Age verification enters Grid-wide beta
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Cherry Czervik
Came To Her Senses
Join date: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 3,680
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12-06-2007 09:11
From: Rigrunner Rang So umm...What databases are they checking against for info of people in the UK?
Ooooh I can see a lot of data protection lawsuits coming up against LL and Aristotle in the near future !
Nice attempt to tackle the problem but seriously worrying knowing a third party is handling such confidential information for an online game...
Considering all the offline IMs i recieved yesterday were telling people people's full names and email addresses (bug reported lol), I have to say I'm not too confident I could ever trust LL or their partners with any further personal information about myself.
It'd be interesting to see what a subject access request on Aristotle would bring up.... Easy done. Pay Aristotle some money. |
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Mickey McLuhan
She of the SwissArmy Tail
Join date: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 1,032
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12-06-2007 09:23
Just for the record, mark me as one that was able to do it with a non-US Driver's Licence.
Easy as pie.
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Where there's smoke, there isn't always fire. It might just be a particle display. 
-Mari-
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Isabeau Imako
P'tite Poulette
Join date: 13 Sep 2007
Posts: 2,335
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12-06-2007 09:23
Of course, you can always find information about people on the net, but look at it this way. Having an alarm system on your car doesn't guaranty your car from being stolen, but thieves usually go for the car that has its doors unlocked. To each his own, I'm not giving out any info (SIN) to anyone. If ever this becomes mandatory, I have other hobbies, lol.
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Mickey McLuhan
She of the SwissArmy Tail
Join date: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 1,032
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12-06-2007 09:26
From: Isabeau Imako I'm not giving out any info (SIN) to anyone. If ever this becomes mandatory, I have other hobbies, lol. No one's forcing you... it is just as doable with a driver's licence. And no one's said that it will be mandatory. No one who isn't speaking from opinion and conjecture, anyway.
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Where there's smoke, there isn't always fire. It might just be a particle display.
-Mari-
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robertltux McCallen
Registered User
Join date: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 50
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And this is why i have a "furry" av
12-06-2007 09:42
between the fact there is a need for this kind of thing and the circus around the setup
it makes me want to not be a "person" but anywho a few thoughts
1 this kind of thing is in fact needed
2 yeah the framework won't start out correct for a lot of cases (lets get the US cases done and then bring in the UK and EU)
3 the datamining thing live with it but Linden will have to live with the security issues (I propose 30% of the fines be paid to the resident (in lindens) effected and 3 months free)
4 those playing the 1984 card would you rather LL start derezzing any and all mature content?
(in forfeit mode)
5 the don't verify/ don't mark group: please make sure your stuff is not eligable either
(im me if you need netspace to host vids)
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Isabeau Imako
P'tite Poulette
Join date: 13 Sep 2007
Posts: 2,335
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12-06-2007 09:45
From: Mickey McLuhan No one's forcing you... it is just as doable with a driver's licence.
And no one's said that it will be mandatory. No one who isn't speaking from opinion and conjecture, anyway. /me waves at the scooby-dooish, Winking Eyeball  I'm also certain this will never be mandatory, maybe this is why I'm not too worried about it. (and I unfortunately do not have a DL and my passport has expired-call me a cheapskate but I'm not paying almost 100$ until I need it again to travel, heheh) I just think people are far too trusting with their personal information. Or, perhaps I am not trusting enough... |
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Hypatia Callisto
metadea
Join date: 8 Feb 2006
Posts: 793
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12-06-2007 09:46
From: Mickey McLuhan No one's forcing you... it is just as doable with a driver's licence.
And no one's said that it will be mandatory. No one who isn't speaking from opinion and conjecture, anyway. some of us don't have a driver's license. I happen to not need one - no car.
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... perhaps simplicity is complicated to grasp.
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Okiphia Rayna
DemonEye Benefactor
Join date: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 2,103
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12-06-2007 09:48
From: Hypatia Callisto some of us don't have a driver's license. I happen to not need one - no car. no ID of any kind?
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Owner of DemonEye Designs Custom Building and Landscaping Owner and Blogger, Okiphia's Life http://okiphiablog.blogspot.com/ 
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Isabeau Imako
P'tite Poulette
Join date: 13 Sep 2007
Posts: 2,335
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12-06-2007 09:50
From: Hypatia Callisto some of us don't have a driver's license. I happen to not need one - no car. I know what you mean. Maybe it has to do with where you live, but I'm always surprised when people say to me, "What! You don't have a DL?!!" Euh, no. Neither do I have, or need a car... lol |
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Amity Slade
Registered User
Join date: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 2,183
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12-06-2007 10:00
From: Hypatia Callisto some of us don't have a driver's license. I happen to not need one - no car. This is why, in the USA, lawmakers are hot on the idea of requiring some sort of mandatory national identification card. If you are anonymous, it is more difficult for you to be controlled. That's a central idea behind Foucault's work on modern prisons. Watching people all the time is a more efficient way of controlling them than using brute force. |
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White Hyacinth
Registered User
Join date: 15 Nov 2006
Posts: 353
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12-06-2007 10:14
From: Nika Talaj THis is my experience of Aristotle; the first time they encounter a person, the verification simply fails until they update their database with newly verified info for that person. That is probably a big reason for this extended beta ... so that Aristotle can verify and add all the gathered info to their learning database.
This makes sense. I have always wondered how this company could have info on all 6,000,000,000 earthlings on file. They don't! WE are the suckers filling their database! (If we are stupid enough to do business with them...) |
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Alyx Sands
Mental Mentor Linguist
Join date: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 2,432
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12-06-2007 10:35
Germans have had ID cards ("Personalausweis", basically a passport card - see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personalausweis where you can see a pic of one) for decades and it's just like having a passport. No one here understands the fuss people make about introducing ID cards in other countries...most people don't even understand the difference between a passport and an ID card.
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~~I'm a linguist. RL sucks, but right now it's decided to be a little less nasty to me - you can still be nice to me if you want! ~~
->Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis.<-
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Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
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12-06-2007 11:13
From: robertltux McCallen
4 those playing the 1984 card would you rather LL start derezzing any and all mature content?
(in forfeit mode)
All they had to do was ask us if they could share our name, address and date of birth with integrity and then ask us to carry out a credit card transaction with Integrity. That leaves a paper trail back to the person whose details are being verified. Integrity have access to public databases like electoral registers to confirm the cardholder is over 18. They do not have access to the UK Passport database and asking for information that is not fit for purpose is quite clearly a suspicious move. As others have pointed out, Integrity with all the extra information that they can't officially verify, put themselves in a strong position but there's nothing to stop someone else verifying with your details and you won't know about it as you don't receive a paper trail regarding this process. |
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Hypatia Callisto
metadea
Join date: 8 Feb 2006
Posts: 793
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12-06-2007 11:17
From: Amity Slade This is why, in the USA, lawmakers are hot on the idea of requiring some sort of mandatory national identification card. If you are anonymous, it is more difficult for you to be controlled. That's a central idea behind Foucault's work on modern prisons. Watching people all the time is a more efficient way of controlling them than using brute force. I do however have a passport Which LL doesn't want to accept as proof of ID, without a utility bill I cannot provide. The utility bill is only useful in the UK - not needed in Germany.
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... perhaps simplicity is complicated to grasp.
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Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
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12-06-2007 11:18
They're not selling your driving licence number. They're selling your name and address. Integrity are asking for something they don't have authority to check. |
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Nicola Samiam
xoxox
Join date: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 142
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12-06-2007 11:19
Well, I don't have a driving licence either, but I do have a passport.
Which I've just tried on the age verification thingy.
Which didn't work!
And the workaround on the Support Portal? - Send in scanned copies of your passport, a bill etc.....
Scanned copies!
So much for "we will keep your information private. It is only used to verify age".
And all the underage kids will be now entering the details of their parents' US Drivers licenses, won't they?
So age verification proves...absolutely....nothing!
It's so typical of LL to introduce a broken system.
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Void Singer
Int vSelf = Sing(void);
Join date: 24 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,973
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12-06-2007 11:25
From: Chris Norse Then don't break the law. You can still come to SL, you just can't access all of it's areas. Instead of bitching about SL, do something to change your laws. because we all know that one online companies silly decision warrant changing an entire countries laws..... o.0 From: robertltux McCallen 1 this kind of thing is in fact needed needed for what? legal protections can be gained and maintained with simpler methods that are already in place at a variety of online venues. when you stick your name address and age info in the fields and click "yes this is true/i agree to the TOS", if it wasn't true, you are legally commiting fraud, and violating TOS... at best this makes it slightly harder for identity theft purchases but realistically since it's a service, and not a product, identity theives aren't going to have much use for it now are they? no point skipping out on a bill if you don't get something for the trouble. as an update, *I* can't verify, (except manualy).... how's that for irony? aside: any US citizens find it funny that old SSN cards say "not valid for identification'? I guess they gave up putting that on there as my newer replacement card no longer has it, but it does still have "Improper use of this card or number by anyone is punishable by fine, imprisonment or both"... it's also funny that I haven't had I DL for years, and my BC say it's illegal to duplicate or transmit copies.... and all my bills except cable are in my roomates name... ah the joys of living the unconnected life.
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Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
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12-06-2007 11:27
From: Nicola Samiam
So age verification proves...absolutely....nothing!
People are looking at this from the wrong angle. This isn't about verifying age, it's about legal liabilities. The system implemented is so easy to defraud that as a means of keeping under 18's out it's laughable. However Integrity will carry the can for people who shouldn't have been verified in the first place, LL are washing their hands of that process. In terms of increasing trust and making access for minors harder this system fails miserably. This isn't about proving identity. |
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Nicola Samiam
xoxox
Join date: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 142
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12-06-2007 11:30
From: Ciaran Laval People are looking at this from the wrong angle. This isn't about verifying age, it's about legal liabilities. The system implemented is so easy to defraud that as a means of keeping under 18's out it's laughable.
However Integrity will carry the can for people who shouldn't have been verified in the first place, LL are washing their hands of that process.
In terms of increasing trust and making access for minors harder this system fails miserably.
This isn't about proving identity. Exactly! It doesn't prove anytthing. |
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Isabeau Imako
P'tite Poulette
Join date: 13 Sep 2007
Posts: 2,335
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12-06-2007 11:39
From: Ciaran Laval People are looking at this from the wrong angle. This isn't about verifying age, it's about legal liabilities. The system implemented is so easy to defraud that as a means of keeping under 18's out it's laughable.
However Integrity will carry the can for people who shouldn't have been verified in the first place, LL are washing their hands of that process.
In terms of increasing trust and making access for minors harder this system fails miserably.
This isn't about proving identity. Maybe people care less about the reasons behind this and more about the hassle it is for most. Since it isn't mandatory, I say to them, don't worry too much about it. |
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Jarred Tammas
Registered Something
Join date: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 87
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12-06-2007 11:50
It needs more work as it's full oh holes. Also there was an article on Integrity on the tube a couple of weeks ago about some questionable practices they were using.
Stick to the credit cards for verification as most minors can't get them.
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Jarred
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Rascal Ratelle
Registered User
Join date: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 62
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12-06-2007 12:00
The Following has NOT been addressed:
What is the garuntee that this third party will
respect the privacy laws and NOT store he info unless
requested?
Is LL Monitoring this third party? Why should we
entrust our privet info to a third party we know
nothing about?
What about security? how securer is this third party?
Who do we hold accountable if a security breach occurs
at the third party?
What about third party credentials?
I believe we have the Legal right to view those too.
What garuntees do we have against Identity theft?
I refuse to submit any of my privet info to The third
party until you guys address ALL my concerns and
questions regarding this issue.
I do NOT feel safe nor secure releasing my privet info
to a third party I know nothing about.
How much do free accounts have to pay? what about
those of us unable to get a credit card for what ever
reasons or can't access pay-pal?
Also it's illegal in some countries for an online virtual world to
require a users social security number for any reason.
Linden Labs WILL be held accountable for any problems that occurs as a result of ID theft, grid security breaches resulting in ID theft, Security Exploits resulting in ID theft,
Any problems that occurs with this third party in regards to out Privet info.
Until LL has publicly addressed these issues I REFUSE to submit any privet info or take part in LL's Age verification project. I simply do not feel my Privet info is safe nor has LL made any acceptable garuntees that it is truly safe.
Also it's illegal in some countries for an online virtual world to
require a users social security number for any reason.
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Amity Slade
Registered User
Join date: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 2,183
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12-06-2007 12:01
This is the way that Linden Labs is protecting itself from legal liability. Consider a situation in which a parent finds out that their minor child has been viewing all kinds of pornography on Second Life. The parent sues Second Life on the theory that Linden Labs negligently allowed the child to access pornography. Second Life has to be able to credibly respond that it did everything reasonably necessary to prevent a minor's access. To defeat a negligence argument, Linden Labs does not need to show that it has an absolutely perfect system of preventing access to adult material by minors. It just needs to show that it did the best that it could.
Plus, as someone else already suggested in this thread, Linden Labs's use of a third-party service to do some sort of age verification may be a requirement for it to acquire or maintain business or legal liability insurance. In that case, Linden Labs's main concern is just to satisfy its insurance carrier that it did what the carrier required.
Linden Labs's overriding goal is not to verify age. The overriding goal is to avoid losing a lot of money in a lawsuit.
Linden Labs may be hurting itself in the long run if the system it chooses causes it to lose a lot of users. But let's be honest, Linden Labs has a long history of antagonizing its Second Life customers, and despite vehement criticism from customers, ultimately nothing Linden Labs does to antagonize customers causes a mass exodus from Second Life.
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Alicia Sautereau
if (!social) hide;
Join date: 20 Feb 2007
Posts: 3,125
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12-06-2007 12:16
http://integrity.aristotle.com/content/view/251/122/From: someone "This is an important and necessary step in the development of Second Life," said Robin Harper, vice president of marketing and community development at Linden Lab. "Anonymity has long been both a benefit and a challenge for online communities: a benefit because it offers opportunities to reinvent yourself; a challenge when it comes to the creation of trusting relationships. With the option to verify aspects of their Real Life identity, such as age and name, Second Life Residents can begin to build trust and safety systems inside the virtual world and their virtual community." so now name is also added, what else? btw, check out this, this is 1 of the many things they do with YOUR data http://www.voterlistsonline.com/notice the words: search purchase and download they don`t keep what on file???
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Alicia Sautereau
if (!social) hide;
Join date: 20 Feb 2007
Posts: 3,125
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12-06-2007 12:20
http://www.aristotle.com/content/blogcategory/23/46/From: someone Building Your List – Mining Your Data
Aristotle pioneered the collection of voter lists in the United States and our resources are global. We have voter registries and telephone lists for dozens of countries – and if we don’t have the data you need, we know how to get it. Aristotle can enhance your campaign’s existing list with detailed demographic and consumer marketing data so voter contact programs are directed to the appropriate target groups. You know who your voters are. You know what you want to say. Aristotle can make sure you deliver the right message to the right people quickly and efficiently. nuff said...
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