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Traffic Bots Against the TOS of LL? |
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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09-06-2008 10:49
What a great grid load test for LL at least we and they would see the scalability of the grid as it is now, has anyone considered that this might be one of the reasons that LL allows then atm? Same with picks and all the other things that are being allowed, we are all helping LL develop new ways to do things  Just a thought Unless Phil is right and Bots don't count at all towards grid load.  In which case it wouldn't test anything.  |
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Rene Erlanger
Scuderia Shapes & Skins G
Join date: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2,008
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09-06-2008 10:51
makes me wonder why someone who has " continued high volume sales at Phil's shop, month in and month out!" has a need to game the system? Is the high volume due to gaming the system or because of well made items? I guess no one will ever know since gaming the system is a part of that business plan. That aside and ethics apart.....it proves that most shoppers really don't care. Some might notice the campers, some might not....yet they continue buying. If the silent majority really were against the use of bots....Phils' sales would invariably reflect that. |
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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09-06-2008 10:52
Saw this in a quoted post:-
Have to LOL at you calling Chip inexperienced though. Phil you are so clueless about how SL has changed in the last few years.  Second. Colette. People have been making the point that SL has changed in the last few years. Now you make the same point but for a different reason. Isn't it about time to get up to date with the way things are now, instead of fighting to bring the good old days back? They are not going to come back, Colette. If they way things are now isn't what you want from SL, then perhaps SL is no longer for you. You can't turn back time. LL will no doubt remove the traffic-based rankings, which will please some people, including me. Jeska has indicated otherwise, but we'll see. _____________________
Prim Savers - almost 1000 items of superbly crafted, top quality, very low prim furniture, and all at amazingly low prices.
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Seymour/213/120/251/ |
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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09-06-2008 10:53
Well, honestly? That type of forum behavior sounds like a LOT more people than just Phil... Quite probably. But that doesn't mean Phil isn't included. |
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Sunspot Pixie
dread heliotrope
Join date: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 493
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09-06-2008 10:53
Rene, Phil, Bella - and the rest who tend to do this. Interpretation is not "twisting" Unless someone actually says "X said that" it is not "twisting". Its interpretation, and if someone misinterprets your words, there is a decent chance its because you were not specific enough about what you meant. Simply explain why you were misinterpreted. Or tell someone "Thats not what I said" or "Thats not what I meant" People make misinterpretations all the time, all of you who throw the "twist" accusations around do it as much as anyone else. Throwing around this "twist" stuff all the time like theres some grand conspiracy to purposefully alter the meaning of what you say - comes off looking really paranoid. They're not just questions, Please. _____________________
If we eat our soup in the rain, we'll never run out...
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Pie Psaltery
runs w/scissors
Join date: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 987
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09-06-2008 10:56
If the silent majority really were against the use of bots....Phils' sales would invariably reflect that. What if the silent majority really are against it and we'd never know how much Phil's sales would actually be if it weren't so well known that he uses bots to game search? How do you know who is in the silent majority if they are silent anyhow? Have you taken a poll of other low-prim furniture makers who don't use bots to artifically inflate thier search postion what their sales are like and if they have polled their customers on their preference of shopping environments? _____________________
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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09-06-2008 10:58
Insinuating what other people "want" or "believe" through what are obviously pointed, incriminating and sarcastic questions is twisting, even if I agree with your "side" mostly on this thread. Collette, you do have a habit of taking what someone said and formulating questions intended to paint people as holding a very unfavourable opinion. They're not just questions, Please. They are just questions. You are welcome. It gives them an opportunity to say -- "NO, thats not what I meant". By simply answering the question. ------------------ I do not twist around peoples meanings intentionally. We all get misinterpreted. You are entitled to your opinions on how I supposedly intentionally twist things, but I am telling you that that is not what I do. |
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Pie Psaltery
runs w/scissors
Join date: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 987
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09-06-2008 10:58
If they way things are now isn't what you want from SL, then perhaps SL is no longer for you. Phil, if they take away all the ways you can game the system, will SL be for you? _____________________
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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09-06-2008 10:58
How do you know who is in the silent majority if they are silent anyhow? Ask Richard Nixon |
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Toy LaFollette
I eat paintchips
Join date: 11 Feb 2004
Posts: 2,359
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09-06-2008 11:09
That aside and ethics apart.....it proves that most shoppers really don't care. Some might notice the campers, some might not....yet they continue buying. If the silent majority really were against the use of bots....Phils' sales would invariably reflect that. all this is immaterial, traffic will be gone and why? People using it to game the system are forcing it to be gone. I wonder what the next system will be to be gamed and stopped? _____________________
"So you see, my loyalty lies with Second Life, not with Linden Lab. Where I perceive the actions of Linden Lab to be in conflict with the best interests of Second Life, I side with Second Life."-Jacek
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Alicia Sautereau
if (!social) hide;
Join date: 20 Feb 2007
Posts: 3,125
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09-06-2008 11:12
all this is immaterial, traffic will be gone and why? People using it to game the system are forcing it to be gone. I wonder what the next system will be to be gamed and stopped? post count for popularity /laughs at Colette for pre-emptive cheating |
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Rene Erlanger
Scuderia Shapes & Skins G
Join date: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2,008
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09-06-2008 11:13
Do it  I have the same thought: what everyone who opposes the use of bots to game search ought to really do is go out and make 100 bots each, load them onto empty 16m plots with all the best keywords plugged into place. It is accepted in this thread that if every single merchant on this platform were to engage in the exact same practice as Phil, the resulting slew of bots would undoubtedly grind the system resources down to a halt. So let's all do it. Let's all make 100 bots and park em where ever. Because if Phil can do it, screw it, so can I, and why shouldn't I? I mean, I'd be stupid not to use the same techniques as my competitors to increase my sales, and gosh knows I wouldn't want Phil Deakins to think I was stupid. This is exactly the point of what is wrong about using bots to game traffic and alter search result. If everyone did it, it would grind the system to a halt. It is a system of advertising that not everyone can use without dire consequences for grid stability or accessablity. If everyone used it as a form of advertisng, no one would be able to use the platform. The above is about as credible as asking everyone to get naked and turn this into a Naturist Grid.....that would surely bring down the Fashion industry! |
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Pie Psaltery
runs w/scissors
Join date: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 987
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09-06-2008 11:18
I am all about the nekkid
Edited to include: But why isn't that a credible arguement? Other then I'm naked right now? _____________________
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Rene Erlanger
Scuderia Shapes & Skins G
Join date: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2,008
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09-06-2008 11:21
to be honest, with such a setup i can live with and prolly shop at their place aswell as this isn`t cramming 50 bots in a 10x10 skybox and you can see the actual product befor buying It wasn't......it was like 40/50 bots spread throughout the sim in the various shops and tastefully done...they were really spaced out in such a way. They even had AV name tags above with like "product XYZ Bot" So it was clear to the public that they were Bots. Yes, it gamed the traffic for sure...e.g 40 bots x 1440 traffic units =57,600 traffic units Despite it being in your face..i did not feel uncomfortable shopping there. |
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MortVent Charron
Can haz cuddles now?
Join date: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 1,942
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09-06-2008 11:22
Is it any wonder that the same old arguments come up again and again, when sensible people make statements like that. There are no slots that avs take. Removong one bot doesn't leave a slot that a person can take. I thought that was common knowledge by now. Phil: the grid can only handle so many accounts logged in I thought you knew that bit of common knowledge, especially with the recent spats of them having to restrict logins due to issues handling the number of accounts logged in... _____________________
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Bippity boppity boo! I'm stalking you! 9 out of 10 voices in my head don't like you... the 10th went to get the ammo |
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Sunspot Pixie
dread heliotrope
Join date: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 493
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09-06-2008 11:24
They are just questions. You are welcome. It gives them an opportunity to say -- "NO, thats not what I meant". By simply answering the question. ------------------ I do not twist around peoples meanings intentionally. We all get misinterpreted. You are entitled to your opinions on how I supposedly intentionally twist things, but I am telling you that that is not what I do. I just have to groan when I see someone accuse others of using tactics to win, then do it themselves. Especially when they Eddie Haskell their way out of it when confronted with it. Just maybe though, you just don't realise you do it because you're so used to doing it. Person A: I support abortion rights. Person B: Oh, so you like to kill babies? _____________________
If we eat our soup in the rain, we'll never run out...
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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09-06-2008 11:27
Person A: I support abortion rights. Person B: Oh, so you like to kill babies? I would never post such a question. Even if you are right this would be an insane hyperbole. |
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Pie Psaltery
runs w/scissors
Join date: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 987
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09-06-2008 11:30
I'm going to try to rephrase it again and see if I can get any better answer:
If it is accepted that Phil is completely within his rights to use trafficbots to game the search result, then it should be assumed that it is ok for every single merchant on the SL platform to follow suit and also use trafficbots. If every single merchant used trafficbots to artifically inflate their traffic numbers to optimize their own position in search, not only would search be rendered a completely useless tool, but it would (yes, it would) negatively effect performance and assessablity to the SL platform for everyone. Therefore, it would be negitive for SL as a platform if everyone used trafficbots. So why is it ok for Phil? _____________________
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Rene Erlanger
Scuderia Shapes & Skins G
Join date: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2,008
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09-06-2008 11:37
Yes all search gaming should go - to allow for a more level playing field for all. The search is intended to be fair. Not a nonsense patchwork of gamed systems. Wish I knew where Zaphod put that quote by Robin Linden, because she says right in it they wanted a system that was fair to all. ..................................... How are placing carefully crafted text in land name and in land description a form of gaming?....you really don't know what you're talking about ..your comments are moving from the ridiculous....to off the wall! If you sell a product, you should use main keywords, followed by variants,followed by secondaries and sometimes foreign language versions. It's a skill in itself as you have to a certain amount of researching and testing of the Search engine to find keywords where you get most visibility......the same concept is used in keywords in Classified adverts. I suppose in your bizarre mind, you believe everyone should use exactly the same keywords in their classifieds if in the same business sector....and the determining factor would just be based on price alone? There's not much difference in the use of keywords used in Land description or Prim description than used in Classifieds other than you can fit less into those appropriate fields. |
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Sunspot Pixie
dread heliotrope
Join date: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 493
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09-06-2008 11:49
I would never post such a question. Even if you are right this would be an insane hyperbole. And I didn't say you would, and of course it's hyperbole, but your "questions" come across as being in that same vein, albeit FAR less contentious than the abortion example. _____________________
If we eat our soup in the rain, we'll never run out...
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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09-06-2008 11:51
How are placing carefully crafted text in land name and in land description a form of gaming?....you really don't know what you're talking about ..your comments are moving from the ridiculous....to off the wall!. I didn't say that was gaming. I said that was Ugly. If you sell a product, you should use main keywords, followed by variants,followed by secondaries and sometimes foreign language versions. It's a skill in itself as you have to a certain amount of researching and testing of the Search engine to find keywords where you get most visibility......the same concept is used in keywords in Classified adverts. I suppose in your bizarre mind, you believe everyone should use exactly the same keywords in their classifieds if in the same business sector....and the determining factor would just be based on price alone? There's not much difference in the use of keywords used in Land description or Prim description than used in Classifieds other than you can fit less into those appropriate fields. I didn't call the keywords gaming. I said they were ugly. Like Ciaran I would like the parcel name to be allowed to be a nice clean name and use the body of Text to convey keywords and the rest. It would be nice if instead of the parcel name adding extra weight it either used the Parcel description or even another field for tags. Although it would be good if the keywords at least matched what that parcel contained. ------------- And for those watching along at home - even though Rene misinterpreted me - I did not accuse her of twisting things. |
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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09-06-2008 11:52
And I didn't say you would, and of course it's hyperbole, but your "questions" come across as being in that same vein, albeit FAR less contentious than the abortion example. I will take that into consideration in the future - that was never my intent. |
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Rene Erlanger
Scuderia Shapes & Skins G
Join date: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2,008
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09-06-2008 11:58
It was an Extrapolation. I definitely WAS referring to a future of unhindered Trafficbots. Its the simple process of exponential expansion. A lot of people 100 years ago would have Balked if you told then in a mere two hundred years the Population of the world would be over 6 billion. How many trafficbots would there be if every single store and venue on the grid decided to use 20? A Hell of a lot. Assuming continued growth if you asked the same question in a year-- A Hell of a lot more. Nice attempt of a sidestep....not! You made an assumption and inferred there could be as many as 100,000 bots here and now on SL. I went on a few posts later to explain why there could not be that many. My reply started "Simple answer to that"....see post no.#262 It's not hard to admit you're wrong once in awhile! |
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Pie Psaltery
runs w/scissors
Join date: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 987
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09-06-2008 12:01
That's very good Rene... you get a cookie for being right.
But it would only take 2000 merchants 50 bots to make her right. _____________________
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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09-06-2008 12:03
Nice attempt of a sidestep....not! You made an assumption and inferred there could be as many as 100,000 bots here and now on SL. I went on a few posts later to explain why there could not be that many. My reply started "Simple answer to that"....see post no.#262 It's not hard to admit you're wrong once in awhile! No .. I said we could easily have 100,000 here and Now if everyone who owns a store or a venue was a trafficbot runner. Is that not accurate? That was the reason for my question how many stores and venues are in Second Life? At 20 Bots a person, Phil's amount, you only need 5000 trafficbot running stores/venues to get to 100,000. ------------------ I do not think there are 100,000 bots currently on the grid. That would be silly theres not 100,000 logged on 24/7, obviously. Could there be 10,000 as other speculated? Its plausible anyhow. It would only take 500 places running 20 bots each to get there. |