Direction, percieved unfairness, and the mainstream

I'm not really trying to limit opportunity at all, you know.

And I think Desmond actually touched on my point about "direction". Which is often conflated with fairness, but I'm not sure that it's the same.

For example. Some people can, naturally, run faster than others. However, when somebody complains about this unfairness, it is inevitably because a) they are, or want to, be a runner themselves; b) they feel that, because others can run intrinsically faster than them, they will not succeed; and c) they don't immediately go off and try and succeed at something else instead. Thus, while the "unfairness" is there for everyone, the _complaint_ about unfairness (or even the negative emotions about it) only comes when someone loses direction. We don't technically need to address the unfairness because thousands of people live with it every day and aren't bothered at all. It's the direction that can be addressed.

It's true in my own case too. I believe that I am not very good at art, and I _know_ that many people are much better than me - but I wasn't ever bothered about it until I came to SL and it blocked (or, I should say, it _apparently_ blocked) some directions I wanted to take there. Note that I'm not at all sure how good I am, because I haven't really tried to develop it - part of the problem is that the modern world really encourages people not to ever try to develop things they've fallen behind at early. (I mean, I've been told that people don't respond well to me complaining that I can't build because I'm not a newbie, yet I see no difference between an actual newbie and a 2-3 year resident who just hasn't wanted to build before.) Likewise, I'm not positive that lack of art skill is actually what blocks me - part of my complaint about "the person who did the project I was talking about" is that she didn't ultimately need to use any significant artistic ability to do it, and that was one of my key doubts about it.

But breaking away from my personal situation, I also see that MANY MMORPGs have much less enjoyable base games than SL or other regular games, but hold popularity because they give a fake version of that American Dream that Desmond was talking about. You can log in tonight, and when you log out, things will be better.

So I suppose my question is this: without limiting any opportunities, is it possible:
a) to _add_ an "artificial", game-like source of direction to SL without disrupting the existing paradigm, so that those who lose direction on the social sides can find one again quickly?
or
b) to create some system for giving more certain feedback to people to keep them from losing direction due to wrong perceptions? (I did actually once _try_ to do this, but it didn't take off at all)

Metaplace actually went the whole way and implemented an XP system which gives you points for "dong virtual world stuff", although the points don't "power you up" that much other than socially (eg, you can get a cooler chair to sit in at the central hub! ), but I have no idea how well that will work or how it would work in SL, since MP's social paradigm is way different from SL's.

*smiles and purrs happily*


yes, that is what I mean, though, when I mentioned looking for, searching for the art world connections in world. Most of whom, in that world, are artists.

I have some art up at Honebear's mall, and Phil's store. More at Phil's (Prim Savers). In a fit of something or other, I did remove my abstracts from both, though. Those, well most of those, are the only ones I hadn't created in real world off the computer. I do not recall if I also pulled the few real world abstracts I've done. And one piece up at Wren's Mall. I cannot recall if the month is up for that one, though. Which reminds me - that one is fabric on fabric, so there is that also that I work on/create with. heh

Honeybear's


I know I have pictures of the other two, but can't seem to find now.

Again you are relying on others for direction- that is the fail inherent in this idea. What do YOU want to do?

As for building- been here almost four years, just started sometime mid last year- and there is sooo much stuf i havent a clue about!

and this:

Sounds like giving ribbons and awards to everyone in the race so no one feels bad -

Every organization on Earth is a good-ol'-boy network. Every damned last one of them. It's human nature to like people like yourself, or people who are charismatic, or people who are gregarious. People who have the best of those traits find each other and control every organization on Earth.

Even groups that officially don't value charisma, and who may even be suspicious of success, operate the same way. Who in your local science fiction fandom organizes the events, chairs the committees, hold officer positions, hosts the parties? Who does everyone in the room face? Yep, they are the ones who are most charismatic.

There's some logic to this. Those people tend to have the skills to do those jobs. They tend to be put in those positions with the blessing of everyone.

But here's where it gets irksome. If you're not so charismatic, are you on anybody's speed dial? Do you get invited to the private events? Every had an event planned in your presence, only to have the topic changed when you expressed interest? Have you had that happen repeatedly? Ever been given a really stupid excuse why you can't attend something, and had it delivered to you as if you were a child? Ever been the person behind the scenes who made a major event happen, but had the event not happen at all the next year because the charismatic person chosen to run it declined, and you weren't asked?

Welcome to my world.

There are non-social consequences to being not-so-charismatic, too. Ever been in a meeting and expressed a great idea and had it go nowhere until it was repeated by someone else? Who do you think gets credit come performance review time?

The consequences can be more immediate, too. Know someone in your social circle who fixes cars at-cost for his friends, but all you can get out of him when you ask for advice (not even an actual fix) is a shrug? He's being perfectly reasonable not wanting to be on-call all the time, but the cost of not being his buddy is you're at the mercy of someone you find in the yellow pages. The movers and shakers can be sure their mechanic is honest. You can't.

Need to move? If you're popular, you give the word and you have a moving crew for the cost of pizza. If you're not, moving is a lot to ask of the one or two people who will show up, so you're better off paying a company to move you.

Anyone see themselves in any of this?

The pragmatist in me doesn't think there will be a solution in my lifetime and doesn't blame anyone, but sure as hell I do think there's a lot unfair in the world.

What does this have to do with SL? I believe there are a lot of people like me in SL. They probably bring a lot of cynicism with them, and that cynicism is probably confirmed by the same good-ol'-boy networking that goes on even in geek circles.

Not sure exactly what this thread is aiming for, and I didn't read the other thread. Having said that, I came here with no expectations, just wanted to see what was going on. I wandered around the nude beaches, all the standard places, and bought a small plot of land. Fortunately I had a problem flying the skybox and happened upon this forum, and sort of got adopted by Lindal and others. The Cartel became my direction until recently, when my relationship with a special one came along. I think I would have just left back then, too, had I not encountered the problem I posted and gotten involved here.

Searching on "Skybox placement...help please" may get you to that thread. It shows what this crowd is all about. Thanks so much!

No liesure activity, and no community, is going to be all things to all people.

The kinds of games you describe already exist. People who enjoy them more should go play them. And there is nothing wrong with that. Second Life isn't a bad experience, or a failure, simply because some people like something else better. No more than chocolate's popularity should be considered a failure for vanilla.

The idea behind Second Life- as some sort of social that builds itself with minimal authoritarian direction- is a good idea. It's not the idea that is bad, it is the implementation.

The problem is more in the implementation. In a lot of ways, Second Life is too laissez-faire. A coherent social entity isn't going to develop on its own in a few years. It will take centuries to develop on its own, just like in real life. To have it develop in a few years, Linden Lab has to do things to jumpstart it along.

And part of the idea involves the residents being able to effectively work together and communicate with each other, and Second Life just still doesn't provide all the tools to do that.

In a lot of ways, Second Life resembles the state of nature out of which civilization eventually develops. On its current path, though, it will remain the state of nature for a long time to come.

Perhaps the problem is that Linden Lab's management does not have enough philosophers working for it. Linden Lab seems to be constantly oblivious to concepts like fairness, justice, how people react to their world. With a few more philosophers on board, maybe the would have a better rule-making process, better customer service, provide us the tools to create the social world (not just content; the social connection).

I personally like the concept on which Second Life was founded. What frustrates me is that it doesn't live up to its concept. But if I wanted a more structured game with a more defined goal, there are a lot already out there. The only reason for Second Life to exist is if it is offering something unique.

/me agrees wholeheartedly.

Brilliant, as always, Amity.

You've hit it on the head why so many people leave SL: The constant feeling that either the wool is being pulled over your eyes or the rug is being pulled out from under your feet.

I haven't been in-world for more than 3 hours in the last 6 months. I find the forums much more stimulating, interesting, fun, than anything inside SL at the moment... And a safer way to invest my time, let alone $$.

I know how this works. I'm often the smart and skilled person with zero charisma.

(Well, at least I think I am smart and skilled. The zero charimsa part, I know.)

But, how I get by is hooking up with charismatic people who are smart enough to understand what I have to offer. I feed my ideas or work to them. They use their charismatic charms to make my ideas and work matter. And they- being smart enough to know they should keep me happy or I will hook up with another charismatic person- are sure to give me plenty of credit and thanks.

Would I prefer the spotlight? Absolutely. Everyone has a rockstar fantasy. But I personally get more satisfaction from making a difference than getting credit for it. Is that a way of re-defining my world to mentally trick myself into thinking that something unfair is actually fair? Maybe, but I'm happy, and that counts to me.

I've always asked myself how much of my brains I would trade for charisma. The answer is none. I prefer being the smart one rather than the popular one. Maybe if I ever had a taste of popularity, that would change. But I haven't. I have so many advantages in my life that I can let charisma go.

Of course, one of the nice things about being in virtual-land is that I've always been more charismatic in text than in person. In that regard, Second Life favors what social skills I have.

Mmmhmm that's what I mean about finding your niche; and you may have left, bored, if you hadn't found it. I like the Forum Cartel denizens too. But, I was called a 'sycophant' because of that a little earlier on. But, I am still here and I STILL like the Forum Cartel people. It didn't destroy my self esteem or anything, was just surprising that someone saw me that way, but ok, they are entitled to their opinion. Some people seem to come to the Forums, and kind of stick, while others get their question answered and move on. Not sure why that is. I do remember your early posts and Lindal helping you.

Yep, absolutely. I have been lucky in life, I think, luckier than I have any right to be. But I've never been "cool". I've never been the guy people get excited about just because I show up. I can't get that from playing games with fake achievement systems, because I KNOW THEY'RE FAKE.

In SL I'm still not a rock star, but I've been able to get a lot more positive feedback and validation than in RL, and I've been getting there using the same kinds of skills that Yumi has. I don't have everything my way, I don't get people to go along with all my wacky plans and role playing, but some of it, yeh, it works. The stuff that doesn't work, I quit doing, and try something else. I'm flexible. Ferrets gotta be.

I'm sure some people think the ferret's annoying, but the ferret comes along with a prim that does something cool, and hey, the ferret must be cool. And if geeky old me can do it, why can't Yumi?

I don't know, I tried to find out. She had some kind of role playing schtick she wanted validated, and it didn't work, and she got stuck there. She didn't go on to try something else. When I pressed her on that, she was all about how she should be able to get that validation... if she wanted to be a rock star, she should be able to level up as a rock star.

And because she couldn't get THAT validation the way SHE wanted, SL isn't fair. It's fairer than RL. Nobody has to be ugly, or stutter (in text, anyway), or crippled, or mute. Of course it's not perfect, but given the choice of SL, RL, or fish mining for crafting levels, I'm going with SL.

Yumi's wanting to limit others goes back to her "Goldrush economy" thread. If she has changed her viewpoint, I will retract the statement.

Wow, so many interesting angles here!



The Goldrush Economy thread was simply to say that we should be cautious about the amount of money people may be spending on attempting to do things that are, due to Second Life's social model, intrinsically doomed. It wasn't an intent to restrict opportunity, only to give customers improved information.



I don't know, but what concerned me more was that Argent (and others!) wouldn't say anything about how they did it.



Well.. I mean, you basically wanted to be a ferret and got to be that, so judging me for not adapting just because you didn't have to seems a bit harsh.



Which immediately brings their mind two questions:
a) how can we help new people in general find their niches?
b) does it *have* to be a "niche", ie, have a limited number of people involved? And if so, how can SL upscale?



No, but the question of keeping popularity up has to be considered, and direction - especially creative direction - appears to be part of that. Remember this started from Desmond asking how FR could possibly be more popular than SL. And also bear in mind that, if everything on the Blue Mars thread is true, we could very soon be in a situation where creative direction is _the_ selling point of SL, as it was when it first started, because it's the unique function offered above Blue Mars.



You sound a lot like me when I was younger But the thing is, if you actually manage to hang out with those charismatic people for a while, you discover something - namely, they usually have to put a heck of a lot of work into being charismatic, and even give up things they enjoy in order to adapt better. It's not _just_ some talent they have, it's also a fairly involved set of tradeoffs, and it's shifting around all the time, especially with the internet.

Yumi, you completely ignored the bit where Desmond said this:
I would go on to say that anyone thinking that the grid can be made fair is just kidding themselves.
You cannot make SL fair for the same reasons RL cannot be fair.
If you still mistakenly believe otherwise then by all means dash yourself to pieces against the solid wall of truth - the wall however will not change.

All the things you believe to be the reasons for why you don't get what you seek have counter examples in people who also had those experiences and over came them - yet you never address this except to say either:

a) It is somehow different.
b) Give some trivial reason why it does not apply.

How do you get to Carnegie Hall?
I have over 300 avatars of so many species that I have to organize them taxonomically down to the suborder/superfamily level to keep track of them.



That's all me. I don't want to think of how much I spent on all that... so don't tell me I haven't adapted.
How do you get to Carnegie Hall, again?

N, Q, or R train to 57th St or the M5 Bus

I see this as part of the beauty of Second Life, I am artistically challenged in a big way, but I can paint a picture in my mind, Second Life allows me to paint that picture here, not an actual picture but a building or a little town, sure I'm using other people's stuff for large parts of it but it looks pretty much how I envisaged it should look and it's still my picture being reproduced, my imagination being reproduced, with the aid of others here who give me the parts to create the whole, well they sell me the parts but that's not the point!



Yes it's possible but it's how you take it and how you yourself respond. If you set your points in pure monetary terms you'll be disappointed. Do you not get satisfaction out of helping people out? The thank you responses I get from people I help out aren't points that get registered to the whole world, but they register with me, even the people who have the courtesy to thank me when they pick from my money tree.

Wait, wait... what?

She meant talent

I'm lost (and a bit lazy to read through the thread, since it's a continued discussion from another thread I haven't seen...I doubt it would help anyway).

What (according to the original poster) is unfair??

Oh...

Second Life

As I mentioned.. that's irrelevant, because the thing which causes the complaints of unfairness _isn't_ actually the unfairness (it may even be something that's not unfair at all), but the loss of direction. But that's a whole different issue to unfairness.



Sure, but practice at what? And if it's a social thing, how do you practice without annoying a bunch of people on the early attempts?



My hopes aren't in monetary terms at all - in fact, the gadgets I created were mainly made just to earn some L$ rather than with any intend of cashing out (and I've never cashed out beyond tier). And, I do like helping people, and it does give me some satisfaction, but it isn't the be-all-and-and-all of what I want to be doing.



Why am I reminded of http://www.comparethemeerkat.com/ ?

OK for a moment lets forget about you changing from complaining that things are not fair to this new understanding about a loss of direction.
What are you now saying is the cause of the loss of direction in your SL? Also consider this, a personal loss of direction is the responsibility of that person only, nobody else.

Yumi what do you want to be doing? You mentioned something about magic before, what do you want? The answers to your questions lie within you, you're smarter than the average bear and you know it. Something is stifling you that shouldn't be stifling you.

The moral of the story is *persistence*. Try things. Different things. Nobody guarantees you're going to get to be a ferret.



Sometimes you do. Part of what you have to learn is how not to do that.