Blue Mars beta

I have a lot of questions about how viable Blue Mars is going to be, and I admit that I cannot at this point say with confidence that I think it's all going to work out, but I do see a tremendous amount of potential. I don't want to miss out on that if it does work, but then again I tend to be an early adopter in many things

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I agree almost 100% with Argent here about what the concerns are and why they are concerns.

I just disagree about text based MUDs and VWs *shudders* give me reasonable graphics any day. Whilst it is a nice bonus, I don't need dynamics shadows, windlight, or any advance game engine graphics. SL graphics circa 2007 when I joined were just fine. Make it too real and it gets too creepy, i like my VW to have some level of unreality and fantasy about it.

I agree and that is why I have also signed up as an early adopter in the development program. It does not stop me talking about my concerns though, nor do I believe it should mean that.

But Linden Labs doesn't require you to be a business owner to get treated like a customer of *Linden Labs*.

Would you expect this to be acceptable attire?

Yupyup, agreed.

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We are all indeed different and approach things differently. I have no problems with rampant enthusiasm as long as my cautious questioning about concerns can also be accommodated.

I did?

When did I say that? I didn't even know about SL until 2005! If I'd found out about it earlier, I might have joined earlier, but the only 3d environments I knew about back then were either experimental toys or locked down chat systems designed around a tight control over content creation.

I really don't consider There.com and ActiveWorlds to BE virtual worlds in the same sense that SL is because of that. They're a different market, targeting a different user base.

Even if the day is a day in November, 1981?

Back when we started a typical personal computer had fewer resources than a single LSL script. Using LSO, not Mono.

Here



I wasn't suggesting you knew about SL before 2005, just agreeing with you, that other worlds continue, for a multitude of reasons. Reasons which often differ from others.

Joo is auld Sure back then when computer ran on oil and stuff, text was the only real option. I'll take basic 3D graphics over text any time. :nods:

Other 3d environments. Not other "worlds". Worlds have an internal consistency and equality that There and AW and, I fear, BM lack.

Ummm... Yeah... The Blue Mars environment builder totally rocks The control you get over things such as the weather is unparalleled in SL.

And although the regions are not contiguous, it would take you three hours to cross a single region 'on foot' if you took the shortest distance.

/me goes back to playing around with the editor...


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Ok now that's just funny. Linden Lab as the sole provider of "internal consistency and equality". The "Ha!" that issued from me put my poor cat on the ceiling.

Honestly, that's got to be some killer kool-aid you're drinkin' there my little ferret friend.

What the hell does "internal consistency and equality" even mean? Is that like trying to provide a "predictable experience" for "...Your Imagination" ?

I just don't get all the negativity. You all sound like the TSO forums in 2003 when they started talking about this other online community where you could actually place furniture in the corners of your house and and zoom in really close to your sim (sic) but you didn't have to green and after a while there really wasnt much to do and if you didn't have dsl you were screwed.

I can see be inquisitive and cautious about investing time or resources in a new project, but the sort of people who do want to invest are the same sort of people who built up THIS platform for you. To imagine those sorts of people would not be interested in putting their time or talents to a new project/world/platform/blah blah blah after the shiny new glitter of this platform wears thin seems ... hard for me personally to imagine. I saw the World Builders come in and build this world from nothing. I know how many of them have gotten bored/pissed off/screwed over with Linden Lab. Surely those people are looking for an alternative... ANY alternative in some cases. Because they've already had enough of the Linden flavored kool-aid. They'll still drink it, especially if its still going to make them money to do so. But man, there's got to be a better flavor then this.

You're not a pioneer, Argent. You want it all worked out before you'll even step foot there. There's nothing wrong with that, but there are those who like making the first marks, take the first chances, maybe being the first to find that "there be dragons" or to fall over the edge. Those folks don't deserve your nay-saying negativity. They deserve your thanks. Without those sorts of pioneering content creators willing to work on a project without a guarentee of financial gain you'd never have gotten Second Life.

I have gotten a sense, without naming any names, that it is going to be significantly more expensive to run regions in Blue Mars than in SL.

Most "developers" will probably be tenants in other peoples' sims for a long time.

Really there are a few people in this thread who really get touchy whenever anyone points out that Blue Mars might have some flaws. They really go on the attack whenever that happens.

But I am beginning to think that this discussion needs to move to another venue. What reason could there be to keep having it here in the SL forums, unless it is an attempt to create a buzz that will get attention of SL people and get them to move over the Blue Mars?

Why not move it to the developer forums (which are pretty dead) over at Blue Mars, or to some other fan sites?

I get the same feeling, though they've said that it will be comparable to SL. Then again, I have yet to actually hear any numbers.

I might have an as-yet-unexplored option, but since I cannot even afford an SL sim, that likely includes me.

Certainly at least some of the evangelizing could be moved, and some of the discussion is indeed better done on the BM dev forums, but I still think there might be some value in discussing some aspects of Blue Mars here. I think that there will likely be a lot of crossover, and I'm sure that there are a lot of people here who will want to know what's up with the new kid in town.

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Based on what? A hunch? Wild guess?

It certainly cannot be from viewing any solidified fee schedules, because they don't exist yet.



Oh? So you speak for "most" BM developers huh? Have you surveyed the developers and based your presumption on real findings? No, you've jumped to this conclusion based on your own opinion, which is not fact.



It's the naysayers and fanbois who are on the attack here. Desperately grasping at straws to find any fault in something that hasn't even been fully created yet.



Beginning? You said that near page one.

I disagree.

If LL decides it's too much or inappropriate, they will lock it. This is an ideal place to discuss this. To even begin to suggest proponents of BM do it merely to convert SLers into BMers is absurd.

Personally, I hope the SL fanbois don't follow us there.

Only the paranoid see attacks where there are none.

Tell us, who exactly here are you considering an attacking naysayer or fanbois?

It is easy to call names and make rather nebulous slurs that you probably don't expect to have to qualify. You are only making yourself look bad with that behavior however.

Why not try to be more civil?

It is natural for people to want to discuss this. Yes there will some inaccurate or misleading information passed that should be corrected, that is normal and understandable. What is not understandable is all the attitude. Why not correct the misunderstanding and wrong information without the attitude?

There are four levels of graphics quality, low medium, high, and very high (similar to the SL Graphics levels). The default is very high (so the techies at BM can assess performance over a wide range of machines, graphics cards, Operating systems, etc.

You can lower the quality level (if your card is not up to 'very high') by following this procedure:

http://life-on-mars.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=support&action=display&thread=27

Rock

Implying I am paranoid is hardly civil.

Naysayers and fanbois rarely speak from fact, but often from emotion.

I'll leave it at that.

Admittedly, my wife and I had been fanbois of SL for a very long time. That greatly erroded over time, for a list of reasons too long to bore you with, but we remain because we have many friends and some viability in our ventures.

RockyRacoon said it well about enthusiasm. We are excited about this new opportunity and are very impressed with how they are going about it. Both Weedy and I participated in World of Warcraft beta and find remarkable similarities in Blue Mars development team.

We also participated in Vanguard beta with the same enthusiasm initially, but were greatly disappointed in Brad McQuaid's intransigence. When he developed Everquest, I thought he was a genius, but after the Vanguard fiasco, he appeared as just another narrowminded developer who was doomed to fail.

So you see Gabriele, I speak from experience in beta programs. I know final results can be good and they can be disasterous. I'm not suggesting BM will be one or the other, but I can say with certainty, they are getting off on the right foot.

For someone to suggest otherwise, especially those who have no knowledge of them is just wrong on every level.

What is so hard about that for people to understand?

That reminds me of a quote from Prokofy (who shall remain nameless):



SL did things very differently to the other games/worlds that were around at the time of its genesis, but SL became what we all know and love (and hate at times) today.

BM is lucky, in that they are starting out after the groundbreaking work has been done by SL. I would think that the first BM conversation went something like this:



Of course, you may disagree with what constitutes 'advantages' and 'disadvantages', and BM is still far from releasing its first set of policies, TOS, etc, and is still very much in listening mode. If you feel strongly about any points in particular, then don't whine here, get involved in the beta, and make your views known in the BM Dev Forum, and tell the BM staff directly. That's what I do.

And of course, discussing the first real competitor to SL is absolutely appropriate in the SL forums. I am certain that Linden staff have read this thread. If the dangers inherent from a viable competitor are recognized, it should spur LL to improve SL even further, and eliminate the drawbacks people complain about the most, with a greater sense of urgency. Everyone benefits from good competition.

Rock

I implied nothing to you, the statement is true, and I typed it to show you how you are coming across here.

You are still doing it, I hope you are including yourself in this emotional observation. There isn't much emotion on my side except a little sadness that it has to come to this kind of thing.

I would very appreciate it if you did.

So you have beta experience, that is wonderful for you. You might indeed have insights that others don't here and yet again you might not or what you think is valid experience may turn out to be dissimilar enough to be wrong.
People are entitled to have an opinion, you can only present your experience and hope that others draw something useful from it. It does not mean that it is the only valid thing around nor does anyone who disagrees deserve of any name calling.

An afterthought here, perhaps being a "fanbois" of SL as you call it was a mistake you need to learn from, after all if you could not see the problems with LL back then how do know by being the same now with BM you are falling into the same mistake?
It might just seem to you like they are starting off on the right foot, but then presumably you must have thought that about LL once too. If not then why the hell did you stay all this time?
Sure BM are doing stuff differently and I can understand it gives you some hope that this way will be the right way but given the fact that BM is really only the second actual VW that isn't a just a big game, and these things are not proven to work anywhere, you cannot be sure - yet you do not seem very cautious - that is something I fail to understand.
I was cautious about SL, I am cautious about BM and I will be cautious of every new thing. Unchecked enthusiasm just isn't my thing.

It's interesting that quite a number of residents express this opinion, which is quite the opposite of what I want from virtual worlds. All my life I have leaned towards realism in my drawing and painting although I should say that a good strong 'line' has always been my first preference.

I don't see BM as the same thing as SL at all. In fact they are already two very different things in my opinion.

From what I've seen and read of BM, the pros are that residents and developers will be in a position to create much more showstopping RP games and scenarios.

Whatever the limitations of SL graphics might be, however, the freewheeling opportunities for creativity that all residents enjoy here just aren't there with BM.

Personally, I think I could get a great deal out of working on Blue Mars but I doubt it will ever be more than a drawing board and a business opportunity for me. I *need* the freedom that other residents enjoy in SL just as much as I don't.

If you see what I mean?

Yes. BM gives me the impression, they would like to target developers who use their platform fas a proving ground for their respective projects, as a cheaper alternative to buying hardware and paying extra help, especially if the source code is mostly written.

Many developers have no interest in social or virtual communities. Someone developing a railroad simulator or a fishing game, would have not be concerned with that sort of thing.

This whole free-for-all thing just doesn't cut it in many circles.

Garett Hardin said it best in Tragedy of the Commons. "A dilemma in which multiple individuals acting independently in their own self-interest can ultimately destroy a shared limited resource even when it is clear that it is not in anyone's long term interest for this to happen."

This what the adcutters did. Many of us saw it coming, long before LL even flinched on the issue. Our global network group needlessly took alot that heat for their misdeeds, but we prevailed to this day, in good standing.

This is why beta programs are good. It's a better uncover issues there, than to nerf features in which rule-abiding subscribers have become accustomed to.

I have a few problems with some of the notions being discussed here, firstly you are assuming that Second Life is some wildly successful virtual world that everyone and their dog knows about. SL still has lots of growing to do as do all virtual worlds as this is a concept that is only starting to be understood by the masses.

My point is there are literally millions more people who have never tried a virtual world than there are dedicated SL'ers would consider leaving SL for another platform. Any growth in general awareness about virtual worlds will benefit SL and Blue Mars and many others who are out there.

Its all about getting noticed and there are two things that attract the public's attention more than anything else, drama and mystery.

SL sure has its share of drama, in fact in so many ways SL cannot be separated from the drama it fosters. Each new announcement by Linden labs, openspace pricing, adult changes, windlight creates waves of drama that spreads virally through the net, reaching farther and farther into the real world and (hopefully) getting new people to try virtual worlds.. everything gets the twice over by the dramatists. This is part of the entertainment value of Second Life.

Blue Mars has so far been playing the mystery card, whether its intentional or not (i think not personally). There has been just enough information leaked through the stringent developer pre-beta NDA to make people see the potential but not much more. Judging from this thread and the huge turnout at last night's interview its either a masterful strategy to get people interested in Blue Mars or a lucky chance.

I would look at some other upcoming virtual world platforms that are not getting the same kind of attention the Blue mars is getting, namely Vastpark and FriendsHangout. For whatever reason they have failed to capture the virtual going public's imagination. They are both very cool platforms with tons to offer.. why aren't they being discussed here as potentially the SL killer?

This leads into my next point mainly about risk taking, nothing ventured nothing gained so goes the saying. And what kind of risk are we talking about here? How much time is really going to take away from your SL experience to check out some other worlds? Investing in a new venture if you have the backing and the talent to pull it off is a calculated risk, one I am prepared to take. I'm sure there will be others.

Am I going to up and leave SL? why would I? In fact I expect my SL business will partially fund my new activities in Blue Mars, understanding I am somewhat lucky in that selling sculpt maps is relatively low maintenance.

-w

That is nothing less than a personal attack.



Oh, so I'm wreckless too? You have absolutely no idea about my level of caution.

Add that to the list of personal attacks you so loudly denounce.

You are right about the fail to understand part.