Stop age discrimination NOW! (PLEASE READ)

Firstly, I should say hello to everyone as this is my first post on this forum, though I have been on SecondLife for exactly an year now, and mostly know everything there is to know about SL.

This topic is a topic over a very delicate subject, that I wanted to talk about for a long time, but I didn't because I wasn't sure if Linden could delete/suspend my account for talking about this, as they have recently gotten everyone to fear them. I will apologise from now if I will be rude against Linden here, as I am *extremely* revolted against some things that they did and keep doing, that I believe shall not remain in silence any more, which I will discuss in a second. I would be really grateful if you could take your time to read this, especially Linden, and decide to join me and act against what is happening on SL right now. Be warned that this post is extremely long, due to the fact I wanted to mention everything very clearly, so I apologise for that too.

Also, I would like to clearly mention that *I am over 18 years old* myself. I have been verified 2 times now, my last verification being finished just a short while ago. I would like to ask Linden to note that my age was verified somewhere until this is over, and in case they feel like getting suspicious on me, just read that note. It will save us both from wasting some time and me from fearing that someone could brake into my house, which I will have to go with from now one after sending my identity card to many Lindens.

So, I shall begin; This topic is about what Linden Labs has been recently doing against so called "underages", who made the decision to join the main grid and hang with everybody else there. As many of you know, many residents there, who have never done anything wrong to anyone, against anyone, or upset anyone, have been banned by Linden for nothing else other then their "real life identity". At first, I have just watched this saddened, but recently I have decided that it is something that shall be spoken against and that I can no longer hold back to speak clearly to everyone, because it cannot be any more tolerated.

I shall begin with the most disturbing thing of it all. And that is the way the "underages" are discriminated and mockered for "what they are" inside the services offered by Linden Labs. Banning them from the SL for being "too young" is exactly like throwing a black out of a restaurant for being a "nigger". I have to ask this clearly and out loud here - How does Linden Labs believe they have the right to treat anybody in such a way? Does Linden have any kind of idea how offending and assaulting what they are doing is? Do they realize that these people, even if they are under 18, have a sense of moral, respect, and are able to notice they are directly offended and slapped over the face? I can guarantee you that they do, and even if I am over the age of 18 myself, I take as much offense as everyone to this, and I will be posting my own example later on in this post. I would have much more to say on this part, but everything will slowly be discussed with time. Right now, I am simply making my *first* voice heard.

The second offense, alongside the discrimination and mockery itsself, is the fact that Linden Labs intrude into families, personal lifes, and peoples beliefs, which they have never met, and have absolutely *no right* to judge, offend, or take any decisions for. How does Linden dare to judge someone who they have never met, and tell them if they are "big enough to see porn" or not? That is something that the the person decides with their family, not with some strangers like Linden Labs, and if their family doesn't know, it's still that family's business and private life. Linden has absolutely *no rights* to ask us for information about our real life, nor assault us for what we are. We do not have absolutely any obligation to have to tell them what gender, skin color, age, religion, or anything else we are. By forcing us to do so, Linden Labs is intruding into our personal lifes, and by banning accordingly to this information, they are violently intruding and assaulting into our personal lifes, which cannot be tolerated, even by a minor.

I am completely shocked how far this was able to go, as shocked as I am that nobody has said these things before me now. Also, I would like to make it *very clear* that I am not in any way saying "Introduce minors to porn in Second Life". I do not care who joins SL and what they do there, I only care that they are left alone, and that we are all left alone. I am simply saying that Linden has NO RIGHT to judge who can see adult content or not, and have no right to forcefully ban anyone from SL unless they do something wrong to someone. Minors have the right to decide for theirselves if they can enter the Main/Mature grid or not, as long as they have been warned of what is there. The teen grid is for those who *willingly* want to stay away from such content. But those who don't, have their own rights too. I can actually judge Linden for not posting enough warnings about the content of SL at registration, and not informing new residents that the main grid contains explicit content enough. But once the person has been warned, Linden has no right to decide who can come there and who cannot, because that is our choice, even if we are younger. Its not like they would be turning the gas on or sticking their fingers in the power outlet.

Probably, some ask why I am so revolted by this. Firstly, because I do not tolerate discrimination. And no matter what anyone says, this is discrimination and not a "protection". It is actually the opposite of a protection, it is an assault, and I have decided to post why too; I have been on the Main grid many months before I was 18 (don't bother trying to hunt me now, I am 18 and I have already proved it when I was asked to send you my identity card to get transferred). I have had a great time there, and have never harmed anyone, nor was I ever harmed myself, even if yes, I saw a lot porn there. Still, every time I logged in, I had to feel like a hacker, and like an "outlaw", and every time I was clicking the "Log in" button, I was afraid I could find out my account was deleted. Why? What did I ever do wrong to anyone then? I just joined there to play with everyone else! Why all this, just because of a stupid damn stereotype and some isolated stories of minors that have been feeling a little depressed after seeing adult content. I understand that many want children safe, but believe me that assaulting them in the way Linden does is *far* worse then letting them seeing some 3D porn. And no, I am not lying or trying to make a metaphoric example, I am actually saying the truth, as someone who was an underage there, and was assaulted by linden like this. I am not going so start a drama here, as I don't know anyone on this forum nor is it my kind to do such a thing in public, but I want to make it clear how bad what linden does is, and that they are actually not protecting children, but stressing them, and scaring them they may get removed from their 3d world, and their friends there, just for a stupid stereotype against children and porn.

I am here right now, determined to convince Linden Labs to leave underages alone to join the main grid at their *own will*. I know how many of you are determined to go further with this and believe this is right, but it is not. And I hope that my example and what I have pointed out has proved that this is something very wrong. I know that they have been constrained by the government also, but still I cannot close my eyes to this, and know friends of mine I who I don't even know their age is (we don't worry about things like these in reality) could get banned for absolutely no reason, and that I can't bring other friends of mine to hang with safely. As long as SL is clearly warned against adult content, Linden doesn't hold any responsibility against what the residents do.

Anyway, I am not going to just post this and leave, waiting for someone to say "cool, I agree!". I am determined to start a powerful campaign and protest against this, and will accept anyone who wants to fight against this. I have started with a group (which I will post about here after I read the first replies on this), followed by banners, and will firstly make my voice heard well. We want SL to be discrimination and force free, and that includes age discrimination. As a resident that appreciates the wonderful possibilities of sl (many things that the main grid has and the teen one doesn't, which was deserted last I've been there), I am determined to fight and insist with this until the end, even if I have to cause a new storm all over SL. I am not asking for more then simply letting residents, whatever their age is, to decide for theirselves if to join or not, without being judged by Linden. If they are warned against the content there, and that it can be harmful for them, they have the right to decide for theirselves what to do. The worst that can happen is that they see some 3d porn, which they more likely then 99% are already used to, and if not they'll simply just ignore it and watch it like anything else. They won't die or go insane because of that. It's not like somebody rapes them irl or anything, it is just 3D, some sound and images. They can exit/teleport anytime they want to. They have rights like everyone else, and I will stand for that!

I don't know if I can do this here (despire Linden, I actually think what I have the right to do before doing it), but I would like to propose a Linden meeting on this topic to Linden Labs, where this can be discussed with anyone else who agrees. If Linden aren't the monsters they show every day they are, and can understand and supporrt the community, and can simply care for their residents and truly respect them, this shall be discusses with them, and we shall get to an understanding with them. If not, I will simply go on with the protest, in and out of SL, untill the age verification system is destroyed (or stopped from being built), and Linden will stop banning minors just for their age in real life.

That is all that we ask! I deeply hope that this post has been read and understood, especially by Linden, who hopefully opened their eyes more now. If anyone wants to participate in the protest (which I will make sure to start soon), message me in SL, or email me at the address [email]sonichedgehog_hyperblast00@yahoo.com[/email] . I apologise again for the length of this post, and to everyone who I have been rude to, though I hope Linden felt what I did when I was bumped there to have understood it, and that they will listen to this post and what we ask. Thank you for reading this, and I hope that whatever happens, SL will be free again, and *everyone* will have equal rights and receive equal respect from now one. I'll see you all in-world.

[EDIT] For those who want to join the protest, the group name in SL is called "Against underage policies".

Much as it may stink, LL owns SL and can decide any way they see fit to administer it. And comparing this to any Real World Social Injustice is offensive and ridiculous.

When it becomes illegal to ban juveniles from places that offer adult content, then you'll have a case.

Thank you for your first replies. I am simply saying that they have no rights to intrude into our personal lifes and into who we are behind the computer. Also, this is not a Real Life place, and SL is a free service, which could very well run like many others without this. I believe I have the right to be offended if I am agressed for who I am behind the computer.

Sure, Linden has the right to do what they want, like I may have the right to call anyone here bad names and probably do bad things to them in the limit that I can, but that doesn't mean that they would have to stand for it too and take it. Some may not take offense to that, but others do, and I know that I am certainly not the only one.

I am so, so staying out of dis one. Far, far away.

Mari

One more thing. Lindens don't read this Forum.

Take me wit you!!!!!!

1. It is illegal for a minor (or as you put it "underages" to view adult themed content - i.e. p0rn.

2. SL contains adult content in the main grid.


Next are you going to rail about "underagers" being denied the ability to vote?
Next thing you know, Elmo is president.

Ahhh no. SL is a *paid* service, just with the costs of the actual paying customers having to bear the burden of those that elect not to pay. There's quite a few people that are unfortunately spending the equivalent of a car payment (or more) on SL that would be willing to attest to the fact that it's not a free service.


Oh and by the way, calling age restrictions equivalent to race discrimination is quite a slap in the face for ethnic minorities. Perhaps you should do a little researching on the concept of 'discrimination' as it applies from a legal standpoint. In many cases, the circumstance that one is being discriminated against is one that a person is *born into*...meaning that it is how they started out in life, and will be part of that group permanently. Little things like ancestry, race, etc.

One might be born underaged, but if they wait long enough, they grow out of it. That's a significant difference from being discriminated against for being black. The age limitations in SL are based on strongly established US laws, and there is very little room for creative interpretation. There are things in this world that are not god-given rights, but are privileges that can only be achieved by putting in the time and patience that is required.

You're not being tossed out because you're underaged, you're being tossed out because (based on US/etc law) you've not earned the privilege of seeing adult content. Dont like how the law defines adulthood? Then that's your starting point - have the law changed.


- Etain

When it becomes a crime for someone to only *look* at a content, the world is close to a ending or something, as that is clearly over the line. And in case somebody didn't know, it was once legal to keep black people as slaves, and it was actually illegal to *not* discriminate them back then, and I don't believe that that made it right. But anyway, this would take us way off topic, and I want to stay on this and just ask who is with me on this one. Apparently, many go over their common idea, but I will probably have some support too from those who are open minded and understand what I say, and feel the way I do.

Also, in case I want Linden to read this, is it ok to make another topic with a link to this one in a suitable place where linden reads? I'm new to this forum and not sure if that can be viewed as spam or not.

Agree with above!!


Maybe not the best example - Elmo might be better.

There is no such place.

Hmmm what?

Would you stop comparing racial discrimination to being shut out of a Computer Game.Please.

The LAW says how old you have to be too look at certain material, not LL. And how are they intruding into families private lives?

LL has the right to exclude minors from adult content. This is acting according to the spirit of many laws that LL is subject to in the US.

Anyway, since this forum seems to be very active, I cannot reply to every single post made. Don't get me wrong, I'm not going against anyone who has different views then me, but I am simply sticking to what this protest is about. Everyone has different views, and takes offense to different things. It is important to accept others who *do* take offense to some things though.

And yes, I am calling this discrimination. Discrimination means (at least in my view) being mistreated for what you are. And being an underage is what you can be. But like I said, I'm not going further into that.

For those who want to join, the group name is "Against underage policies". I will be updating my first post to write that too. Otherwise, I wish you luck with your beliefs and hope that sooner or later you'll become more accepting.

The world's been close to ending for many a century then.

It's not the act of 'looking' that's the crime, it's the exposure of concepts and ideas that is not appropriate for a child to see that is the basis of the law. Much of adult material is of a nature that can have long term damaging effects on psyche of an individual who is not yet emotionally developed enough to handle those concepts. In fact, many would say that your reaction of calling it 'the end of the world' only reinforces that theory, as it's clear you dont have an appropriate understanding of the seriousness of the issue.



You're quite right on that one. But that's discrimination against blacks, which few will say is right. Too bad that your point has no bearing on age 'discrimination'. Which it isn't a form of discrimination.


- Etain

If you want another RL example, take video stores. Where I live, you are not allowed to enter a video store if you're under 18. It doesn't matter that they have the p0rn in a separate room anyway and you wouldn't even see anything R-rated in the main room (at least in most video stores; I worked in one during my last year at school), but the law just says NO. I could protest all I want.

The *right* to live a life free of violence, verbal abuse, and other sickening forms of discriminations based upon a person's ethnicity, religious belief or sexual orientation is/should be a basic right of all humans.

The *right* to access a virtual on-line world which contains adult material does not compare to basic human civil rights. To place them both in the same category is quite offensive.

As others have stated, the later issue pertains to the legality of allowing minors access to adult material.

~Ari

And most bars in the US will not allow anyone under age to even enter. Entry into the bar does not automatically mean that you will be consuming alcohol, but the bar owners are still allowed to say NO.

That is NOT age discrimination and neither is what you are talking about.

I really don't understand how you can call it discrimination. There is good reasons why people need to be a certain age to do certain things. are restricted to over 18's. Smoking, alcohol, porn, nightclubs etc, do u think the owners of these companies should be called discriminatory as well? Do you think that a 14 year old should be able to drive a car, because he can do it REALLY WELL, and if he's not allowed it's discrimination? It's not being discriminative, as someone else said, you eventually grow up and are allowed to do these things as well. Do you think that not allowing children to rent out porn is being discriminative? I don't think you have a leg to stand on, and the accusations you make are totally unfounded. If underaged people want to experience Second Life, then they have the Teen Grid to play on, then when they are 18 and hopefully have a bit more sense and smarts about them, they can hopefully deal with some of the 'Mature' content that they will face when they hit the main grid(I say this lightly, as there are many people who are over 18 but act extremely immaturely, griefers etc.). Certain things are available to people only over a certain age, and for good reason.

Sorry if my post seems a bit disjointed, I had a BIG weekend .

Am I the only one who sees that as "Cover they eyes so they don't see it and know!" and further sees it as a act of dictatorship and acting like a god without any rights to? I mean minors could as well be kept in a cage or something.

And once again, I am NOT saying "show it to them", I am simply saying "let them come if they *willingly want to*". If they want to be protected, they don't come there or ask to be, that wouldn't be the problem. If they join once they have been warned, its because they believe they can and decide they are ok with it, and have to be respected. Those who both don't have a problem with it and don't agree with the idea have no fault.

But honestly, I'm being taken way too far in this. I'll be handling the banners and the group is open enrollment. Who wants to join and help does so. Who doesn't, doesn't. Thats all I have to say.

If you want to stop Age Discrimination start with Kidegarden - I hear you have to be age 5 to get in.



Anyways I dont think we should beat up the OP too much I think she set herself up unknowingly.


I think basically she is one of those who Wants SL to be all ages. That does fit into LL's eventual plan. So technically shes going to "win" this discussion. Some day.

Content will always be age limited however. That part shell never convince people to concede.

Nor should they ever.

--------------------------

So when SL becomes all ages, the result will be a mostly PG world. With various areas only those verified adult can access.

Then all these discrimation fears will be over. So to the OP all you have to do is Wait for it to be implimented.

Of course if the OP is arguing that kids should be able to cyber and have online relationships with adults and freely access hardcore porn, Then shes totally loopy and deserves the resulting flames.

This a case of a self entitled, Generation Whatever whiner, nothing more. Acceptance is great. Start with accepting that we are governed by Laws. You don't like the law, you strive to have it changed. until then, you follow the law, or suffer the consequences. No one is entitled to anything from LL as far as Second Life goes. Grow up.

LL is not segregating them because we don't want them around. LL is segregating them to protect themselves legally. Whereas many of the more interesting discussions on this subject consist of people taking issue with specific LL policy and implementation, you seem to be taking issue with these underlying real life laws in general, with respect to minors. Am I correct in this interpretation?