Furry ban in Cologne cathedral

Nowadays, people are too damn sensitive about everything. Everyone has to be "Politically correct" or you're labeled as being a racist or a left winger. Pleaseeee!!!

Call it as you see it. Don't try to say things you think everyone wants to see, no matter who it deals it. Just as in rl, if you don't like something or someone then fine, it's your choice. Just because they don't want furries in this place means nothing. It's their place, it's their choice and no one can say squat, no matter if it's furries or gays or anyone else.

So many fake and phony people going around saying what everyone wants to hear is worse then just coming out and saying what you truly think. You don't like a certain group then you don't, so what?

As far as furries, I don't care one way or the other as I don't deal with them in sl as it is. And if I had a place and I happened not to like them, I would do just as the church in sl is doing. My place, my choice. And this goes for any other group too. It's that simple.

Oh really? So they can post big signs saying "WHITES ONLY"? What a triumph of liberty, that!

Sometimes something is just "correct" even if it also happens to be Politically Correct.

If they posted a sign "Whites only" people would be able to complain about it.

Just like the are able to complain about "No furries."

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the differednce of course is "Whites only" is against LL's intolerance provisions in the Community Standards.

While "No Furries" isnt.
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Im very interested on whether those who are 100% for land owners right to choose feel that people should be allowed to complain?

Of course subject to being banend from the sim, etc.

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Of course a land owners rights in SL is not absolute - but they are pretty strong

Just like the ability to excercise free speech isnt absolute - but its pretty strong.



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I do doubt if furries existed in the real world, that they would be excluded from entering a church.

Compare it to a dress code? fine.

Walk into a church dressed in shabby clothing - most will still let you in.

Heartbreaking, ridiculous and sad.

My final word on this subject follows.
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AVATAR RIGHTS:

We (the sim owner and the estate managers of Caledon sims) attempt to recognise the inherent worth and dignity of everyone, and view all as equal. Therefore we establish the following principles:

I) Anonymity.

- Never shall an avatar be required to reveal ‘first life’ information about themselves.


II) Freedom from Discrimination.

- No discrimination will be based upon an avatar’s (or operator’s) ethnicity, gender, religion, or sexual orientation, either real or apparent. If your avatar is furry, mechanical or otherwise, you have the same rights and privileges as everyone else.

- Reasonable limits apply, regarding the use of an avatar’s form to cause technical problems, harassment or grief within the State of Caledon.


III) Freedom of Speech.

- An avatar may express ideas and opinions without fear of retribution.
- Please note that slander, libel, hate speech (racial, ethnic or gender slurs), scamming, fraud, harassment &c. are not considered free speech and thus not protected.

- Protests are protected speech. The time, place and manner of a protest may be limited in a reasonable, nondiscriminatory manner so as to protect other avatar’s rights.

- Methodic, active attempts to lure residents or visitors away from the State of Caledon while on our shores is considered High Treason: a betrayal of the trust that allows you to remain. Heavily promoting a foreign region is an issue; a modestly offered landmark to an offshore store in your home or shop is not.


IV) Liberty.

- Caledon recognises personal responsibility for personal actions, regardless of declared status or interpersonal relation. All are considered free to the State of Caledon, bearing both the right and responsibility of Liberty.


V) Domestic Association.

- Interpersonal associations such as avatar partnerings are not the business of the State of Caledon, and no discrimination or restrictions shall be placed on such.


VI) Freedom from Blacklist.

- The State of Caledon will not use lists distributed by other parties or agencies to take action against avatars, especially global or automatic ‘ban lists’.

- An avatar banned elsewhere will never find themselves banned here simply because they were ‘on a list’. We may, however, take reasonable precaution to protect ourselves should we hear reports of individual griefers of great harm and high notoriety.


VII) Freedom of Association.

- The State of Caledon will not act against groups categorically due to the actions of a minority of its members, unless the group’s stated raison d’etre is to cause harm.

VI) Freedom from Asset Seizure by Offshore Groups or Individuals.

- Neither land, nor property, nor business of an avatar will be subject to seizure based upon charges brought before the State of Caledon by other parties.


IX) Freedom from Unwarranted Search.

- No property will be searched by agents of the State of Caledon without prior, reasonable cause to believe that something not allowed is present. Improper search would constitute methodic inspection of structures or areas for the purpose of discovering contraband.


X) Rights of the Accused.

- Regarding actions to be, or that have been taken against an avatar by the State of Caledon, the avatar has a right to know why within a reasonable period of time. No punishment will be cruel or unusual, such as: a lifetime ban for casual littering. If anyone wishes to dispute a ban or restriction, they may do so by contacting a State of Caledon representative.

- Please note that we are not constitutional rights experts, this may be an imperfect document, and we may not make perfect decisions every time. But we promise to try to do things right in good faith.

There is no discriminatory intent, but people sure as hell are imputing one. These people are applying RL rules to SL and too many are going overboard about it. In RL, a furry wears a costume. There are no talking animals! So the fact that a furry avatar is not considered an organic being is a no-brainer! But NOOOOO, it's religious, therefore we must hate them, hate them bc they aren't a free-for-all!

Some of you are just looking for a reason to hate on a religious organization and paint it as some discriminatory thing when the intent is not there at all.

While others are looking to excuse any bad behavior with false analogies and wild accusations.

As much as you might want to be able to play the religious martyr card, this isn't an issue that has much to do with religion - as past forum history indicates. The religious aspect simply makes it more disappointing.

but people can fly and teleport in rl, right?

Who's got the martyrdom complex here? Sounds like the furries that refuse to see that this time it it not some "furries are evil" scheme, but rl rules of decorum that are being applied to SL.

This isn't "bad behavior" except for those who condemn first.

lol. I wish. I'd never be late for work!!

One of my joys in Second Life is that people are usually accepted for who they are or who they choose to be. I believe it could help to unify people and make them more accepting in general.

One of the most blatant examples of SL bigotry I've seen is the very popular gay club, Devilinside. In front of the club is a sign stating no women, no furries, no trannies. As a gay man it makes me very sad that the most restrictive place in SL is a gay club. I use to go there and have a good time, but felt I couldn't support them anymore. How do I explain to my trannie friends I frequent a club that they are excluded from?

So now we have the Catholic church creating division. That's no surprise to me. Funny how a gay club and the catholic church are guilty of the same sin in my eyes.

Well you could argue acussing Furries of "masquerading" becuase of their appearance is a bit judgemental.

I still think that the sim owners have every right to deny furries.

Just that Furries also have a right to complain about it.

If the reasons made more sense - Many posters here are giving better reasons than the Sim owners did - then less people would feel apt to complain.

Not that they HAVE to give a reason - but peopel are more likely to gruble if no reason is given.


For example - Gor was thrown about a few times in the thread.

Gor is specific in its reasons .. It doesnt allow avatars that dont appear human. It is against the concept of their RP. Furries simply dont exist on Gor.

Bad behavior is in the eye of the beholder. Nobody is saying that sim owners don't have a right to make whatever abstract rule they want - but not every abstract rule is a good rule, just like not everything you have a right to do in RL is good.

I hate to use this analogy because it's very... drama-queenish, but if people believed the only bad behavior was to condemn laws others had a "right" to make, there would still be "white only" drinking fountains.

Theres nothing wrong with speaking out against something you think is unjust, unfair, or needlessly discriminatory. The manner in which you do so can be questionable, perhaps, but the act itself is not.

It's no suprise this is causing a bit more than the usual stir, what with religion being involved. Folks have this odd attitude that religion of any stripe deserves unquestioned respect in all things.

It deserves repeating that all that's really going on here is a group was singled out for exclusion (wigh the sim owners have the right to do in this case) and that group is complaining about it (which they have the right to do). Not all that remarkable.

My god doesn't care if somebody is furry, as long as they're good folks. Y'all are welcome in my home, you cute little furballs.


Sophistry.

this thread wins the silly award

furries are fantasy make believe creatures from story books and people are trying to say that they have a right to go to a pixelated replica as a cathedral due to the fact that as a story book character they have "rights".

think about that for awhile and then tell me why this is even an issue? lol

truly stand back and look at this and tell me that this is worth going to media about protesting about and making some poor sim owners life miserable and carrying on like this

I mean i'm all for having a virtual life and identifying with it but your causing grief to a small group of people who's only wish was to build what they thought was an authentic replica to something and make it look like it would in real world

I have yet to go into a church anywhere and see a line of furries simply because they are make believe creaturs found in fairy tales.

guy pays money to buy a sim lots of it plus a monthly rental fee which entitles him to invite whom he wants to populate his place in a manner which he chooses. If he feels furries are not right to stand around what he considers a reproduction great work art and symbolism can't he just well

nevermind i'm guessing its the long weekend and people want to stir stuff up so what better way then to protest on a sim with an expensive build taking up his bandwidth and time and taking his enjoyment of his work away from him by demanding that a recreation of a story book character has a right to be present in the manner they choose and give him a hard time about it

If you want to see it go get a freebie skin that fits the requirements of the sim and go visit otherwise don't

put into perspective that you are in fact playing a character only found in fiction which likely the vatican never heard of and have some common sense to realize that time and effort and money was put into this and leave the poor guys alone

this is truly sad and abusive and I hope it doesn't result in people going totally ntus and crashing his sim or something

Brought upon by themselves being a church that has a history of prejudice.

Ok, as one who was a Christan and now leans more to being a Buhdist, and being a Robot, Cartoon character & Furry, I would like to say I am a little dissapointed in this Churches views. and people should remember all religous denomitations have branches they don't necessarily do things the way the mainstream does.

in the end it's their Church, perhaps they want it to be as RL as possible to make their people more comfortable and create a serious RL atmosphere to their Church much like a Wild West Roleplay sim may not appreciate Cylon Warriors joining in.

Just want to say my earlier posts were late at night and reactionary and it would have probably been better for me to post nothing at all.

So I'll just say, imo I think the ban on furries is misguided.

QFT!
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I also do not understand the logic in dictating to someone what they can do on the sim they paid for.

No. In this light furry, or any other avatar in SL is simply what a person chooses to be represented as here. No more than a forum icon, if you will.

The "Rights" of the avatar come from the fact that anyone should be free to explore SL while maintaining their choice of avatar representation.



Then you should go to the chuches here in SL. There are quite a few, and there are usually an asortment of avatars there ranging from furries, to human, to robot, to ones I simply can not describe. In the cases I've seen, those wishing to enlighten others to their religion simply did not seem to care what apparence the masses had. They apparently only looked at it as a chance to spread their word of their god.



Yes, it is their right to do this. No one is saying otherwise. What we are saying is that THEY do not have that "perspective" you speak of, and refuse to see that avatars are emphemeral. They come in, they look around, and they leave.

The people who built the thing should be proud to show it off, no matter what the avatar of the person looking at it looks like.

The chuch should be happy to have anyone of any appareance come to take in the ambiance, and perhaps the chance to enlighten some to their religion.

The "religion" aspect only comes into play in this case, because what is going on here is counter to the core ideals of ANY religion. That is providing a place a whorship AND a place to attach others not of the faith so as to be able to enlighten them to said faith.

How can one spread the faith when one refuses to even let them in the door?

If the Vatican backs this ideal, then they should be ashamed of themselves. How you, I, or anyone else looks at it is irrelivant. When dealing with a religion, one should always as how their god would look at it. In this case, do you think He would be happy seeing people turned away fromt he church simple for thier online pixelated representation?

~Jessy

Welcome to SecondLife.

"Their sim, their rules."

They can ban or allow whoever they want.

Maybe the rules are purely for aesthetic reasons? As far as I'm aware they have no restrictions on certain other groups......

churches in the uk are finding attendances are droping. Wonder why?


So much I would like to say on this subject.
Just biting my lip.

I was inclined to let this slide before, but this is really an obscene display of privilege. If the only place one is "wanted" is the back of the bus, one might have a rather different perspective. I'm sure it's inconvenient for pretty straight white folk that the rest of us get all uppity when we're told we should learn our place.

And what is it with this repeated strawman about "dictating" anything to anybody about what they can do on their sim? Nobody is saying that in this case. I hope it's not too disturbing to hear folks *criticize* what they're doing.

But on that subject: just because somebody pays some tier doesn't mean they can do whatever they want on their sim--and really, this instance pushes right up to the edge of Community Standards mandating tolerance: substitute for "furry" a class with a history of RL discrimination, and the discriminating group couldn't pay LL enough to get an ad plot.

Some liberties can't be bought-off for US$295/mo.

QFT. If the sign said "No blacks!" instead of "No furries!" you can bet that LL would smack them around with the TOS in a heartbeat.