Limiting theft by limiting creation

This.

What if they don't send the real source code?

Does LL actually employ people to look through submitted source code anyway, or just depend on the OpenSource community spotting it?

What about "this" or did you mean "that"?

There's a for sale version of the Neil Life viewer.

Maybe that's how it works in the land of the free, but I can assure you the desire to design and produce an item or service does *not* require me to apply and pay for permission from the government here. Depending on the nature of the item and/ or the yearly income I *may* have to register for certain reasons, none of which include my innate right to produce.



I would ask WTF are you on about, but I'm going to assume where you are you have to send off forms before lifting a digit.



I happen to know a little of RL IP issues, as currently something I help with is considering action over IP theft. However, we never had to apply for the right to create our own IP, and we are not now blaming the government for the theft of IP. This is in RL, where things are litigious and "not my fault" enough, surely we can't be trying collectively to drag SL into the mire of reality we are so desperately trying to escape from by playing in fantasy?

I will reiterate, if I wish to design and make a product, providing the product isn't a highly regulated one (such as food, for understandable reasons!), I have to ask permission from nobody. If someone else steals my designs, then I have recourse through the law to make them stop. But I would never want a law that prevented anyone from having the tools to produce items of their own or anyone elses designs on the off chance they might act unlawfully.

There is no issue with NPIOF or PIOF accounts creating and selling. There is an issue with a small percentage of people in those brackets stealing and reselling, and there is already a mechanism by which they can be reported and penalised for this. Of course more can be done to make this process more effective, but limiting the many who do not wish to engage in crime to (as a futile gesture) prevent the few who do is plain wrong. As is demanding a registration/ creation license/ other excuse for a fee. LL appear happy with the concept of encouraging new users by allowing them in freely, and tempting them with company support (a joke as that appears to be currently), a stipend, and the ability to own mainland parcels. LL are frequently clueless, however they do seem to understand it is better to have thousands of users who contribute to the social structure and throw the odd few US$ at L$ for a dress or pair of shoes, than to restrict the grid to those who are willing to open their wallets very early on if they wish to indulge in more than just standing around in a 3d chatroom.

I will yet again throw the word elitist in, and the reason being the same people I see claiming NPIOF accounts are the ruination of business are the people I have seen in the past accusing NPIOF of being resource hogs, blaming them for the grid overload issues of yore, and generally treating them as some great unwashed that should be neither seen nor heard. The analogy I drew in my previous post applies once more, and this using NPIOF as scapegoats for the all the ills of SL is a truly unnerving reflection of society as a whole.

But it is about taking the ability away from people, as opposed to not giving it them. The two might seem the same at face value, but are very different.

There are many who create who are not premium, I am sometimes one myself (although I would never consider my work anything like as skilled as that produced by countless others). Just because some of those who either can't or won't fund LL the cost of a premium account have sinister motives of IP theft at heart surely doesn't mean those who genuinely contribute to the grid should be penalised? Not to mention the many great creators who can't or won't pay for the privilege of creating, and who will take their skills elsewhere, to the detriment of SL.

Umm I don't live in "the land of the free" or "the land of the oppressed" or "land of the giants" or "land of the lost".

How would you feel if you are a plumber who did their trade follows the plumbing codes but has to compete against people who aren't qualified and don't follow the state codes and are free to advertise their businesses commpeting against yours?

Better yet you invent a basket making machine after months of design & research and some guy walks into your shop takes a heap of photo's of it as they are free to do so then sets up a business making cheap copies with slave labour and inferior materials at 1/4 the price with your designs name on it and people ring you up complaining when they break 2 years later. And the general market views your product as cheap an d nasty crap.

There is a saying that goes, "there is no honor among thieves". Someone who develops a malicious viewer based on GPL'd code, puts it up for sale, and does the *one* honorable thing by making the source code available risks getting his sales undercut by someone with even less honor who effectively steals the code, makes a few minor modifications, and sells it for less. Anyone who would use one of these viewers is not going to give a rat's ass about its developer.

For starters I' be wondering how the hell a plumbing job would pay the travel across the Atlantic every callout, but I digress.

Not all jobs require certification to operate. If I make fridge magnets, for example, I am providing something far less risky than a pressurised hot water installation, or ring main rewiring. You do understand the theory of licensing and certification is a health and safety issue, and not a permit for work in general. As there is little if anything that may risk my life and limb in SL, your hypothetical American plumber is a poor analogy. Far better would be if I were a self employed dressmaker, and I struggle to believe even in any country that is made of states, there is a state regulatory body which requires mandatory registration to stitch bits of fabric together.



I would be incredibly annoyed. Chances are I would pursue legal action to stop this person. In fact, as I alluded to, I am currently involved of sorts in an RL IP theft issue, where someone has stolen and is using IP without consent. But the difference between wishing to stop someone using my designs, and wishing the government prevented anyone from creating at all without a permit is so vast as to be a ludicrous argument. And what you and others seem to be claiming in SL is the equivalent, prevention of theft by prevention of the means to create. It's more akin to denying anyone who is not teetotal a driving license, as there are the few who combine excess alcohol and motorised transport.

The more I think about this, the more I see it as a symptom of the pox that infests our society. Instead of simply upholding the laws we already have in place, new, poorly thought out and woefully implemented ones are brought in, to appease the masses. SL has a system whereby thieves can and are punished, without having to penalise the innocent in the process. If LL took account suspensions and bans to an IP level, and if the reporting of content theft was properly dealt with at all levels (including residents reporting instances in the first place) then there would be no need for draconian restrictions on those who do nothing wrong. But "we" want to see LL doing something, and LL will eventually cave into this pressure and want to be seen doing something, and simply making use of existing policy is never the crowd pleaser that shiny new policy is.

If the "No payment, no creation" mob get their way, I can't wait to see how long before those that choose to stick around start bemoaning a lack of diverse and original new content.

How would you like to be unable to replace your own toilet because you weren't a licensed plumber?

Except there's no inferior materials, no slave labor, and nothing breaks two years later in SL.

Oh gonads, that's a far better and more concise way of putting it than I managed!

Not a problem as it's a really messy job and, I'd probably stuff it up anyway

You live in a country that doesn't allow plumbers to live there orforbids plumbers to work locally?
Most users don't make or sell content, they just buy stuff and socialise, they wouldn't care unless it interfered with all the cheap stolen stuff available to them.

Rather than trying to draw analogies with basket-making devices or home plumbing, let's try to consider an almost exact RL parallel.

Here in the UK, we have a problem with people making pirate copies of DVDs and CDs they've bought and then selling the results at car boot sales (the greatest boon to the criminal classes since the invention of the jemmy, to my mind, though eBay runs them a close second). Quite apart from any civil action they may face from they copyright holders, they are also quite likely committing one or more criminal offences http://www.ipo.gov.uk/pro-policy/pro-crime/pro-crime-resources/pro-crime-resources-offenceguide.htm .

What state regulation or licencing do people say we should have concerning the purchase of DVD copying equipment and software?

ETA Better add colour printers to the list of things we might need to regulate, since these are certainly used in the production of fake covers for the fake products.

As many calls as our company gets from people trying to replace their fixtures i wish they would make you have to have a license lol

Just picking nits here, but - yes, they do. If you have no available credit on that card, then it will fail, and the information you tried to put on file will be rejected. It's not an actual charge per se, but LL does ping the account for a dollar to verify the information is valid.

I was trying to facetiously point out I don't live even on the same continent as that which is made of varying "states".



Nearly every user I've met has at least tried their hand in building something, even if it's just the small feeling of achievement at rezzing a cube and making it purple. Some have gone on to make all sorts of things, not everything has been exactly well made or tasteful, but that's another discussion altogether.

I know my reasons for signing up to SL, and I also know they had nothing to do with creating content. However, I found myself wanting somewhere to call my own, and faced the choice of buying something off the shelf, or making something myself. I far preferred to challenge myself and create my own home. One day, if I finish it, I may even sell copies. I am not a premium member, and if I had had to get special permission to create then I wouldn't be around now. I can't see I am alone in feeling this way.



I know someone who buys them too - He thinks he's getting a bargain at a fiver a time (for ones in paper slip cases FFS)...



Quite. I don't know if it applies to blank discs, but I seem to recall there's a "copy tax" on blank tapes for this very reason. I've also heard Canada has an extra duty on blank discs to pay whatever their "artists rights" body is.

An elite automatically implies a group that you can't easily join (if at all) which simply isn't the case here. Any NPIOF account chose and continually chooses to be NPIOF rather than PIOF/PIU.

The example of one of those "financial crisis pay-whatever-amount-you-feel like" restaurants fits in well: it would be very hard to argue that paying at least what you think the expense of the food is isn't the moral and decent thing to do.

Some people may *genuinely* be on a tight budget and in those cases few people are going to condemn them for having dinner there and paying under the price as long as they make a worthwhile attempt. Whatever money the restaurant looses is made up by people who tip handsomely so everyone's happy.

On the other hand if someone walks in and just fills up their plate, eats it and walks out without paying because "it's not worth paying for" but does come back day after day after day after day then they are going to be labelled a "freeloader" because it's exactly what they are. They can pay but choose not to simply because they don't have to and in the end just end up abusing the whole business out of misplaced entitlement.

And it's not just one person, but more and more until the restaurant becomes filled with more non-paying diners than there are paying customers who are now having to a multiple of what they should to accomodate the costs of the freeloaders.

There is nothing wrong with a society that calls out people who are blatantly misusing/abusing a system and refuse to be contributing members of that society but would rather exploit it for their own selfishness.

NPIOF accounts are a good idea to give people a taste of SL and I personally could care less if people who truly (and there are only a handful of those) can not get verified stay NPIOF for their entire time on SL; or people who genuinely are short on money and truly can't afford to spend money on a virtual world.

But that's simply not the case. People who are perfectly capable of putting in payment information or paying for what their account is costing LL *choose* not to do so because they "don't have to". And just like any normal person would condemn the behaviour in the example, people will condemn residents who flat out refuse to even make the smallest insignficant little gesture that they want to be a real part of the community which in SL means identifying yourself to LL.

Except of course the people who are refusing to pay the costs of their account, or want to use the anominity to their own advantage because the current system suits them just fine. And unless you're part of that crowd all it takes to see who's acting like they're superior is only some social mingling away: while I've never (or rarely enough that it doesn't stick) seen a verified/paid account boast about how much better they are to an actual person (this thread is different because all of us are arguing groups and not specific individuals) I've seen and keep seeing NPIOFs gloat about how they're not paying for a thing, how they're never going to pay for anything and how they're superior because they're not "retarted" enough to pay $ for SL.

When I was a Live Helper I never did care whether an account was verified/unverified but over months and months it was always the NPIOFs who were verbally abusive when their camp pad didn't pay out that L$5 it owed them and how they were going to sue LL because they were defrauded, etc etc; while sim owners with sims that were offline for days at a time and people who just lost land to a landbot or were scammed by a landlord were obviously not happy but at least dealt with you like a person.

I personally don't feel entitled to pretty much anything on SL. If LL wants to eliminate building across the board for *all* accounts except those who jump through crazy hoops that I don't want to jump through then I'll be annoyed but make do or jump through the hoops anyway. If you feel differently and feel like LL somehow *owes* it to you to provide you with X then maybe you should rexamine just who is acting elitist.

They won't, Linden Lab has no compelling reason to go down that road.

:0 you know that's interesting - i'd never thought of that problem/dilemma before. :\ if say i got word that my wears were circulating illegally in teengrid - how could i possibly prosecute that without breaking the law (or at least the lab rules against adults on tg)? or vice-versa?? :\ that's actually an extremely good question that, on first blush, i know of no solution. :\ (i would not prosecute a filing if i could not personally vouch'n'verify the infringement myself so...) /me adds that to her notes...

OK, change "elitist" for "snobbery". Because however much you claim that isn't the case with the individuals you've met, it is certainly the theme running through many posters opinions on this thread.



I see it more as the difference between eating in the restaurant, and ordering take out from the counter next door. Those that can afford the extra get to sit in a warm dry well lit nicely laid out room, and not have to worry about the dishes. Those on a tighter budget have the joy of the food, but none of the extra benefits.

And there are plenty who cannot afford, or at least cannot justify, paying for a premium membership. These same people are helping keep the grid from being an empty lonely place, as well as sometimes being genuine creators. If the grid is as overrun with these "freeloaders" as is suggested, then it's no wonder you met many with bad attitudes - It's not because those with no money have no manners, it's because statistically you're bound to run into more aholes who aren't premium if the majority of users aren't premium to start with.

Why not, if mobility between the classes is by the members' own choice?


Huh. It's sure as h*** a problem for amateur writers. Few things like plagiarism that can cause as much emotional upset for the creators, as much outpouring of outrage and sympathy from end users/readers, and as much vicious and savage scorn heaped on the heads of the perps. Among most writing communities I've been in, plagiarists are considered just slightly above pedophiles.


I specifically said I was referring to a new type of account, not premium membership but something with a minimal one-time payment. Linden Lab is a company, and they're offering a service that costs money to run. If someone thinks they're entitled to all the benefits of that service without putting in even a one-time $5, then, yeah, let them go elsewhere; I won't miss them. I see no evidence that the numbers of "great creators" who would go elsewhere rather than pay $5 is higher than the numbers of creators we hear about regularly who are either leaving SL or creating less and less because of content theft.

I've spent most of the last two weekends building with an alt account that was NPIOF until yesterday, when I needed to buy a component for her skybox. If there had been a $5 fee before she could build, I'd have either paid it without hesitation or logged in as my premium account and done the building there, because I understand that being in SL is NOT an entitlement. If I'm going to draw, I expect to buy pencils. If I'm going to write, I expect to buy notebooks. Why should any artist, regardless of the medium, expect to have other people pay for their raw sources on the chance that the artist MIGHT produce something of value to the community?

I'll say again, it's not preventing anyone from doing anything. It's putting up a small barrier asking them to prove their good faith commitment to being part of the world. And it's not even an artificial barrier, like business licenses are, since none of us would have access to the world if LL hadn't chosen to give us that opportunity.

You don't and shouldn't need a license to fix your own toilet. But you also can't walk into the home improvements store and walk out with the tools and materials to fix your toilet without having to pay for them.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter whether that payment is in money or information; I do agree that LL is more likely to require information than money, though I think that's a poor business decision on their part. I am interested in how the Enterprise Marketplace is going to work out, and how many creators we're going to see choose to do business only in the Enterprise Marketplace and not on the Main Grid.

Soapbox

FFS! It's couldN'T care less, unless of course you're stating you do care! Does nobody nowadays realise how absurd and self defeating the loss of the n't makes this statement!?

/Soapbox



I feel LL "owe" it to me, or more accurately, are obliged, to provide the service I agreed to when entering the contract with them. That they chose not to require a payment or further personal information from me is not my fault, and I should not retroactively be penalised for that. I feel exactly the same way over the Zindra issue - Aside from the sanity of the new policy, the way premium, land owning members were treated is appalling. Those who held mature land did so on the basis they could do with it as they so wished, yet the only ones eligible for a parcel exchange were "adult" businesses. This was wrong, anyone who requested should have been given a land swap because their original agreement was made with an understanding that is no longer valid.

Now, if (as I believe Argent has suggested), LL removed the option to create content for all *new* basic accounts, then much as I feel that would be counter productive for encouraging new builders with fresh ideas, I would have less of an issue. Although I don't see how this would alter the very real feeling of "entitlement through wealth" that you may not believe exists, but to me seems very real and apparent.

The hand wringing of certain residents, who vary from wanting all creators to be premium to those who want all creators to at the very least have handed over some cash for the right to click the build button, suggests LL might find themselves with a compelling reason. Not to mention Stroker's fondness for court action.

(previous post in multiple chunks as the damned stupid forum software wouldn't let me do it in one go for some reason)

Except that the takeout eaters are getting their food free and leaving their trash in the dining room and the restaurant is passing the costs in both ingredients and time on to the eat-in diners.


The contract you agreed to included the term that the contract could be changed whenever LL wanted in whatever way they wanted. So changing the terms would not be violating that contract and they are not obliged to give you anything. I will grant that there is a moral if not legal obligation when the contract is mutual (LL gives us services, we give them money or information or volunteer work or whatnot). But when the "contract" consists of "I'll deign to let LL serve me at their own cost but I won't give them anything in return", well, I don't see much moral obligation on LL's part.