The planet on the other side of the sun.

... and John Norman was laughing all the way to the bank!

http://www.jedichurch.com/

Apply now ...

For anyone considering the Gorean ways in SL(they're quite different from RL) I would suggest doing your homework in SL..find out who the "keepers of knowledge" are and who generally owns the land that the Gor nation rests on.

I find it quite interesting that the ranks of the most prominent of Goreans in SL have slowly over the years been filled by female avatars.While the "male avatars" have been running around with their leashes collars and chains...alot of Female avatars have stepped up to carry the flame.

Alot more Mistresses..alot more "Free women" alot more female slaves...alot less Male avatar masters. Any ideas as to why this is?

~Lana Tomba

This got to be a joke...please tell me it is!

Maggie

"For anyone considering the Gorean ways in SL(they're quite different from RL) I would suggest doing your homework in SL..find out who the "keepers of knowledge" are and who generally owns the land that the Gor nation rests on.

I find it quite interesting that the ranks of the most prominent of Goreans in SL have slowly over the years been filled by female avatars.While the "male avatars" have been running around with their leashes collars and chains...alot of Female avatars have stepped up to carry the flame.

Alot more Mistresses..alot more "Free women" alot more female slaves...alot less Male avatar masters. Any ideas as to why this is?

~Lana Tomba
__________________
~Tragically Human~ "


Sure I have one. Most people in SL who actually live by Gor in RL dont play in sl about it. The Gor sims you go to are the ones who play. You wont see me or most of my Aquintances there playing. But then again those who live Gor dont need to come to SL to fulfill it. They live it in RL.

Don't you think its a bit inaccurate for a someone without the knowledge to come into SL and use the Glorious AR as a measuring stick for Gor RL then?

~Lana Tomba

Don't ever apologize. You need not as you don't need to give accountability for whatever language you do speak.

Many years ago I apologized to my then boss for some spelling mistakes in an English letter. The Gentlemen answered:

" As soon as my German is as good as your English I will have room for comment"

I always remember this, when somebody gets picky on my English and I just smile.

Maggie

I think it is inaccurate for anyone, to base their opinions on how another feels about somthing. Be it Gor or Chraitianity or Paganism or Satansim.

Should you wish to have an opinion, first learn what it is. Study and take part and if you decide it is not for you, then leave it alone.
Gor wasnt around for ever. Christianity wasnt either. Niether was democaracy. I am not saying Gor is a religion here folks. But every social structure has a start somewhere. Some one woke up one morning and said hey, I wonder if this will work. And John Norman wrote Gor down. That people chose to follow it was neither here nor there. The thing is some people said, you know what, that is how things should be. They used to be that way or they would work so uch better that way. For them they make it work that way. If you wish not to take part, dont work in a Gor run business, dont live in a Gor owned house and dont marry a Gor male. You can marry a Gor woman if you wish, but you better like a woman who tends her man and cares for him.

Its a Novel for Christ sake, Just like Harry Potter, Starwars, Robin Hood or whatever. How can one base your live on that? In rp in SL , fine. But in RL? How bizarre!

Loosing track of reality?

Maggie

well when i first started getting into Gor..it was via SL..I went to websites and did alot of reading..then i realised that what SL was offering as "a Gorean lifestyle" and what was described in John Normans writings were two different things.

This concerend me. I didn't want a watered down or lukewarm version of the original vision. ((Especially when the newer version seemed to accomodate those in power with financial gain))

~Lana Tomba

"Its a Novel for Christ sake, Just like Harry Potter, Starwars, Robin Hood or whatever. How can one base your live on that? In rp in SL , fine. But in RL? How bizarre!

Loosing track of reality?
"

And the bible is just a book. But more people in the world live their lives based off the words written within the bible than any other book. So John Norman is not a god, he is mearly an author, but his ideas in the book make sense to those who follow it.

Thanks for the info, Collette - I love the post about Gor sims being run by dirty old men =) Lana, I've read many of your posts here in the forums...you don't seem like a Gor type.

yea ..I do have the ability to 'think on my feet". I was attracted to the lifestyle because it spoke to my sexual psyche..prolly because in RL I have to be quite domineering and a control freak and when it comes to "play" i don't wanna have to mess with all that...I like to relax

However most misread me even in SL thinking I'm a mistress because of my dress and being outspoken(i don't really relish running around in silks ...i like clothes and boots and shoes too much )

But i'm definitely not a spokesperson for the lifestyle. I frequented Glorious Ar back in the day when i was fresh and unjaded. Been to a few arena and gladiator trials and really was taken in by the creativity that the residents displayed..thru combat systems..weapons..and even later down the road furniture and buildings. Their lifestyle as a whole isn't all about sex...its much much more.((prolly why I didn't stick around ))Not my niche

~Lana Tomba

See this is where I start to have issues with the whole thing.

Gor is fine if that's what interests you, and I'm more agnostic than anything else, so not particularly precious about the Bible or its interpretation.

But the argument that "Tarnsman of Gor" a paperback published in 1966 for profit (by the same author who wrote "Imaginative Sex" in 1974) is a "book" in the same way that the Bible is a "book".. well it's where everything falls to pieces...

The Gor books are fine as fantasy fiction (well they're not really but that's a whole different thread), but they ain't the Bible for many, many reasons.

To make such an argument not only calls your own sanity and intellect into question but by association that of the Gorean lifestyle and community at large.

Although I suppose in retrospect they do share a certain ethos... I mean they do both ask that at least some of their followers learn to "turn the other cheek".....

Actually you are right, the Novels of John Norman are nothing but Low pulp Sci-Fi, He was once Given an award in absentia by the B.C. Science Fiction Assosciation for the Worst disservice to the genre of sci-Fi for the year (The specific grounds for the award was "He Plagerizes himself).
I'm a Gor Lifestyler. I'm also a Lifelong Practicing Roman Catholic. Catholicism is the interpretation of ancient texts designed to guide one to a spiritual awakening, and is my religion. Gor on the other hand are works of Fiction presenting a set of precepts, and values i Do see Some Merit In. For example, The idea that a Woman Can be Strong, and Fiercely Independant Without sacrificing her femininity, Or Conversely, behaving like a Cheap Strumpet.

Now having said that, I DO have more than Two Books in my Life that have In some way Influenced my Personality, and Core Values. The writings of Mark Twain, Nichola Machiavelli, Cervantes, Swift, Sun Tsu and many many others all have contributed something to my developement without being "My Religion". One of you even scoffed at Lucas, But he Has reinterpreted some Very Lucid Philosiphies in his Creation of the Jedi order (Drawn from Zen bhuddism, and other sources).
Just because something is a work of fiction, Even a poorly written one, that doesn't automaticly preclude it's ability to Teach Something. You just need to Open your mind a littl more to see it. Authors write books for a number of reasons, But chief among those is to present an Idea to thier reader.

To some the Bible or the Torah, or the Quran are Just Books. To others they are Important Books, to still more they are a whole way of Life. The value isn't REALLY in the Book, I think it's in the reader Ability to take what is IN the Book, and turn it into something Positive in thier Lives. If someone Finds something Positive in the books of Norman, and leads thier life by that ideal (Among others) That's a good thing.

Enough about that.

The OP talked of our Enslavement to our Jobs IRL, Well here's another idea. How many of us have debts to the bank? Loans, Credit debt, Mortgages Etc. Think about it a moment. You work all day, Then at the end of the month you Divide up your money into neat Piles. The largest pile Goes to the Government (It better, or you go to jail) the second Biggest Goes to the various bank Debts (It had better, or they will tke your property, and ruin your ability to Earn More money).
Put in perspective one is Not Free, One leads a life of Indentured Servitude as long as one wants more than basic food, and shelter( and even then it's NOT free), and there is Punishment if you don't Play the game. If you step back and look at it, Freedom isn't really as Free as it looks. One can't really Understand Freedom, Until One Understands all the ways, Subtle, and Overt in which a person can be Enslaved.

I suppose one can argue that there really IS no Freedom, Just degrees of comfortable Slavery.

Angel.

"But the argument that "Tarnsman of Gor" a paperback published in 1966 for profit (by the same author who wrote "Imaginative Sex" in 1974) is a "book" in the same way that the Bible is a "book".. well it's where everything falls to pieces...

The Gor books are fine as fantasy fiction (well they're not really but that's a whole different thread), but they ain't the Bible for many, many reasons.

To make such an argument not only calls your own sanity and intellect into question but by association that of the Gorean lifestyle and community at large."

It has been said in many times and in many places, the value of the pages within a book are best gauged by the way the reader uses the information. If you cant understand that point, then maybe your intellectual abilities are limited? Further to question your reasoning skills, you choose to judge all members of the Gorean community by the posts of a single user? And what group should we judge you by? Lets stop with the insults now, and turn to intelligent discussion. If you can prove any statement of opinion presented I would love to hear evidence. Frankly, Im tired of people bashing something they dont understand.
If you dont accept it, fine, live without it. Stop trying to condem those who do. and for Pete's sake (It hasnt been proven that a God exists yet) stop throwing temper tantrums and insults. Use your words, give an intelligent arguement.

Plenty of people before mainstream religion, did just fine with Ooga Booga the Volcano God, yet i might be bizarree, but no worse than Religions otherwise.
Some people prefer to think of Religions as paths, you don't have to have a Divine Entity, heck Furrism could be next

Hey Guys

This was meant to be funny! What a can of worms I opened.

Maggie

Hello Spade,

Well I'm sorry if it seemed I lost my temper.. I really hadn't. And on rereading my post I realise it was a wee bit inflamatory... maybe..

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Perhaps I'm an intellectual snob and/or a close minded bigot.. both are possible

You see I don't think that all and anything put down on paper has things to teach us, and while any reader may take what they want from any writing.. sometimes both the author and audience can be just plain wrong.

A pseudo scientific written diatribe may set out the theory that the sun actually revolves around the earth.. a reader may take that to be truth.. but at the end of the day it's one big pile of steaming.. well you get the idea.

Again, you make references to God and christianity. Perhaps I can't prove the existence of God.. but then again I can't prove he doesn't exist. Unfortunately I can prove that just about everything contained in the Gor books are fiction.. plain and simple.

As I say, I'm not angry or even annoyed.. more than anything I just like a decent argument..

However what you have to possibly bear in mind is.

While entertaining, the OP did espouse (albeit it in an entertaining way) a critique on modern day society and how it compares unfavourably with your fictional society.

You have on more than one occasion used aspects of Religion, and the Bible as straw men in order to further your arguments.

Several of you have .. and to be honest intellectual snob as I am.. crassly, supported your minority ideals of slavery and subjugation by inferring that we are all "slaves" in an economic sense.

Well, while I respect your right to your own opinions and freedom to thrive within your own subculture, your attempts to bring credibility to it are at least laughable if not downright insulting to the people who still in 2008 are dying in the name of their religion or who are actually in reality suffering in slavery as we speak.

In my view it's not bad tempered or insulting particularly to bring logic and knowledge to bear when confronted with .. well to me at any rate.. what seems to be the opposite.

And yes I'm one of those horrible people who believe that while all opinions are valid (they are after all like A**holes in that everyone has one), not all arguments or set of values are equal or desirable.. and history is littered with examples of those which have caused nothing but pain and heartache.

That's all.. sorry if I offended.. but then I'm guessing that he lady who started the thread suspected that it was entertaining in itself and would continue to be entertaining as a result of the bun fight to follow..

Stephen Wisent
With respect I have read your last post. I mean no offense either, I did take the last arguement preceeding to be a bit inflamatory. The ony problem i have with that is it becomes a personal attack and not an intellectual discussion. So that everyone is clear on my stance. I have only recently been introduced to Gor. I am reading the first book I got my hands on and am not happy that most of my information is based on Gorean behavior where I have witnessed it. I give credence to it as the beliefs fall into fields I had long ago assertained to be truths. My opinion. But I have judged a decline in intelligent government since the 50s. I believe there should be one head of house, and athe house answers to community. Community to nation. Nation to whats best for mankind. Mankind for what is best for nature.

I recently was turned on to another author. Rober A. Heinlein. I was turned to this offer when I describe my feelings on a community family. A dear freind sent me the book Strangers in a Strange land and I read my concept within the degree. This is how I feel so far about Gor. I may be wrong as I delve deeper into the subject.
For now, to me, the arguements show a viable solution. Now as far as salvery goes. I am not a big fan. I see the only reasonable purpose to support salvery as a way to deal with those who are not willing to be accountable for their actions. This may not suit wiht many Goreans. If you arent responsible for your actions, someone has to pay. If it is to be someone else, then let them be responsible for your existance in whole.. simple solution. If you wish to be free, then remain a productive and cooperative member of the society you are part of.

Alot of people seem to "bash" Gor. I look at it the same as I do mormons. No offense. But if I wanted to be saved by mormons, I would attend their church. Or in this day and age with resources on the internet I would research and ask for instruction. If you don't like Gor. dont apply it in your life. Leave those who do the freedom to take it in as they see fit.

I bring religion in often though I contest Gor is not religion, becasue most people argue as if it is a new religion. It does not replace spiritual divinity. It is a way to view social order jsut as Free Market and Socialism is. I was raised a Christian. I believe in God for my own purpose, but I dont tell others they ned to believe he exists. That is for each man/ woman to decide for themselves.
As a person newly into Gor, I do not find myself as a spokesperson for the entire community. I do find myself defending my view points as most Goreans I have met will hold their discussions with other Goreans and leave those who do not acept to argue amongst themselves. I am disappointed in that most "Goreans" that people discuss play the role in online sims. They do not live it in their real life as docterine.

Simply put, I offer arguement to counter those views against what I am currnntly studying as a viable social option. I do agree that its feasability ion a world so advanced is hard to construct as the books do offer a limited technological envirnoment. That is the purpose of having a reputatble board from which to hold open discussion in how these concepts can be aplied in our eeryday life. For instance, one cannot take a woman who is disrespectful and causing problems or a man for that matter, and slap a collar on them and expect them to behave as a slave. It must be concentual. I could not decide my wife has misbehaved and make her a slave. She would divorce me and go move in with her family. Yet I assert in our house that I will not submit to her demands. We discuss our desicions and I trust in her willingness to cooperate and compramise so that our family unit is best served.

There we have taken from Gor and applied it to our way of life. My wife by the way, detests Gorean sociology and philosophy. She is entitled. She also accepts tha I accept Gor.

I wish you welll and lookforward to reasonable debate.

Spadesrun

Just so you know Even Goreans don't get it right all the time;

Spadesrun said:It's a VERY Common Misconception even Among Gorean that Free Women must be at all times Pliant, Aquiescent, and Quietly Respectful to thier male Counterparts. This misconception comes about from reading the Books, and Yet Only taking with one the concepts that reinforce ones own prejudices. Here are a few of MANY quotes within the books that are diametricly Opposed to the View that free Women have no Voice in Gorean Society.

Free women, in being free, command attention when they speak. It is their due.
~Explorers of Gor - Page 354~

Free Gorean women, incidentally, enjoy a prestige and status which, it seems to me, is higher than that of the normal Earth woman.
~Explorers of Gor - Page 459~

Whereas a free woman may often make a man angry with impunity, she being lofty and free, this latitude is seldom extended to the slave.
~Blood Brothers or Gor - Page 221~

Gorean Free Women are respected and honored because they are what they Are. FREE,, and Strong enough, and Honorable enough to Remain so.

Reading is only Part of the process,, Comprehending plays a Role also.

Angel.

Tal,
while at first read your quotes seem very promising in evidence, I look further in the words. Not just reading them, but applying what (little) i do know. The Guardsman of Gor is enough to unsettle these statements. It describes the feelign of Earth women who are no more than slave worthy being that they dont understand the glory of being taken by a man (sexually and authoratively). Keep in mind that concept comes from the book, I cant compare being that I havent slept wiht a Gorean man and wouldn't if given the option.

"Free women, in being free, command attention when they speak. It is their due.
~Explorers of Gor - Page 354~"
This would depend on whose point of view the words were spoken from. If a slave said it then of course a free person male or female must be respected. If a man said it it could imply nothing more than the free woan be respected for the simple reason she hasnt pissed a man off enough to entice him to collar her.

"Free Gorean women, incidentally, enjoy a prestige and status which, it seems to me, is higher than that of the normal Earth woman.
~Explorers of Gor - Page 459~"
Well of course free Gorean women enjoy prestige and status which is higher than Earth women. Notice it says normal Earth women? Not Free. Now I havent read all the books, very few so far, but I have yet to see a free Earth woman on Gor. Their very dress enitces men to enslave them. I would understand that Earth women are believe to not understand the power of a man, because Earth men are weak from not understanding their nature and letting their behavior conflict with their nature within. This is from not only what Ive read, btu how I watch women react to men. Women who live as Gorean, tend to pull away from men who are not "gorean", and hey, even I have been called weak in comparrison to Gorean men. Weak I am not I assure you. But there you have the concept between Goreans and Terrans, Goreans simply are more. (Terrans are Eartheans for those of previous comments who seem to think Eartheans is a proper term, FYI)


"Whereas a free woman may often make a man angry with impunity, she being lofty and free, this latitude is seldom extended to the slave.
~Blood Brothers or Gor - Page 221~"
A salve wouldnt be given this leniency simply because she is a slave. However "Shirley", previously Luta taken by Jason from another Master was defiant as she was viewed by her previous Master as for him alone. She acted with haughtyness and defiance to Jason, who then took her a his own, whipped her for displeasing him and gave her a Earth name to punish her, for Earth salves are passed freely and treated lower than Gorean slaves.


"Gorean Free Women are respected and honored because they are what they Are. FREE,, and Strong enough, and Honorable enough to Remain so." ( i would assume this is not a quote from a book but your own opinion as ther is no footnote?)

This is true, in that they remain free because they have not angered a man so that he would take her as a slave. This argument above all others is prevelant throughout Guardsman of Gor.not only stated but restated several times. A free woman does not walk down the street wearing revealing clothin less a man lust for her and take her as a slave to be his against her will. Even in describing the dress free women despise slaves scantily dressed in public for they attract the eyes of Free women's men. we cant just read the words and say we understand them. We have to look at its reference to all other words in the book, and all other books on the subject, ad when we apply these beliefs into our own behavior, we must then apply each persons interpretation to the whole and eventually draw out our own understanding.

Now, arguements of validity on fact out of the way. I do not disrespect women be they free or in slavery. Being that on Earth a salve girl cant be forced, legally, to be a slave, they do earn some respect from me. It is a choice they made, and if they stand with their decision it pleases me. If they enjoy their position even through punishments for their displeasing their Masters then I consider them to be honorable and in high regards, fro a slave. For they have done what most people cannot not. They have so engroed themselvees into being who they are that they allow it to take the whole of their being. Not many people in US History I can recall being remembered for that. Although I seem to remember this guy, Jesus .... was hung from a cross because he believe he was "God's" son. Not to start another debate. This would be interesting to see debated on my Gorean board. I think you end phrase suits my arguement as well, so pardon me for using it ere too

"Reading is only Part of the process,, Comprehending plays a Role also. "

IWYW (I Wish You Well)

Spadesrun

Hi

I cant believe we depate the interpretation of certain passages of a Gor book as if it was the bibble. Hey guys, its fiction, nothing more. Its not the bible, the bible is based (most of it) on a real peoples history not on a fictious planet invented by a fiction writer - that makes a big difference dont you think so?

Normans books have one thing in common with my post: The intention is entertainment! Or does the book or Norman himself suggest its to be followed as a lifestyle or a phylosophy, never mind a religion? He (John Norman) must think himself: How bizarre, people try to actually live the content of my novels.......

Just imagine me running through a real forest with a bow and shooting on men which i later torture, rape, and collar to be slave (thats basically what I do in SL as a panther). Or what would be (doing) my counter part in Real Life?

So the Gorean horse got beaten beyond its death here? To me that horse seams to be pretty active for being dead.

Maggie

*eyes drift off into the middle distance and imagines.......

Sorry Magdelena.. you were saying..