do i or dont i own land i bought & paid for from Anshe Chung

these are two very important points:


i was not aware of this buy back policy. this is a very beneficial service over owning on the grid, particularly with a tier discount that "owning" on dreamland entails. in the long run, the loss from deserting the land might be easily made up in the discounted tier one enjoyed throughout the time.


very good point as well. anshe, can you provide links to the documentation your provide your potential costumer on your regulations?

i'm still on the fence about how dreamland operates but anshe's buy back policy is definitely a huge positive aspect.

I don't know anyone who would intentionally abandon land.

When it does happen it's usually someone who quit playing and eventually their land gets recycled.

Personally, I would never sell my land for half price - it's not a very desirable option.

All that is humanly possible, Coco ? How about the very simple option of not deliberately choosing to create all this confusion in the first place ?

Isn't that "humanly possible ? Just avoid using the terms "buy", "purchase", "own". The Lindens have decreed that these things are actually rentals - so why not solve it this easy way ?

I know why they avoid this oh-so-humanly-possible solution. Can you think of a reason ?

At the bottom of this post is the explanation of the options, taken directly from Anshe's website. Does this read to you like someone trying to avoid confusion ?

I consider it appallingly inadequate at best.

Notice the contrast between "you don't pay rent" and "You have to pay tier fees." The whole thing revolves around a completely imaginary distinction between "rent" and "tier fees" although both are paid to the same person. A distinction which must surely have been specifically engineered to mimic the Linden terminology and support the fiction of ownership.

Notice the welter of complexity hidden by the word "administered", and the careful wording of "receive the land".

The only saving grace is the quotes round the word "owning", but how many will realise their significance ?

I sincerely hope the explanatory notecards, or some other page of the website, do a lot better than this.

Here is the quote. Do you still feel it is doing everything "humanly possible " ?


"RENTING
Land in this sim is available for rent for 1600 L$ per 4 week period per 1024 sqm. There is no upfront investment necessary nor do you have to pay land tier fees.

BUYING
There is also the option of "owning" land. You pay a one time purchase price and you don't pay rent. This ownership is transferable if you decide to sell it to another SL resident. It is permanent as long as you don't violate the sim's zoning rules and terms of service. You have to pay tier fees.

There are some differences compared to land ownership on the mainland that you should be aware of:

o As long as the sim exists it will be administered by ANSHECHUNG.COM. To receive the land you will have to setup your own land ownership group with at least 3 accounts as members. You then invite Anshe Chung or Guni Greenstein temporarily as officer to this group and we deed you the land.

o You pay your tier fees to ANSHECHUNG.COM via PayPal. You do not pay Linden Lab. Rates are comparable to those usually charged by Linden Lab."

Is this sarcasm, Juani ? 50% a "huge positive aspect" ?

On the mainland you can always find a buyer quickly if you will accept 50% of what you paid, unlerss prices have crashed more than ever before. Have you enquired into the details of the Anshe offer ? Is it 50% of what you paid, or 50% of her current price ? If prices have crashed to the point where the offer is valuable, you could find the offer has crashed too.

Are there any other small print conditions ? What if confidence in Anshe has collapsed, and almost everyone in the sim wants out at once? Would she really be able and willing to cough up for even 75% of residents ? I doubt it.

This way (as I explained above) a landowner could in theory amass 50 sims worth US$50,000 without ever having the capital to buy more than one at a time ie US$1000. How could they suddenly find US$25,000 on demand ?

I find it really hard to believe you are genuinely impressed by this, Jauni. The threadstarter wasn't too impressed to lose 50% after a week of ownership. Where is the statement guaranteeing this policy ? How long has it been established ?

It's sarcasm, isn't it ?

as i've spent the better part of the last hour reading the bickering going on about buying vs. renting and who is really doing what something occurred to me...

no matter what anyone says, it's all renting because the owner/renter gains no equity thru ownership. you "buy" the land at a set price, then continue to pay tier in a monthly amount that is at least as much as the price you paid for the land in the first place (give or take, depending on the linden/dollar exchange rate and how much land you "bought". sure you can sell the land at what seems like a profit, but unless you do so before your first tier payment is due, did u realize that profit? no. so who cares if you have the right to recoup some of your initial outlay?

the more i kept reading, the more obvious the scam became...you buy a sim at $1200 then pay $195/mo after that - forever...great idea, i get to pay for land i "own" twice over again every year!!! where do i sign up and why isn't the line longer??? oh, and by the way, my landlord (lindenlabs) can throw me out, take my land and sell it to someone else anytime they get ready...groovy.

hey...i'm not knocking the lindens or anshe or anybody else. i wish i'd have thought up this new-millenium version of the bait and switch myself. i aint mad at ya at all...but one thing is clear and no amount of spin or righteous indignation is going to change the facts: nobody owns land in sl but the lindens. we pay to have exclusive use of it for a period of time, and when that period is over, or our money runs out, that land goes back to the lindens (eventually).

anyway...thanks to you all for helping to clear this up for me...happy "land ownership" to you all!!!

I don't know, Elle, it looks pretty straightforward to me.

Maybe some new word would be good. But just calling these land "sales" rentals wouldn't work, because they are NOT rentals.

They just aren't.

coco

Excellent!

LoL - the house always wins, sooner or later - and there is no dispute that Linden Lab is the sole House of SL.

And the LindenLab-house-wanna-bee's will sooner or later learn that marketing by fancy words, empty promises, and double-speak will eventually fall on deaf ears.

We come into this world (our first life) without any personal wealth or possessions. In the time we are alive we amass sometimes great fortunes sometimes just great debt. Let's assume we have "bought" many material possessions including a lot of land in Peoria. We suddenly die! The wealth is gone. Unless we "pass" it on to someone else the State takes it. So the question for today boys and girls is: Did we really "buy" and "own" or were we renting that lot in Peoria? All in life is temporary .. including life itself ..

I suggest that is a deeper question to ponder then wether land is bought, rented or sold in second life.

This thread is so amusing .. when there are people dying from homelessness and hunger from natural disasters and unjust wars .. here you all are debating weather Anshe Chung sells or rents land. This woman gave more to the relief effort from the ravages of Katrina then anyone I know on second life. She auctioned herself off, gave prizes, money to help people in a country other then her own. How many of you could match her generosity and compassion.


That's how I measure a person's worth.

MQ

Well yes, Chris, partly, though the last bit is wrong.

This is the philosophical argument which Anshe keeps putting up in defense of her use of the "land sale" language. That she is only doing exactly what the Lindens are doing.

But I see numerous huge practical differences between leasing from Linden (correct inworld terminology "buying land" and sub-leasing from Anshe (correct inworld terminology "renting".

Differences big enough to justify protecting the ill-informed from accidentally doing one thinking they are doing the other.

And the best way to protect them is by limiting the "buy/sell" language to the official version.

After all, if some big owner decided that they preferred another word for "prim" would that be ok ? Surely the owner of the game decides what things and procedures are correctly called. They say this is rental, it's their prerogative, and I support them.

Why would anyone wish to argue, unless they sought to gain advantage from generating a little confusion ? Big, real, financial advantage. Actual US$.

I contacted Anshe regarding selling my land and how difficult it is to find buyers for it. Also, after reading this, my feelings are very mixed about even selling it. I was told by Anshe, she will purchase the land at HALF of what i paid for it. I paid almost 50K for it, so that would result less then 25K back. I see how some ppl make all their money here !!!Even to switch to another property of equal size there is a 8K charge for that.


Well I love the place I built in Dreamland but I have moved on to D'Alliez for all the reasons listed here. I would really recommand here or Hiro

If anyone has any advise on what to do with my land in Dreamland, let me know. Thanks

For those of you new to the thread, this poster is the employee and right-hand man of the resident he is praising. And the person responsible for all the initial dealings with the other resident who started this thread by posting how he/she felt that she had been misled by his sales pitch. Responsible for the sale to this resident who ended losing US$115 to his organisation in a few short days when her plea that she had bought under a serious misunderstanding fell on deaf ears.

A person who might well prefer us to "ponder" something other than these events. Who might like to contemplate that for some people US$115 is a very significant sum, and one whose loss in such exploitative circumstances could cause much genuine distress.

I mention it because I tend to take such things into account.

That's how I measure a posting's worth.

Except that it is completely and totally irrelevant. We're here in the second life forum discussion issues that affect second life. If you'd rather ponder the the "deeper questions", I'm sure there are places where that can be discussed.



It's great that AC has done whatever she's done. But many, many people have shown remarkable generosity and compassion.

Tell me again what this has to do with the topic at hand?

---------------

BTW, I have no idea what Anshe means when she said people can "release" their land. I can't use the release mechanism in the edit land dialog.

He prefers us to ponder something different. Hardly surprising in view of his personal involvement in the incident.

Are you an employee or a cult member? Can I join the First Church of AnsheCorp too? Would I get a cool peach toga or at least a purple blanket and some new sneakers? When is comet Hale-Bopp supposed to arrive?

I simply cannot figure out whether to pity the thoughts embodied here or scorn them for a Godwin like rhetorical stunt, so I'm reduced to ridiculing them.

Wow, I missed a lot during the ten hours I was at work today! I didn't reply to individual posts as I was reading, because I wanted to see what others said first. But here I am at the end (for now) and I'll just summerize a few points that come to mind:

1) Now I know why I recieved an IM from (a landlord) telling me I was wrong to say you could only rent land on private Sims. Seems I missed a whole fervent thread on the matter while I was gone this summer.

2) I will continue to refer to renting/leasing land on private Sims, and not use the confusing term "buying" or "ownership".

3) Khamon, yes I'm aware we're all only really leasing from LL, as I said a while back in a different thread! However, my concern is primarily to develop a consistent vocabulary that matches the terms used in-world.

4) Am I correct that Anshe is disputing Kismet's 'resolution' post by saying Kismet refused to accept more money than half the purchase price? Did Anshe pay more, and Kismet return the difference? Did Anshe really decide not to give full reimbursement in ignorance of the fact that, had she done so, Kismet would have in all likeliehood posted here with a much more positive attitude? Does Anshe care so little about public perception? Wouldn't the handing over of the additional L$30k (Wow, that's a ton of money!) have been such an easy and obvious way to improve the reputation of AnsheChung.com?

5) I will continue to only refer to the official LL First Land program as 'First Land', and not use the same term for private landlords who offer land rental/leases to new residents.

6) I would say something about Anshe equating herself with LL and the whole 'stakeholder' discussion from the MJW thread, but I'm probably already endangering my impartial status too much!

7) Ellie, I gave out your notecard this week in my class, and it was enthusiastically received and read by all students, inclduing those who have already had leasing experiences.

To all those land barons/landlords/land speculators who attend my classes as alts and ask pointed questions to try and goad me into inflammatory comments about you, I'm not biting. I'm on to your little game, and I'd love you to reveal who you are! We can all have a laugh about it, I'm sure.

9) Oh, and Ellie, I think I love you

I guess it's never a bad tactic to try to change the subject.

This was the first time I had ever posted on any forum, the second time I have ever read a thread during 4 months on SL. I'll simply clarify the last comment about being an employee of Anshe and leave this forum to the rest of you who so kindly and generously treat each other.

I have no employment contract nor any other agreement with Anshe Chung Group. I don't need a few lindens a week when I have been blessed throughout a life and career worth well beyond most. Anshe herself recently asked me "why do you do this?" I answered "because I enjoy it". I enjoy helping people. It's what I do in real life and what I enjoy doing here. Kismet herself complimented me profusely during the period that I spent countless hours with her. I didn't have to. I chose to do it because I genuinely wanted to help her. My honesty, integrity and compassion have never been questioned in my rl. It's ironic that I have to come to a on-line chat to be insulted, misquoted and attacked in a drama that's as pathetic as the people perpetrating it. Don't bother commenting .. I'll not be back here to read them.

Adios

MQ

LOL. Well for the record, although I did once come to one of your classes and ask about the whole land baron issue, it was out of a genuine desire to understand the land market and not any attempt to goad you. It won't take much digging for you to verify that I'm not an alt. =P

I, too, would be against calling any of these lands for sale "First Land." That does imply Linden land, in that it is actually a Linden Term, and not a real world term. But I see nothing wrong with calling them "sales" cause they are different from renting, from leasing, and from rent-to-buy.

I want to add that I was only a month old when I found Nexus Nash's place in Meins. I found it cause it was advertised in the Classified section. (You know, that place the Lindens have decided that we don't need anymore; not even new players.)

As far as I knew at the time, there wasn't anything else comparable. And may not have been, I don't know. But I do know it was the first I had ever heard of such an arrangement.

I understood perfectly well what they meant by "buy" the land and pay "tier" to them because they explained it, and it is on the notecards.

I'm happy to live there, and happy to pay "tier" to them. If I weren't paying it to them, I would be paying it to the Lindens in real dollars, and I much prefer to pay it to Nexus in Lindens. But either way - I would be paying tier to SOMEBODY.

I also understood that because I was "buying" the land I could resell it to anyone whenever I liked.

Before that, being the type of AV who needs a home, I was renting a hole in the wall. It was cheap, and the guy was real nice about letting me have enough prims "within reason" and in helping me with everything.

But I knew the difference, even at that early date, between renting and "buying" from a private owner, and buying from someone else, and buying First Land. I moved out to "buy" from a private owner.

To conclude, there are evidently people who consider the entire business Nexus is in to be underhanded, exploitative, and unethical, predicated on a desire to mislead people, judging by this thread, and I guess always will.

Everyone is welcome to their view, of course. But I view it as a service that they offer me, a service that I want and enjoy. Now I own Linden land of my own, but I continue to live on Azure Islands.

And I'm not the only person who enjoys this set-up, judging by their phenomenonal success.

So I guess I'll just leave it at that.

coco

giggles.

One thing is for certain, he hasn't been misquoted.

And what could someone possibly expected when the come on here and blow happy AC sunshine up our asses?

Might I suggest you find something that you are more adept at then? I could make SL clothing and spend hours convincing players to buy it and even though it would require a lot of effort and time on my part and regardless of how much enjoyment it brings me, the buyers would still be ripped off because I'm a lousy clothier.

Contrariwise, AnsheCorp, might I suggest to you that having this non-employee representing your firm is a liability?

You might have something there, Malachi. If "countless hours" were not enough to explain what he was selling, then perhaps he equally failed to make clear to Anshe what an unhappy customer she had on her hands. Maybe he tried to avoid having to admit that he was responsible for such misunderstanding occurring.

It certainly doesn't seem like Anshe to so publicly refuse to refund in such circumstances. Remember the girl who didn't like her "swamp" ? Or was it a "marsh" ?

A few aggressive forum posts, and suddenly she got her money back, even though I wasn't really sure she deserved it. It's just good PR, isn't it ?

Let me add something here. As someone who is new to SL, I do have to say that I agree with the sentiment that the existence of barons who are entirely supported by LL very much keeps me from being more interested in this game (please don't start the 'its not a game' discussion, thats another thread.) It makes SL (and LL) feel like a fairly shady entity, a virtual world which resembles what those currently in power in this country would like to see in the real world. In other words, a world where the overwhelming majority of resources, wealth, and property are in the hands of an extremely small percentage of the population. When the vast, vast majority of land is in the hands of a few, ok one, who is interested solely in financial gain, it should be no mystery why SL is such a one note place. Who can afford to build something simply fun and creative when land is so expensive and scarce? So what we end up with is the SL we have, casinos, sex clubs, and endless, ugly shopping malls. Its hard to describe how all of the behind the curtain land antics make many of us who come into SL feel, but I guess you could say I often feel like if I look up in the sky, I'll see Anshe and LL's faces grinning down at me, with tented fingers ala mr. burns and dollar signs in their eyes. Extreme? Probably, but not by much. The fact is, the SL that is advertised on the main page simply does not exist. Yes, you can probably find all the types of places to explore that are mentioned there, but if they aren't somehow making money for someone, more than likely you will be the only person there. You may be able to create whatever you want (another debate), but if it requires any space, be ready to $hell out some serious ca$h, either to LL or to their unofficial land dealer. Dozens of in world mini games? I'm sure there are, but good luck finding a place to play any not ending in ingo. Do I sound bitter? Sure, but I have no doubt whatsoever that plenty of others are thinking these exact same things but haven't wanted to endure the slew of attacks thare are sure to follow.

Someone posted an analogy here a few weeks ago that I thought made a lot of sense. Kazuo.

They talked about a beautiful Carribean Island, and how several different sorts of people would and could share it, although to each it was an entirely different sort of place, with an entirely different sort of meaning.

To the tourists it is a place to rest and play, and spend money earned elsewhere. To the expatriots who want to stay because its so nice, it may be a place where they seek a congenial occupation to earn just enough to make it possible for them to stay, but if they get bored theyll be off back to their more prosperous opportunities back home.

But to the locals the beauty may be invisible, the enjoyment non-existent, and the only option a hard slog to keep body and soul together. The work may be almost entirely servicing the wants and needs of the tourists, or making things try to to sell them, or finding new ways to fleece them.

All these people must co-exist, and establish an equilibrium, which in total is the reality of the island. They all in fact need each other.

Thats how it is with SL. If it were nothing but tourists, with no-one slogging to create because they need or want to make money, there would be no content here apart from that created out of sheer enjoyment. It would not be enough.

The answer is, as in RL, accept how things are, and embrace the diversity. We don't actually have any other option.

Yes i did deal with Master Quatro as Anshe was away on a buisness trip & yes he did spend hours being helpful to me, & yes i did compliment him on how nice he had been to me , but what Master Quatro didnt say in his post was that just before Anshe returned to SL i went to him with doubts saying i`m not sure about the island after having heard a few rumours regarding Anshe & the way she conducts her buisness in SL & the way he set my mind to rest that i was doing the right thing in continuing to purchade the land & that i should ignore any rumours, because many in SL are jelous of Anshe simply because she is a woman & also an asian woman who has made a success of her buisness in SL so to ignore all rumours started through jelousy from others at the way Anshe succesfully makes money because she is a really nice person who does all she can to make her clients happy in any way she can...Well Quatro if you call Anshe arriving geunting a few words to you & practically ignoring me & then about to leave what i still beleived to be my island without deeding it to me (oh & i didnt understand how the word deedeing was construde at that time) & i had to shout loudly to her reminding her that she hadnt made it possible for me to build on the land yet she mutterd something not sure what as i find Anshes mutterings hard to understand thats when she bothers to mutter anything at all she finnaly did what was necessary to make it possible for me to build on the land & Quatro i didnt find Anshe a nice asian woman with much understanding or sympaty for others as was told to me by you, when i came to you with the rumours i had heard you didd all to make me disbeleive any rumours you did not offer to give me my money back so i could maybe have time to think you kept tight hold of it saying how i was making the right choice & telling me how happy i would be owning such a beautiful island emphasis on owning so it seems by using the word owning when you were & are fully aware i would never own the land was lying oh & while all this was going on why didnt you give me one of Anshes notecard ??? was it simply because you wanted an extra big pat on the back from Anshe for getting that one extra sale from me ?????? & yes i have taken you off my friends list as to me a friend is someone who helps if only at least being truthful & not blinding the truth just so his boss makes what to her is a few meger dollars but just remember what to Anshe are just a few dollars to a lot of us those dollars took a lot of hard work & sweat to buy & we dont want to waste them but to get something viable for our lindens I take this opportunity to thank you Quatro for masking the truth from me for not helping me to get out as i would never own the island which you took gret length to make me beleive i would own the land so yes you did spend many hours with me but many hours of simply making sure Anshe got my 60k i dont know how you sleep at night neither do i know how Anshe sleeps at night but then i guess curling up in bed with all those dollars makes you feel all warm & fuzzy inside sad very sad to say the least