do i or dont i own land i bought & paid for from Anshe Chung

I contend that those who are trying to prove that they "own" this land are the ones engaging in semantics. The rest of us are looking at this quite literally.

You are locked out from the buy and sell functions. Therefore you do not own it. You must have your landlord sell it, or mickey mouse with giving up a group you may not wish to give up. Even then, the landlords recommend you invlove them, so they can talk to the newcomer. The very fact that you have a sim landlord speaks to the fact that you are simply in possession of a glorified lease, that's been adorned with marketspeak.

Coco, here's the thing, I am paying the same tier you are paying. I am not losing out over time. That is what we are saying here. We, who are renting at the tier price are actually saving money. When I left Dreamland, after selling at a loss, I had a bankroll of money and was still paying the same tier.

I'm sorry you didn't know this. Hugs.

I am glad we are in agreement, making informed choices is for the best and as long as you were informed and made that choice, it's all good. It's when all the information isn't readily available that is the problem.

Also I just have to point out that I am not losing out over time as you stated in your previous post. You could have the same lot in Hiro Queso's sims and others like it without spending any money, so I guess it is buying for less. If to use your terminilogy, I guess I did buy from Hiro Queso, he just didn't charge me anything.

Wait a minute - with Hiro, do you get to resell your lot?

I remember seeing the figures for renting vs buying vs rent to buy, in Azure Islands, and I remember choosing to buy instead. I did that to come out ahead in the long term.

coco

I just came across this on a Dreamland advertising hoarding.

"2. Who is responsible for Dreamland?
Dreamland runs on simulators that ANSHECHUNG.COM is leasing from Linden Lab. "

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Does not "leasing simulators" imply leasing hardware ?
Surely "runs on" can only mean on actual hardware ?

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In fairness, I've just read the rest of it, and I see some improvements in communication. It talks at one point about buying a "deed" rather than buying land:
"You can purchase deeds for land in Dreamland."

And it does make clear that as an ultimate resort Anshe can take the land back from you.

So it's not all bad, and maybe on balance it's better than previous literature. Perhaps I am nitpicking about the "simulator" language. It just makes me feel uneasy like I'm glimpsing someone plotting a brainwashing campaign against my trusted government (which, sick though it may sound, is how I find I think of the LL organisation).

No - I mustn't be mean. It IS an improvement and suggests that she is trying to recognise that some of the concerns we express about people being misled may have just a little validity. Thanks Anshe - it is more balanced presentation than I have read from you in the past. I still don't like you using this "buy" language at all, but if you must, the wording on this hoarding is an improvement.

Ellie, I really don't know what else we are leasing from Linden Lab than simulators. Many people even say they "own" sims and the Lindens even talk about "buying sims" and "selling sims" every day.

The notecard you found is many months old and also mostly identical with what I posted on the Wiki. It remained almost unchanged since March and actually predates most forum discussions. Since 7 months, everybody who is interested in buy land in Dreamland is asked to read and understand this notecard first.

What I think you should really look at is the confusing, contradicting and sometime not logical use of language in Second Life (or virtual reality) in general. The whole concept of what you "own" and what rights you actually have in Second Life is very fuzzy. Is Linden$ really money? Is "land" really land? Do you really "own" your "car" in Second Life? Is it one "car"? Can you sue Linden Lab if it is deleted from your inventory? Do I scam you if I "sell" you one "car" and tell you that you become "car owner"? There is many contradicting things if you apply RL logic and law. It is simply not fair to try to pick apart my use of terminology when I simply follow what Linden Lab, other SL businesses and pretty much everybody in SL do and say.

I just came across this on a Dreamland advertising hoarding.

"2. Who is responsible for Dreamland?
Dreamland runs on simulators that ANSHECHUNG.COM is leasing from Linden Lab. "

The use of language set me back with a shock. Am I getting paranoid, or is there a picture beginning to emerge here of a deliberate policy of distorting the use of words to portray AnsheChung.com as increasingly equivalent to Linden Labs, and of downplaying LL's significance ?

Does not "leasing simulators" imply leasing hardware ?
Surely "runs on" can only mean on actual hardware ?

Subtly implying that AC employees are in charge of and operating computer servers ? That AC is leasing hardware to run and operate under its own control?

Does not the portrayal of Linden Lab hint that the "simulators" might just as well have been "leased" from someone else ? Downplaying LL's role as the one unique creator and owner of the entire world - the only organisation from which any SL functionality at all can be obtained.

It's subtle, it can be defended, but on balance isn't this beginning to add up to a deliberate attempt to give a newcomer a wrong impression of what is going on here ?

Tell me if I am being over-sensitive. But why did the quoted sentence strike such a bad chord when I saw it up on the billboard ? I just can't help seeing it as another attempt to subtly deceive.

Opinions ? Smacked bottom ?

In Anshe's defense I feel I have to state that "leasing land" is indeed the most accurate way of putting it. Before Anshe was even born, before 1.2 and even before the infamous December 4th focus group meeting where the new pricing changes were disclosed under NDA to the FIC, a certain Linden had privately told me they were thinking of "leasing land".

The dictionary definition of lease is "A contract granting use or occupation of property during a specified period in exchange for a specified rent"
Applied to this specific domain:

"A contract (between Anshe and Linden) granting use or occupation of property (simulators) during a specified period (one month) in exchange for a specified rent (tier)"

Furthermore, Anshe is entirely correct in her criticism of the way people throw about the word "own" like they knew what it means.
If you actually OWNED a server, you could legally ask LL to return you the physical machine once you were done using it for SL simulation. If you actually OWNED the simulator software, you could get a hard copy of it on a DVD.

I don't think the problem is really with the semantics of the word own, but rather with the understanding of how to sell. On Mainland, selling involves a few clicks. In Private Sims when one wants to sell, it takes a whole lot more.

Since you (or your workers) must be involved in every sale in Dreamland, I am assuming that you have an idea of who is selling the Dreamland to who and for how much.

I just looked into database and found you originally bought your land in Dreamland April 10th. ...

I just looked into database and found you originally bought your land in Dreamland April 10th. At that time you were able to enter some price and click FOR SALE checkbox on your land in Dreamland, the land would appear as FOR SALE in land finder and on the world map. People would easily find your land, fly there, see the price, then they would click BUY. After that one error message would be displayed, but they would read on land description that they need contact you to complete sale. Which they would do, pay you, and have us transfer land ownership deed.

Some time later (more than one month after Dreamland started and almost two months after I told the land Linden of our plans) Linden Lab changed the client and destroyed our ability to easily advertise our land. This means that in your case and the case of 100+ other land owners who bought early in Dreamland, it was Linden Lab who gave you one hard time.

But everybody who buys in Dreamland since that "big nerf" experiences the land buy/sell process himself. Unlike you, who probably originally found your land showing in land finder and as "for sale" on world map and then probably were disappoint 5 months later that you could not put land back as "for sale" the same way (because meanwhile Linden Lab and not us took away that ability from you), everybody who buy after the change actually finds the land by any of these:

- Listed for sale on SLExchange.com
- Listed for sale in forums or as "land sale" in classifieds list inside SL
- Knows land owner
- Asked Dreamland staff for land and was taken to it (we don't discriminate between land for sale by residents and new land we add)
- Explored Dreamland and found FOR SALE signs (probably most common)

So people originally buy in same way as they later may sell. What is more clear than people experience the process themself?

Most people in Dreamland who sell, I think about 75%, sell with about 1 L$ per sqm loss to other resident. But you sold your land to land baron with 2.4 L$ per sqm loss because you could no longer afford pay your tier and had to get out fast. So that was 0.6 L$ per sqm per month. This was worst case in Dreamland. This is better than what I see happen on mainland every day when people want buy some mature island and then have to sell quick.

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Most people in Dreamland who sell, I think about 75%, sell with about 1 L$ per sqm loss to other resident. But you sold your land to land baron with 2.4 L$ per sqm loss because you could no longer afford pay your tier and had to get out fast. So that was 0.6 L$ per sqm per month. This was worst case in Dreamland. This is better than what I see happen on mainland every day when people want buy some mature island and then have to sell quick.

Yes, I couldn't afford to pay my tier. I took the money I got from you, much less than what I paid, and gave a portion to Hiro Queso to cover the cost of one month tier without any up front payment.