Staying Home to watch the Inaguration?

I don't know about fallacious, since it's not falsifiable (by definition), but it's not a *useful* definition of supernatural.

In what post did you see me stating that Obama's use of 'non-believer,' as a category to cover everyone who is not Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or Hindu, was ideal or correct or admirable?

The laws of nature are only what we can observe, measure, experiment with, and understand. If it's not observable, then it's not a law of nature. If it's subject, even in principle, to the scientific method, it's natural. If not, then it's not. If you can devise a reproducible experiment that would demonstrate the existence of another realm, then we'll have to consider expanding the scope of nature. If not, then what you're dealing with is the supernatural. The ball is in your court to come up with an experiment.

Getting back to the "me" issue, an example of something that doesn't qualify as such an experiment is the "philosophical zombie". You can't demonstrate the existence of a separate consciousness by assuming that you can create a being indistinguishable from a human but lacking the thing you're trying to prove exists.

The issue is not of other realms, which may or may not be part of the beliefs. The issue is whether they are posited as following the rules of nature.

That is a different issue as to whether or not they exist. If the deity is a collective (worshiping Gaia/Greenman/Diana as an avatar of the complete web of natural being), the deity is not supernatural nor is it materialistic in nature, as one example that is fairly common.

As to the 'me' issue, no side of the argument has ever satisfactorily conducted an experiment that proves or disproves an existence.

So it ends up being, for the time being, a matter of belief. On all sides.

You seriously think that Obama doesn't know that there are other religious beliefs than these 4?

It's infinitely more likely that he was using these 5 categories as examples of the wide range of beliefs that exist. I really don't think he needed to bog the speech down with tedious explanations, lists, and clarifications to make this clear.

Why would you believe such a thing?

That said: there HAS been an observable widening of the categories in speeches of this kind. It would have been very unusual, 50 years ago, for any speaker referring to listeners to include those who don't adhere to a major established religion, since it was much more the assumption that virtually everyone adheres to one of the major established religions. So many of us found it interesting that Obama included 'non-believers' in his list, even if 'non-believers' isn't considered the ideal terminology in the context.

Well I wasn't sure - "In what post did you see me stating that Obama's use of 'non-believer,' as a category to cover everyone who is not Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or Hindu, was ideal or correct or admirable?" Seemed to me to imply that you DID agree that Obama used 'non-believer' as a category to cover everyone who is not Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or Hindu as well as agreeing that it was not correct or admirable for him to do so.



I thought this was a good point you made. As a former non-believer and now a Hindu believer myself, I haven't noticed many U.S. politicians acknowledging that either group exist in the U.S.

Wasn't Al Gore in tight with the Budhists at one time?

I think Michelle Obabma will make a lovely First Lady. I loved the yellow dress she wore yesterday.

Nice... so instead of them, now we have Barack Hussein Obama? I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the name of a despot we kicked out of power in his country, hunted down to a hole like a rat and turned him over to his former people who then ended up executing him after a fair trial?


And as far as trying to 'love our enemies'... I just don't think that will work. It's kinda like 1/6 of the world wants to either destroy the other 5/6 or make it like them. My biggest fear is that in order to make the planet a safe place, we, as not only a nation, but the entire free world, will have to take a page out of late-'30s/early-'40s Germany's playbook. It's a VERY scary thought, but if it had to be done... well, I'd support it.

Well I wasn't sure - "In what post did you see me stating that Obama's use of 'non-believer,' as a category to cover everyone who is not Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or Hindu, was ideal or correct or admirable?" Seemed to me to imply that you DID agree that Obama used 'non-believer' as a category to cover everyone who is not Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or Hindu as well as agreeing that it was not correct or admirable for him to do so.

Only as long as when they bowed they had checks in their hands.

Here, you've fairly stated what I said, more or less. (Though I thought in your earlier post you were advancing the idea [with your "You seriously think that Obama doesn't know that there are other religious beliefs than these 4? "] that I'd been claiming Obama was stupid or ill-informed. And of course, I hadn't been claiming that at all.)

Another poster seemed to have assumed that I'd applauded the specific term "non-believer", where in fact all I'd expressed or implied was approval of the acknowledgment that not everyone listening to the speech self-identifies as a member of a particular religion---not a judgment that the particular choice of terminology was the best choice possible.

So, with a bit of discussion, it's to be hoped that some of these things have been clarified. ^_^

Ah, Yen Buddhists.

I just hope the Dalai Lama isn't ticked off that Obama called him a non-believer.

(yet again I must give a)


((we really need a good Laughing smiley, here, instead of this merely-grinning one...))

I think Michelle Obabma will make a lovely First Lady. I loved the yellow dress she wore yesterday.

Read my sig.
(sig)
___________
Remember when the US made fun of those huge state pageants in North Korea, the Soviet Union and China, with millions assembled to hail the dear leader with religious and militaristic fervor?

You would like my husband. He happens to be a black man. Whaaa??? Did I actually say "black?" Yep, I sure did. If someone calls him African-American you will see the steam rise from his head. He will then inform them that he is not in Africa, he's never been to Africa, nor does he have any plans to ever go to Africa. He will then look you square in the eye and tell you he is an American, plain and simple.

God, I love him.

So has everbody oredered their Commemorative Obama Plate?

.... My biggest fear is that in order to make the planet a safe place, we, as not only a nation, but the entire free world, will have to take a page out of late-'30s/early-'40s Germany's playbook. It's a VERY scary thought, but if it had to be done... well, I'd support it.

I was emailed this- may or may not be as attributed- i didn't bother to look but i did like the sentiment and this seems and apt place to put it:


~~~~~~~~
Written by an Australian Dentist

To Kill an American
You probably missed this in the rush of news, but there was actually a report that someone in Pakistan had published in a newspaper, an offer of a reward to anyone who killed an American, any American.

So an Australian dentist wrote an editorial the following day to let everyone know what an American is . So they would know when they found one. (Good one, mate!!!!)

'An American is English, or French, or Italian, Irish, German, Spanish , Polish, Russian or Greek. An American may also be Canadian, Mexican, African, Indian, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Australian, Iranian, Asian, or Arab, or Pakistani or Afghan.

An American may also be a Comanche, Cherokee, Osage, Blackfoot, Navaho, Apache, Seminole or one of the many other tribes known as native Americans.

An American is Christian , or he could be Jewish, or Buddhist, or Muslim. In fact, there are more Muslims i n America than in Afghanistan.The only difference is that in America they are free to worship as each of them chooses.

An American is also free to believe in no religion. For that he will answer only to God, not to the government, or to armed thugs claiming to speak for the government and for God.

An American lives in the most prosperous land in the history of the world.
The root of that prosperity can be found in the Declaration of Independence , which recognizes the God given right of each person to the pursuit of happiness.

An American is generous. Americans have helped o ut just about every other nation in the world in their time of need, never asking a thing in return.


When Afghanistan was over-run by the Soviet army 20 years ago, Americans came with arms and supplies to enable the people to win back their country!


As of the morning of September 11, Americans had given more than any other nation to the poor in Afghanistan .
The national symbol of America , The Statue of Liberty , welcomes your tired and your poor, the wretched refuse of your teeming shores, the homeless, temp est tossed. These in fact are the people who built America


Some of them were working in the Twin Towers the morning of September 11 , 2001 earning a better life for their families. It's been told that the World Trade Center victims were from at least 30 different countries, cultures, and first languages, including those that aided and abetted the terrorists.
So you can try to kill an American if you must. Hitler did. So did General Tojo , and Stalin , and Mao Tse-Tung, and other blood-thirsty tyrants in the world. But, in doing so you would just be killing yourself . Because Americans are not a particular people from a particular place. They are the embodiment of the human spirit of freedom. Everyone who holds to that spirit, everywhere, is an American.