Visual effect of banlines on neighbours - a demonstration you can visit inworld (?)

OK Cole. Don't relax. Get active.
Please go to http://slurl.com/secondlife/glamaig/179/36/21/
You owe it to yourself to go there and see for yourself.

I challenge you to go and see. Then come back here and tell us what you think about the effect of banlines on neighbours.


This thread started with an invitation for people to go and look at that plot.
The slurl was repeated a few times in the thread.
The fact the the ban lines of neighbouring parcels can be seen from a distance of 14 metres, and through the walls of the house has been clearly stated.

By continuing to make assertions like the above, when others here have gone there and have experienced the truth, you just make yourself appear incredibly dull and stupid.
You damage all of the points that you want to make by continuing to assert the equivalent of 'black is white'.

I was trying to be funny again.

But, but... did you visit the OP's posted demo that is the subject of this thread? Perhaps you just don't yet appreciate the damage done by visible banlines to a *huge* swathe of the land around the protected parcel. This is not just a little playful Mario particle griefing here, we're talking major intrusiveness. However we feel about the protection afforded by banlines, the visual impact of their current implementation in the viewer is surely not the way this should work.

Meade, the velocity-sensitive visibility idea is appealing... it just *sounds* difficult to implement in the viewer. But then, I don't know the viewer source, and was blithely contemplating how a scripted attachment might do it, given the right LSL functions, much as vehicles can detect llScriptDanger() parcels ahead (well, to the extent that it works). May in fact be easier to do in the viewer, for all I know.

You are correct... I am not looking for free access, just a bit less harshness from the banlines. I agree that people should be able to use them... they just don't work well enough "mechanically", if you will.

I agree. I do think they are overused, but I am not going to dictate policy based on that opinion.

Right... though flying below the hight limit happens to get a better view of a build, or to access a store/gallery/parcel which is "public" in the midst of people who have banlines up.

Sure I do... if someone doesn't have their banlines up, I can fly right past without worry. I don't get out and walk around on people's property unless it is specifically designated as "public".

I have the right to access a public parcel, but if it's got a parcel on one or more sides that has banlines up, it's a pain in the buttocks, and my own user experience is effected. In fact, the support wiki specifically states that use of land tools which result in effecting other people's rights is prohibited. But rather than AR people who block access to other parcels... I just want the banlines feature fixed.

I also find myself in total dismay that people are so antisocial in SL these days. It never used to be like this. All I want to do is explore the grid, stay out of people's way, and have a good time without hurting anyone.

That used to be allowed... hell it used to be encouraged.

[edit] - I just wanted to say thank you for discussing this with me. I appreciate a good discussion/debate over an argument any day of the week.

I may take a stab at it this weekend, if it's not too hard to get the latest stuff to compile - it's been a while since I caught up with the source. That area of the code does seem to have easy access to the avatars speed (unless Kitty is right that this value is bogus when you're on a vehicle.. I have a sleazy plan to work around that, though) and it's already doing stuff to figure out the alpha settings for ban lines. Hopefully, it won't get too messy.

Though I agree with something Kitty said earlier, that there's really just no 100% solution to all this, I think it'd make both the vehicle crowd and the sittin'-at-home crowd a bit happier.

I was looking for a place to rent recently and was completely put off several otherwise lovely homes due to ugly visible banlines ruining the surrounding views

Okay. I went. I looked. I saw.

Ban Lines are close, but so are the builds. Nothing bad there.

What is bad is that build on that plot. Good greif man!!! Even the floor prims outside that house show through and they're there as PART of the build. That house was built by Eric Linden, and, I'm sorry, but this is one of the most pisspoor builds I've seen in SL. The alpha texturing on the "windowed" walls could be better done by my cat. I think she left the rough sketch in her litterbox.

Seriously. If you're going to use the plot to show the intrusivness of Ban Lines (and yes, it would be possible on that plot with as close as they all are), then put down a decent build, not one made by someone who still eats paste.

~Jessy

I've got to agree.. finally went and looked myself.. I'm not so much bothered by the banlines here, but the fact you can see the water through the walls, and that theres a tree coming through one wall... and then yes... the alpha is causing the banlines to show and whatnot... which for new players could be a problem, but... meh =P

Edit:: Now then, camming into the neighbours home (Just for this purpose I swear... ) You can't see the ban lines. Its also a generally better build.. so I'm seeing that banlines are only a prolem as you've shown it if you're build is.. not so great, yeah?

I'm really not trying to... I am at work right now, and posting between tasks. I may miss a point here or there to answer something else... if that happens, just point it out and I will get to it... sorry

The mainland is not your private land, either. Many people on the mainland have NO issue with people flying around above them. I have been trying to find the thread (from a year ago) where this very issue was addressed... including the reason why banlines only go up so high (the post was made by a Linden), but I am not having luck with that. I wish they still posted here so one of them would get involved in the discussion for clarification purposes. One of us is obviously wrong here, and each of us believes it is the other.

I explore the whole mainland... there isn't any law against that, so long as I am not violating the TOS, CS, or EULA.

No, I did not say that. it is the height limit of the banlines, and is such so that people can get past your parcel by flying over it. Ask a Linden... I'm not making this up.

I don't only fly above 50m, as not every parcel is occupied, or occupied or private. And when I am trying to stay above 50m, with the banlines being so damned hard to see from most angles in a balloon or blimp, it is almost always too late when I do see it. There is no law against flying below 50m on the mainland.

I appreciate the discussion, thank you for trying to understand my point of view.

Or if you are standing outside.

This is one of the reasons that I love the suggestion of being able to toggle the visibility and draw distance of them.

*big heavy sigh* Well of course it's a crap build.
The crappiness is entirely irrelevant.
However, some seem to be using it as an excuse to avoid unwelcome facts.
The ban lines would shine just as brightly in the open and through alpha walls.
I took it out of the Inventory library because it was off-the-shelf with alphas in the walls.

Yup there's a tree plonked down so that the ban lines shine through it. I thought that the bits of tree coming through the walls were kinda cute and classic SL.

The 'floor'?
As I said in the opening posts, I deliberately did that as an incidental to illustrate the generic alpha issue.

The plot and it's contents are there for one reason only - to illustrate the problem that banlines cause to neighbours.
I deliberately cut a 512 out of the plot because that is a very common starter size.


Does anybody dispute the facts that
- the ban lines on the N and E boundaries begin to appear at a distance of 14metres?
- they are at full strength at a distance of 10 metres?
- that they will shine through an alpha texture?

Does anybody dispute the fact the the particular library building is irrelevant in the context of the issue? An expensive prefab or custom could still have alpha's in the walls. Buildings designed for 512 plots have to be prim-misers.

Does anybody dispute the fact that any building is irrelevant? If you stand in the open - outside of the building - the ban lines are there.




Perhaps I should do a proper non-noob build, but I really have to wonder if it's worth it.
Any open minded person can see the issue.
Anybody who is determined to evade the issue is still going to find some wriggle room to downplay it.

I assume that the horses who refuse to drink are afraid that if they admit that the visual effect is horrendous, then they will have to endure uncomfortable feelings of guilt when they turn on their own ban lines.


Gawd! I'd be so depressed if I wasn't generally a very upbeat sort of person

I didnt quite mean to suond as harsh as I did earlier.. I do understand that many people find them to be a problem, and that they are hideous to some as well... but thats what I gathered from that 'exhibit' (Dunno if thats what to call it o.o)

I was just commenting, since I hadn't yet been there. I agree that the alpha problem is horrid, but.. even if they change the look, unless they make it a solid wall graphic or something, that will always happen. Its the alpha sorting problem of the rendering engine, not the game itself...the distance problem though is bad, and should be fixed and scalable or something in my opinion...

Nope. Didn't measure it, but I'll take your word for it.



Nope. Didn't measure it, but I'll take your word for it.



Nope. Known SL issue with LL working on trying to solve it. Next!



If it's an expensive prefab or custom with alphas like that in the walls, then it's just an expensive piece of crap. Pay 1,000,000 for a pile of dog doodoo and it's still a pile of dog doodoo. Using a build that HIGLIGHTS a known problem in LL is like setting a tree of fire and claiming that it's a problem because they burn.



See Above on the building. However, yes, the ban lines are there. This is where it comes into having good relations with your neighbors. As said many times prior. With good relations, they will add you to the access list, so you do not have to look at the ban lines. To those flying by, oh well. You won't see them once you leave.

If things can not be worked out between you and your neighbor(s), then you have the options of sticking it out, doing unto them and banning them to let them see the ban lines too, building in the sky away fromt he ban lines, or moving. While this may sound heartless, who really wants to live by buttheads that will not be freindly with you? There are always problems that can happen, but this usually only involves one map direction. If you're surrounded by such (as in the example SLURL) then it's obvious that you're in a 'bad neighborhood'.

Using something as this to preclude removing ban lines, or having them 'forced' to view their own ban lines, when only used to provide a moderation of privacy and land control for land they pay for, is a bit...well...asnine.

You asked us to look at the plot and build and ban lines, and we did. However, when we didn't agree with you, now we are not open-minded? Well, sorry. I for one can see opting for options to turn down/off/on/up the appearance of ban lines, and to even places those lands as highlighted options on the mini-map. I can not see any reason at all for removing them, or even changing a single code on how they actually function.

You state about the 'horse to water'. Well, you've been led to many facts and reasons to keep the ban lines, but fail to drink in the fact that many have valid reasons for them. I'll turn your own statement about people wiggling out of reason back. Pot. Kettle. Black.

~Jessy

Can we toggle the visibility and phantom settings of ugly structures and ad farms? Now that would be worth something.

Well, your post and demo got some folks thinking about this in constructive ways who never even noticed the problem before, so don't OD on the SSRIs just yet.

By the way, the alpha-sorting thing isn't going to go away just because LL waves some magic wand. They can make it marginally better or worse, but short of re-implementing the vendor's OpenGL libraries and greatly reducing rendering rates, it's gonna be with us. But it is kinda a side-issue to the visible banlines discussion.

"However, when we didn't agree with you,..."
Who disagreed with me?
You don't. You didn't look at the rulers to measure it, but you do take my word for the visibility distances.
Mission of thread and plot accomplished! (almost)

Again, the purpose of this thread is discuss the "Visual effect of banlines on neighbours".
That plot was a 1024 that I wasn't using. I cut it into two 512s and threw a few prims on one to demonstrate the actual distances involved.
I did this because I was seeing people posting vague assertions about the visibility. It was clear that many had absolutely no idea of how bad it was.
The plot has rulers laid down so that people can see it for themselves down to the metre.






You are mistaken. You don't turn my statement back.
This thread is about the "Visual effect of banlines on neighbours"

It is true that some people posted off-topic here to discuss security. People have indeed posted about the reasons to keep others off their property.

Nobody has posted any reason *to keep banlines --- as they are now*.
People have posted reasons to keep the ban facility - which was of course, off-topic.

It's more a case of
Pot - Kettle ......
Kettle ?? No silly!!! I'm a sugar bowl!!


You also seem to be under the completely mistaken impression that this is some plot that I'm building on and that I have some issue with the neighbours, and that this has sparked my OP.
LOL!! When I posted that slurl, I did so thinking "Jeeze, I hope the neighbours don't take down those ban lines before people have a chance to see them.
I put my own ban lines up on the other half of the cut 1024 so that I'd be guaranteed to have ban lines stay on that boundary.
If either of the neighbours had dropped their banlines, I would have had to send them a polite IM : "Terribly sorry, but you would please put back your ban lines for a few days please? I really need them, pretty please"

In any case, (again), the neighbour access list is irrelevant, as it would currently only solve the visual issue for the names that a neighbour agrees to add to their access list.




SO:
The purpose of the thread and the purpose of the quick and dirty build on a completely empty spare plot that for whatever reasons had ban lines on two boundaries?

One purpose and one alone.
Get general agreement that ban lines are a significant visual problem for neighbours.
Given that previous threads on the general topic become very emotional, get a separation in the general conciousness of the visual issue from the issue of security.
That's it! End of story.


Why?
Because when the issue of their griefy ugliness is raised for LL's attention, we wouldn't have that simple fact drowned out by people screaming that they wanted to "keep banlines" when all they really wanted was to "keep security".


Oh boy!
Oh boy, oh boy!!!


It's not looking promising.

I've tried hard to keep the thread on topic.
Others have joined in that.
But it's still obviously not enough.
The security issue is just too emotional for some.


On the bright side:
I believe that at this stage, despite the heat, most people here would support the idea, proposed by a number of people in different ways, that a line visibility option in View would be a runner as a 'fix' of a visual issue that
- can seriously degrade the SL experience
- hits hardest at small plots
- hits hardest at new residents

As much as I've read regarding taking off ban lines, I've yet to see anything worthwhile, anything valid. I have seen some ridiculous comments and excuses given by some who don't like these lines.

Regardless, if you don't like these lines, the fact remains they are here and no amount of excuses is going to take them off.

I also have them up on my land and for good reason and I don't care who doesn't like it. Now, if you pay my tier then maybe I'll take them down. Other then this either deal with it or move on.

Ummm...Cue the blush and the Homer Simpson "DOH!" on my part, ey? lol

And yes, I did get all the off-topic stuff messed in with your OP. Many appollogies.

And yes, ban lines look like crap. So do ad-farms, and a lot of the "normal" builds out there. If you can gather a good way to alievate the visual burden of ban lines in SL, then I think everyone in SL (aside from those too stupid to type and breath at teh same time) would be for it.

With what you have here, I'd suggest distilling the ideas, then popping up a new thread in the Feature Discussion forum, then put it into JIRA for voting so we canuse our votes to beat it into LL's head (bring a big stick).

And don't rule out all the (admitidly emotional) feedback from all the talks on the security side of the ban lines. Some good ideas came up in those threads as well. Just most got buried so fast it became pointless to continue the conversations.

Oh, and if you do get a JIRA about on it, let me know the #. From how this thread followed, I'd prolly slap my vote on it.

~Jessy

When I visited that parcel I finally realized my viewer is only showing the banlines around one parcel at any given time. Could that be part of the reason why you often can't see the border you're about to run into?

Antisocial? Why thank you, didn't think you'd noticed. I'm impressed.

Antisocial because I don't agree with these ridiculous assertions that ban lines are worse then the plague? Please!!!

So now I have to agree or else if I don't I'm antisocial or worse. YAY for ban lines!!!!!!

You anti social types should form a club. Then you could have weekly meetings that no one would go to....

Sling

I couldn't care less about your dumb challenges. I'm not checking anything as it's not my concern. And even if there's something going on in one area, does it mean all areas are the same?
You're just upset you're rants about these wascally ban lines aren't having the effect you crave. They are here son, and they're not going anywhere regardless of how much you kick and scream. Find something else worthwhile to rant and rave about cause this ain't doing it.

Look a ban line behind you!!!! Ha! I know you looked. Did I frighten you?

Ban Lines, Ban Lines, Ban Lines

Come on Brenda, you know you'd love to join as VP.

Hey I'm there. As long as no one else shows up.

Yeah, well, that's what the whole thread is supposed to be about. First post, title of the thread, etc..