Inclusive Communities and Representations of Violence against Women

Or "the guys". It's not just "guys" who use "guys" as a collective noun for both genders.

I mean, sure, Rock's arguments are ... sometimes odd ... but there's no point making up stuff like this about the guy.

Well if he wants to be the correct soul and tell folks what to do he should be more careful of appearing less than perfect to anyone's view.

He who is without sin and all that...

After all he insulted many with his use of the term, much like certain role play upsets him... that doesn't involve real people being tormented or victimized.

I had already stated I was not attempting to "prove" or "not prove" ANYTHING else with the comparison of per capital crime incidence in Japan to the U.S. other than to refute the argument made that:

"X causes Y, so more availability of X means a greater occurrence of Y."

Where:

X = pornography
Y = rape and murder

The statistics show an example where there is more availability of X yet much less Y. Ergo, the argument as stated above does not hold true.

You have questioned the use of per capita values. Please suggest, then, how we are to compare numbers between areas with different populations. Is an island with a population of 10,000 that has 1 murder per year to be deemed as safe a place to live as an island with a population of 100 that has 1 murder per year, since they both only had one? Or is a 1/10,000 chance of being a victim better than a 1/100 chance?

Your long post about Japan, though, seems to suggest that you realize the causes of crime in any society are complex and spring from many sources. That's interesting, because I believe this to be the case, too, and to me it only further reinforces the silliness of any argument that attempts to pin the blame for violent crime on any one thing.

/me places a fresh organic chicken pie on the floor, ferret eats heartily and goes to sleep. This way, ferret will not be around saying things that might make sense.

Wow... for someone who puts so much emphasis on the Community Standards, you might want to reread #4:



For all of your talk of wanting to right the worlds intolerance against women, throughout this thread you seem to have missed #1 in Community Standards as well.





No, your posts throughout this thread has sought to belittle and make anyone who disagreed with you as suspect as to their actual gender. It creates an environment where people then feel uncomfortable posting, or feel they have to reveal identifying RL information which they would not have otherwise. Perhaps anoother part you might have missed:



It is just as harassing and alarming to have the very part of who you are (your RL gender) possibly questioned simply because of your opinion.





Irrelevant. What you do on your own land based on your own experiences is something you'll have to argue to G-Team when they come knocking on your door with a warning for disclosure.



Again, irrelevant. This is intolerance. How many people haven't said something because they didn't want to address their personal gender issues. You have created an environment that refocuses away from the issue of censorship into intimidating people to not feel they should say something. Or, that everyone who disagrees with you is a guy.



Even jokingly you just add fuel to a hostile environment where someone might feel strongly about their opinion but not want to go up against the gender inquisition. Nobody should have to justify that part of themselves in order to voice their opinions.



I am sorry you felt you had so many men trying to scam you. What comes around goes around. They likely moved on to somewhere that suited them better. I do hope the people in Anubis know better than to pass around any list of female avis who are men.

Just because that was your experience does not mean it happens everywhere. It also doesn't mean all females are men. Even if some huge number are, SO WHAT? Besides, who could blame them? The clothes are better.



Again, your experience is not everyone's experience. What do you need to know about me before you will believe what I say? Nothing. What I have disclosed of myself in this thread has been deeply personal and of my own choosing. Believe it or don't. Life does not stop there.



Intolerance, disclosure and harassment all in one paragraph. Above all. 100% irrelevant to the conversation.

Where I work can transfer me (permanently or temporarily) any day, anytime, any place based solely on my gender. It has nothing specific to do with me as a person. My male co-workers can also be transferred based solely on their gender.

I once randomly worked a shift with a guy from Iraq. I asked him why women wear burkas. He said, like anything, it can be taken to an extreme but that it is so the woman is valued based on her abilities not her looks.

There are enough gender issues in RL. If I wanted to subject myself to that, I would work more than I already do. SL is my outlet away from such things.

The anonymity allowed in SL is like a virtual burka. Value people for what they say and do, don't base it on what is underneath. Should you be lucky enough to know someone closely enough that they want to share their RL info with you, cherish that.

Well the thing is... he uses that argument to get something removed that disturbs him... if he admits it's only a small factor he loses ground on getting it removed.

It's why he doesn't want statistics that show the difference based on population density... much like many against guns. They hold up single states of the EU or the like compared to the whole of the US, don't realize that folks would point out that one state fits in Texas with less population... and annoying things like suicides are counted in the US but not their held up state...

I am totally in favor of allowing Nazis, KKK members, and the like the same freedom of speech guaranteed to everyone in the U.S. Constitution. I think the best way for intelligent people to realize just how stupid these groups are is for them to be allowed to talk as much as they want. Call it the "Give a man enough rope..." theory. More is gained by allowing such groups to talk themselves into a hole than is gained by silencing them and making their message a tempting forbidden fruit.

That said, I am not LL, a corporation trying to make its product available in parts of the world where the speech laws are not as generous as in the U.S. Nazi symbols are speech are banned in SL because they are banned in many countries in Europe, and if LL were not to restrict them, those nations would either not permit LL to make its product available there or would be engaged in costly litigation with LL.

In short, large part of the decision on which behaviors and speech get banned and which are permitted comes down to a matter of what's good business for the company. The moral views of the owners may certainly play in there, too, but when guessing the motivations for corporate decision-making, the almighty dollar is usually the best place to start.

I dislike them, Nazi, a lot, but yeh, but I don't mind my right to tell them to go get fucked at all.

So far the law has upheld their right.

For an interesting read:

http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/strwhe.html

and:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skokie,_Illinois

In 1977 and 1978, Illinois Nazis of the National Socialist Party of America (derived from the American Nazi Party) attempted to demonstrate their political existence with a march in Skokie — at the City's north western border — far from their south side headquarters. Originally, the NSPA had planned a political rally in Marquette Park, in the south side of Chicago, to which the City reacted against, first, by requiring the NSPA post an onerous public-safety-insurance bond, then, by banning all political demonstrations in Marquette Park.

Seeking another free-speech political venue, the NSPA chose to march on Skokie. Given the many Holocaust survivors living in Skokie, the Village's Government thought the Nazi march would be politically provocative and socially disruptive, and refused the NSPA its permission. In the event, the American Civil Liberties Union interceded in behalf of the NSPA, in the case of the National Socialist Party of America v. Village of Skokie, wherein an Illinois appeals court raised the injunction issued by a Cook County Circuit Court judge, ruling that the presence of the swastika, the Nazi emblem, would constitute deliberate provocation of the people of Skokie. However, the Court also ruled that Skokie's attorneys had failed to prove that either the Nazi uniform or their printed materials, which it was alleged that the Nazis intended to distribute, would incite violence. [5]

Moreover, because Chicago subsequently lifted its Marquette Park political demonstration ban, the NSPA ultimately held its rally in Chicago. In 1981, the attempted Illinois Nazi march on Skokie was dramatised in the television movie, Skokie.

Because I like to know what women think about this issue, not what a man, posing as a woman, thinks about this issue.

In a debate about extreme violence to women there will be a male perspective and a female perspective. When a man, posing as a woman, says "As a woman I can tell you...." it skews the debate somewhat. I am left thinking, is that 'really' what women think?

As for Disclosure, if someone starts a post with 'As a woman....' and you quote their message, in a reply, is it Disclosure, when they may not have stated their gender on the Front page of their profile? Common sense says it is not, as they have stated their gender themselves in an open forum. Similarly, when someone posts as a guy in one thread, then as a female in another, pointing that out is also not Disclosure, they did that themselves. And talking of Disclosure, have you any idea of the numbers of avatars who have visited my sim, and teleported to my home this last few days? I had a very pleasant conversation with one, from this thread, while I was there, but the list of vistors spat out from my security door was staggering. Wonder what they were looking for? Most I did not know, but there were four from this thread, and they know who they are.

Rock

oh this is priceless...

Rock, you are not a female...

So why is it that you can speak for women?

For a change, I agree almost entirely with your post. My only caveat is in the free speech, which I also agree should apply to all, but with the exception of speech that incites to violence.

In one of my earlier posts I mentioned about the effect that press exposure of some of the more extreme things that go in SL could have, now that ageplay is banned (not gone, but harder for the press to find), and the damaging effect on SL such stories could have, given the markets it needs to serve, and the laws in those countries that ban the graphic depictions of violence to women (both real and computer generated). How many people felt so strongly about the rights of freedom of speech and expression left SL in protest when the ban on ageplay came into force? Certainly not any of the posters in this thread. If depictions of extreme violence towards women was also banned, I wonder how many would leave in protest. I strongly suspect the blip in the SL concurrency figures would not be measureable.

As for my own personal opinion, I think all this debate will be moot anyway, as I have stated in my blog, and in various posts in the forums, and I still say it now, I believe the Adult Continent will eventually be hived off into a separate Adult Grid, possibly swapping places with the Teen Grid.

Rock

Link please?

Or do you just like to be a sexist little control freak with problems with women that don't fit your idea of what they should be?

Because his narcissistic blusters outweighs logic?

this is so true..

i find myself at times when i have nothing else to do or just want a break tping to an Alley sim..right away i cam up to the roof tops and look for something to sit on which most have something up there ..then stand and click to the edge of a roof and just sit and listen to the general chat and talk to the people that IM me..

Most IM's right away ask me what i am doing up there..i just say..I'm taking a break from my projects and relaxing talking to people..
I've never really had someone try to get powerful with me in those places..they always ask why i am there more than anything..

they will ask if i would like to play or rp or whatever..but if i say something like..i just want to relax and chat..they will more times than not just sit there and talk with me or go off looking for someone that wants to play..

it's so much different than what i thought these places were like when i first went into one back in 2007..

it was actually scary at first and took some time to get up the nerve to click the tp to one..
i remember tping finally then just standing there waiting making sure nobody was there..
all i saw was a room with a dumpster and some posters and a few warning sign..then took a step and the note cards came telling what was there and the rules and landmark..

it gave me an excuse to stand there a little longer if anyone IM'd me..oh i'm just reading the cards about this place..
i did that a few times untill someone said..wow you know you don't have to read those everytime you come here don't you? lol

anyways i decided after a few times to finally walk through this wall that everyone was going through that you could not see unless you saw someone go though it..

it looked like the inner city and reminded me of where my cousins live in chicago..so i walked though and really nobody said anything to me at first..
so i kept looking around..
i walked up these stairs..mind you the whole time i had major butterflies and ready to port out of there at the first sign of someone scary..

so i look behind me and there is this guy just at the door to this building..right away i said to myself..oh crap..so i stood there for a minute..then walked up the stairs and it went into this room..and there was a bed there and this guy came in right behind me..
i freaked out and just tped home..
he im'd me asking why i tp'd..
i said you scare me and i was just looking around and i keep seeing you behind me and why were you following me !!1

he replied that he was really sorry that he didn't mean to scare me..that he thought my avatar didn't look like it belonged in such a place like that and i drew his curiosity and he was going to ask why i was there..we started to talk and finally added each other and are still friends..

i can't speak for anyone else..but it took a lot of time and thinking and building up to go into that sim and finally walk through it..
once i started talking to people i somehow just became more relaxed in those places..

i have been treated worse by bling boys in clubs and people in info hubs while i am there trying to help new people and just shopping ect..
i always loved going to my cousins house up north..the inner city is like a whole other world..nobody ever hurt me there..
it was always the places that i thought were safe..and always someone that took advantage of trust but really after other things..

i've had boys in highschool that had dated me and slept with me because i was the only Apache in school..soon as they did it was over..after a few times i just stopped dating people in school..

i never went to parties because i found out one was a trick by some boys to get me there alone..thanks to one of them realizing what was about to happen and calling on my cell me before i had gotten there..
sons of local police were there even a preachers son..something like that doesn't make the statistics..

some of the teachers were just as slimy..
other things i won't go into because it's not going to help one way or the other..

all i will say is this..adults don't all of a sudden see something like a rape video or an animation or an avatar and all of a sudden become someone that goes out and commits this kind of thing..
it's something already in them that flips a trigger that is already there..
it could be the eyes or legs or that someone has an innocence about them..something they want or want to take away..
rape is not about hate it is about overpowering and controlling someone to the point that the attacker/attackers feel they have your full undivided attention and nothing else in the world matters but them..that your very soul belongs to them..they they know they are going to change your life forever..that they took something from you and you can never get it back..


i hate with a passion that it exists in the real world and that someone else is going to have to live through it.. i also hate seeing it's subject used for other agendas in the name of it b ..i hate that we live in a word that when someone becomes a victim that people feel it is in their best interest to keep them a victim..
especially when they can be so much stronger than before they were attacked..
i hate that now we have wiki and places that people can use links to become experts in a flash on any subject instead of using what they really know about it..

this is nothing but an Epeen contest now..

i find it funny how a men feel they know more about violence against women than the women that have lived through it themselves..
even to go as far as to say that they are fake...
how is it being real if people have to run off and get links to power play a thread?
someone wants to post up numbers..lets see the numbers that have to do with SL creating rapists or violent people..
i don't care what the price of tea is in china..

I think he means a post you made in another thread in which you refer to someone as a 'buddy'. Although he found definitions for his use of 'guy' at a dictionary site to support his claim that his use of that was not sexist, I imagine the same site's definition of 'buddy' is irrelevant.

There are several rules in the tos community standards, and the forum rules about modifying someone else words in quotes or in logs.

Tampering with the words someone else said to suit your own agenda is clearly a violation!!

We will let the Forum moderators deal with you.

I personally have no wish to discuss anything further with you. When someone can not make comments without risk of someone else appearing to quote them but editing what they said then forum discussions are not worth having. Our words here are the most important thing we have and you ruined that when you mislead others by taking a quote from another poster and changing their words.

Wow.

This thread is really stunning.

Post 1133 in this thread.

Kind regards

Rock

I repeat, which rule exactly? If there are several you should have no problem in quoting me one.

Rock

How about common etiquette to start? Are you actually defending the right to edit others words when quoting them?

Inconceivable.

When the editing is clearly marked, yes.

Rock

That is interesting.

Recently, a close friend - my best male friend, left SL - without telling anyone, just deleted all his alts and primary and left. I found myself telling a friend that this person was my 'best buddy'.

Also, before he died, my vet (a woman) had described my cat as a "buddy cat", because, unlike the regular cat, he would follow you from room to room, basically stay with you, and be liked a buddy...

I never placed the word "buddy" in the realm of a male only word.

I've SEEN women who say "DUDE"...so what does that mean..

*shrug*

For further discussion on issues of what a 'real' woman wouldn't say or do in SL: check out this thread: /327/81/322448/1.html#post2440773
(shameless plug - but relevant!)

Etiquette and decorum are generally absent on most forums and rarely used. The most one can do is maintain control over themselves (as much as possible) and hope others do the same.

i say "dude" all the time. just a casual way to say "hi, acquaintance i like"