindens who go around repoing land. And if someone who was trained to identify items against TOS had any questions on something they are not sure of, multiple individuals infact. It is beyond comprehension they would all not consult with a superior and for 6 months even? You don't know what your talking about. I operate a game store I have talked to just about every game maker out there big or small. Also I am aware of linden activities in regards to many of these games and game systems. Also I know of at least one game system for sure that has been ran by the legal department if not two systems. The other problem is the TOS on wagering vs skill games is so vague and contradicts with other TOS its just silly. The game makers behind zorkmid are not just some random game makers they make the most well known games who have probably the best contacts with linden labs than anyone else in SL. Trust me Linden Labs as knew what was going on what was being developed. The makers of the zorkmid system were not being sneaky or stealthy about it. They were 100% upfront as much as humanly possible.

There needs to be an official channel to go through at this point to get games looked at and given an official ok.

Not sure what you mean by random people. But if you can't ask an employee and even multiple employees of Linden Labs if it violates TOS or could cause Linden Labs legal issues who can you ask. Were not talking about the land repo lindens here but lindens who are fully trained in indentifying problem items. If it was me and I was unsure of something that could have obvious legal consequences you wouldn't ask your superiors? I guess you think people who work for linden labs are really stupid apparently. Your operating under the assumption the only linden that was consulted was some random linden pruning some polygons somewhere. More than a few were 100% aware and for over 6 months. A few systems had tickets put against them I have heard that first hand. Lindens inspected and saw there was nothing wrong.

Also Linden labs won't say something is ok on the grid as a whole. Thats part of the problem Linden Labs wants the option to have zero responsibility. If you read the TOS carefully you will see they can take your linden currency at any time because they declare it has no value which is a complete obsurdity.

If you had any questions on what happened feel free to ask

This, I think, hits the nail squarely on the head: Nobody who actually had anything remotely like power of attorney for the corporation would ever be willing to go on-record about anything specific. They all were careful to maintain "plausible deniability" for when the whole thing went up in smoke. And to be extra careful, they were circumspect in any communications they had with G-Team, effectively keeping them in the dark about the very policies they were supposed to be enforcing. So the actual policy-makers and (especially) counsel *manufactured* cluelessness, and Zara et al went around the grid, spreading it far and wide.

So, I don't think it's fraud. It's willful organizational incompetence; incompetence by design.

Gee, did I call this, or what?

So they are FINALLY closing that stupid "game of skill" loophole?

Gonna be a lot of folks burned over this one. Same as usual, too little, too late.

Actually, to my knowledge, I have NEVER seen any "official OK" come from Linden Lab for ANY game. No one, and I mean NO ONE, except for bona fide legal counsel and/or executive management had any power to "OK" any kind of game. I kept hearing the game makers saying "oh we ran it by the G-Team, and they said it was legal", however, every time I or anyone else I know talked with them it was a non-committal "we can't approve any game or system; we can only deal with it from an AR standpoint", which is why people were suggesting ARing their own games, to see if LL would remove it or not.

The upshot is, I think there were a lot of starry-eyed game makers who took that non-committal posture as a blanket permit to make and sell what would eventually turn out to be illegal gambling games.

Of course, I have little sympathy in this case. It was SO OBVIOUSLY a loophole situation, and people who pin their fortunes on loopholes often see them go away in a spectacular fashion.

Ultimate, just like Qie says, it is really a result of a VERY amateurish management and governance organization. The same kinds of problems also are what has lead to the land extortionist/adfarmer situation. Totally clueless policymaking and enforcement from the get-go.

Lol to sue for gross incompetence of allowing people to make profit by run gambling operations using their home cooked equipment
I think I'll sue my boss for giving me a job..........
Maybe Shops can sue shopping centres for renting shops to them?

Sorry no idea what your trying to say.

I am not sure if it was fraud or gross incompetance but either is legally actionable just the latter lindens dont go to jail just get sued

I seen an ok just in the form of a snapshot of Zara Linden at Bicky beans. Game makers the smart ones anyway keep chat logs and have this information they dont proceed without one if they can help it. They have no interests in wasting weeks and months of work just to have it poofed. So for people to say they didnt check one way or another are just clueless. Anyone with half a brain will check before investing lost of money, and an enourmous amount of time. To think differently especially with high profile game makers is just pure stupidity. If they were trying to pull fastones they would just built them for speak easies.

You never seen one but they use to give them frequently up until two months ago. I also heard on some game systems they ran it buy legal teams as well. I heard this directly not rumor and hear say like everyone else in this chat is engaging in. But in reference to the G team they are the cops who supposeively know whats against TOS and whats not. And again either the G Team are all complete morons and didnt take it up stairs to inquire on something as obvious as a gambling loophole they had to. If not the whole team every single one needs to be fired.

99% of your comments is pure speculation I am going off facts. If linden labs did not engage in fraud they are guilty of actionable gross incompetance. If the bag carrier at yoru grocery store turns and smacks your car with a grocery cart the grocery store is held responsible for his bad judgement.

Just speculating about what happend is useless. They had more to work with than just a random linden.

The bicky bean sweepstakes is a loop hole also but its one that happens in real life. the skill game approach was just another new approach.

Personally I feel disgusted that people don't care that linden labs either through fraud or pure incompetance ripped off thousands upon thousands of dollars from people by 100% knowingly let this happen and gave people the go ahead. Officially or unofficially and the argument that they give official approval to any particular activity is an insane arguement. They dont give approval to prostittuion or orgies either.

If you hate gambling big woop. But of someone doesnt mind it in a leagal way thats fine. The game makers were assuming everything was completely legal and ok because of the feedback they received from linden labs. Plus the fact linden labs let it happen go on and had zero problem with it for 6 months. Sorry but anyone who says that anyone will invest $6000 US dollars and up weeks and months of effort with no research or forethought into it is not very bright. Trying not to be insulting here but that completely defies any logic and common sense. Especially for the game makers behind Zorkmid.

I will repeat yet again legal council was consulted on this.

Want to talk about whats illegal? defrauding customers is illegal. Committing internet based fraud is illegal that is what has happened. This isn't just the game makers but theypeople that bought the games bought the land that are the victims.

Honestly at this point I dont trust any of the lindens or the company linden labs until they make good on their mistakes. A good company you can judge best by how the address their mistakes. double talk not giving straight answers or even any announcements on the issue just adds to the issue did linden labs do this intentionally to defraud its customers or was it just incompetance.

K

LULZ at the idea of suing Linden Lab for not helping Residents break the law.


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Secondly, as if it mattered...

Ive read the transcripts and IM messages with the Lindens.

From what anyone has shown ...

They only approved the Z$ cash out "skill" game - Not the entire system involved.

Guns are legal too, but if you use them to rob a liquor store, the police get all uppity.

unless your a policeman? I think that that is the most valid point, Lindens should be accountable, being accountable is being transparent and the Lindens have said many times they 'want to be seen' as a transparent company, as much as I love SL, LL isn't transparent and mostly come off as deceptive.

Well .. no

in the US Guns are legal as long as you follow the rules ..

(and) ..

They still get uppity at Policeman who knock over liquor Stores

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LL transparent? hehehe yeah ok.

They did their Official Gambling Transparency already - that Blog post is all we get.


Besides it wasn't anyone that makes Policy that gave any of this a pass. It was just the Governance Team.

Are you also saying that if the bag carrier at the local grocery store doesn't wrestle you to the ground and slap cuffs on you because they saw you purchasing an allergy medication that you can use to make meth the entire grocery chain should be sued?

I can just see bubba in court....

But, your honor, wally world sells the medeecashon, so they must have been giving a green light to it. it's obveeously a loophole. they shuuda called the police. i demand they pays my lawyers fees and for all the elektronics i bot while i was there also.