do i or dont i own land i bought & paid for from Anshe Chung

But Coco, that's the biggest problem, there won't be any profits. When you sell, you will have a hard time explaining to people what they are buying, why they have to wait for this 3rd person to be in the middle for you to sell and why you have to pay tier to another person.

When I sold, I ended up selling at a lost. I don't think anyone else has sold at a profit. How can there be a profit when there is other land available in the same sim?

There were people in Dreamland selling at profit. And in majority of sims in Dreamland the land is sold out.

If you want to talk about it in terms of "fault," it is the fault of the interface for not keeping up with innovations.

The same difficulty in selling occurs anywhere, except insofar as there are fewer people wanting to buy land under these unique arrangements than wanting to buy without the added constraints of buying from the "actual" landowner.

And it is definitely not a foregone conclusion that you will lose money. As I said, I think I could get a very good price on my land in Azure Islands. And considering the way the place is growing, and how beautiful it is, I imagine most people could get their purchase price back, if they had the time to do it (and not just need a quick sale), and could even make a profit. Just as they can when buying from any other seller.


Nonetheless, there is a thriving populace ready and willing to "buy" in Azure Islands. Surely no one thinks that all those people are just being bamboozled?

Both are renting in the sense that the person "buying" the Sim doesn't *really* own it. Both are NOT renting, though, in the sense that the renter can't resell his property and keep the profit, whereas the "buyer" can.

I understand that. And with renting, you can STILL get zoning. That is also available on Azure Islands.

But for others, like me, it is logical to "buy" the land. That's why the option is so successful. When a second parcel came up near my land on Azure Islands, I could have rented it. Or I could have "bought" it. I chose to "buy" it.

coco

Yes, Lecktor, I realize there is a semantics problem in the whole deal. That's why I have always put "buy" and "tier" in quotes. Which, by the way, I would not expect the land owners to do, as that would have the effect of trivializing the whole thing, and thus giving the impression that they really don't take their responsibilities seriously.

And yes, Lecktor, I think you're funny, too.

coco

O really? thats great! Then my rl life friend Joey Eisenberg is due a refund of $L10,000 as he bought land from you on Provinice Town and paid $L20,000 for it, when he decided to cancel his buy/rental he attempted to contact you and you never replied to him, when he released the land no money or anything returned to him either! I will let him know to expect half that back, he will pleased

You forget that they asked all sim owners to desist from using that option, which was available by mistake, until they could reprogram the system to disable it. You aggresively refused to comply, and argued philosophical points about you having every right to claim you were selling land - exactly the same thing you claim now.

The delay you cite as evidence that they did not mind or care was simply the length of time it took them to do the reprogramming required. They didn't acquiesce. They asked sim-owners not to take advantage, and you refused the request.

You even seized this brief window of advertising opportunity to target the most vulnerable via the land-sales list, pushing a version of "first land" to those least able to understand that what they were being offered was in fact not land ownership at all.

I am amazed you have the effrontery to recall this disreputable period to our minds. I did everything I could to dissuade you. Posting in forum, explaining, exhorting, threatening, IM's. Begging you not to target newbies. Enough to earn your undying enmity.

All to no avail. You claimed to see nothing wrong with it. As you still do. Just as you still offer a special "land purchase" deal to vulnerable newbies today, highly advertised in-world. How many of those newbies, Anshe, are equipped to really understand that their land will still belong to you? However many notecards you may pass to them ?

I'd really like to see these notecards, by the way. I have serious doubts about how clear and unbiassed they are.

In fact, what both happens on mainland and in places like Dreamland or Azure Islands is the buying, selling and trading of lease agreements. So what you really "own" is one not legally binding agreement with Linden Lab, ANSHECHUNG.COM or Gigas.

The term "land ownership" has become standard and widely used for this kinda thing in Second Life though.

Exactly my own thought. How can there be a profit when there is other land available in the same Sim?

Well, several ways. First, you might have a very nice spot in that Sim, as I do. All spots aren't alike. The Sim owner prices them as if they all were, but my property - on the boardwalk overlooking the ocean - is pretty good. Plus, there is the size of what you are going to sell.

My other group officer lives between my two parcels. Neither of us would sell without each other, unless there was some unforseen emergency. That means we have what - more than 4000 square meters? - of prime waterfront land. Someone might want a large parcel, not a smaller one for sale.

Secondly, at a fairly soon point in time, all the parcels in that Sim get bought as an original buy. What happens next is, everything on that Sim (except for people who defaulted on their tier) is going to be sold by the original purchasers, such as me and my other officer. The Sim has become ESTABLISHED. The current residents are thus able to get more than they original paid.

Also, each Sim rolled out by Nexus and Adam is different in landscape (there is one that is all little islands, and one that is snow), and sometimes in purpose (there is a shopping sim). Someone might prefer one area over another for aesthetic reasons.

In other words, we aren't always on page one, where there are always original, brand new parcels for sale on the same sim. The sim gets developed, and becomes established, with a flavor of its own, and the established residents of that area can pretty much set their own prices the way people do on the mainland.

coco

We were never approached by Linden Lab or asked to change anything we do in Dreamland. There was one discussion about wether or not it was necessary or fair by Linden Lab to remove non-mainland sales from the land finder. There was one personal disagreement between one Linden employee and me about terminology. But there was never mention that any of our practise would be negative and no requests whatsoever were issued to change what we are doing.

In fact, two weeks after SL 1.6 patch when the programmers found out how the land listing was used I explained to them what we do and why we do it. This made them decide to leave things be as they were. Only weeks later it was then decided to change the land listing and add the classifieds section as alternative.

But why go through any of that if you don't have to? That's my only quibble with the whole thing. Why put a large amount of money up front if it's not necessary. Unless you just have extra money you can just have sitting around.

But Coco, as long as you are happy. I just think everyone deserves to know all the facts, and I think you can agree with this. If some of these people who didn't understand the system had just rented in actual rentals, they might have avoided being upset. Not everyone has the same experience.

Anshe yes i i`md you once & once only i dealt with Master Quatro as the 1 time i im`d you i got an off line message when it clearly shoiwed you was on line !"!!!!! i received NO notecards from YOU or anyone!!!!!! i initially saw the island while looking aroumd SL i havent been in SL that long maybe a month & am still learning with regards to Buying Renting land ect... What upste me greatrly was the fact that after paying Master Quatro for the island i had to wait a week for you to return from a buisness trip with no land to call home!!! & yes i did that willingly because i knew nothing about you or how you run your buisness at that point !!!!!! It wasnt until i realised just what power you had over me *& all other ppl who have purchased land from you or who think they have purchased land* all because i had a security system installed on what i thought was MY island but unfortunatley the warning messages bled onto a neighbours lot that started me thinking about all the *RULES* of yours & at that point i decided to sell the land i am not a young WOMAN!!!!! & not in the best of health in fact my doctors have told me i can drop dead at any moment from Cardio Myopathy along with Diabetes Thrombosis & a few other illnesses the last thing i want in sl is trouble i just wanted sosmewhere to call MINE somewhere to go to be quiet to invite sl friends over for a chat to make nice with out any hassel & what do i get HASSEL HASSEL HASSEL !!!!!!

all through the fact i was stupid enough to trust firstly Master Quatro & then YOU you are obviousley a succesful buisness woman in SL & i wish you luck with that i`m not against any one making a profit if the can do it in a way that doesnt infringe on the human rights of others... & that is something youre concience has to deal with as for me my concience is clear i did nothing wrong but trust you & your so called Angels & in trusting i`ve ended up losing 30000 lindens well thats fine you keep the money you obviousley need it to feed your ego & yes i am now angry hurt & upset & sat here with my GTN spray for my heart to stop chest pain as i write this post i never tell anyone on line anything regarding my health normally it is personal & private & ppl go to such as SL to get away from RL probs & i now feel i`ve been forced to type this to let ppl know i am not plotting or planning against you i dont even know you i had never heard of you or your angels unti;l the undortunate day i got myself trapped in your web !!!!!!

thank you for taking the time to read my initial post & also taking the time to answer in here i justtv want to say the only reason i initially posted was to try & make sure other ppl especially those who are not 100% familiar with how sl works to help them maybe understand & get the full picture from every angle before buying renting or anything else to do with land with high costs but it seems this has turned into something i didnt intend especially since Anshe seems convinced i am trying to get at her i can assure you i am not what reason would i have i dont know her anything & everything i haver said in any post has been nothing but the truth & fact!!!!!! i have nothing to hide!!!!!! well before i get upset yet again over this i should leave this forum for now again thank you all for your posts hugzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Right, and I believe the people in this business - including Nexus Nashe and Anshe - do about all that is humanly possible to try to explain the differences to potential buyers. By "humanly," I mean notecards and other materials; making sure old owners tell the new ones what the set-up is; and being on hand in person to answer individual questions whenever possible.

Why go through it if you don't have to? Why "buy" when you can rent?

Well, several reasons. My first one was that I was a basic member, and had no other way of having land besides renting. I had rented, and I preferred to have the advantages of "owning," even though they were not as good with Nexus on the mainland compared to the advantages of "owning" from Nexus on a private sims Gigas now has.

Secondly, when I originally bought land on Meins, I talked to Adam Zaius, and to Nexus. I loved what they were doing with the land (which was their first at this sort of thing, I believe), and at that point I couldn't rent there, I had to buy. So after about ten minutes with them, I made my decision: These guys were trustworthy, and worth investing in. I knew I was investing in them, and in their trustworthiness.

(P.S. I didn't have a lot of money just sitting around, though I know some do. I have played enough online games, though, to know to save for a rainy day, cause there will always be something I might want that I don't yet know about, and this turned out to be that thing! I had enough left over to live there for about two weeks, and had to play a lot of bingo and slingo, lol.)

The same would apply to Anshe. I would know, when I purchased from her, that I considered her trustworthy (which I do).

When I bought my second parcel of land from Nexus, I did have the option of renting, rent-to-own, or buy. I still chose buy. Why? Because I am still investing in them!

With renting, you can't "invest" in anything. You are just renting. When you "buy," you make an investment in the sim itself. You take a risk that you will be able to sell it, and you get the opportunity to sell it for a profit. (I have no intention of selling right now, by the way.) It's the same investment that you make when you are buying from the Lindens or from other sellers in the regular way, with all the very same risks. The only additional risk is that your true landowner will go bust and abscond with all the money.

I agree, too, that the whole system is fraught with its own inherent difficulties. That is because it wasn't a system thought up by and planned for by the Lindens. But given that, there are still a lot of people who want the buy option, and are happy to have it, even if it means working around the system, and taking the additional risk that the landowner will poof with all the land and the funds.

Unfortunately, despite the true landowners best efforts, there will always be situations where a person didn't understand or something else goes awry. I think, though, that the true landowners do their best in these circumstances - that is, the best they can do without just giving away the farm.

coco

Oh dear - here we go again. Are you seriously expecting us to see no difference in standing or in powerfulness between yourself and our all-powerful SL-god, Linden Labs ? That a resident's relationship with you is equivalent to her relationship with them ?

That you have the power to transfer land ownership, when in fact only LL and their computers can do that ? When in fact you continue to own the whole sim, and retain your full rights over every part of it unaltered ? When you simply do not have the power to sell anything less than the whole thing ?

The only possible thing that "land-ownership" can mean in a world owned by LL and hosted on their computers is "ownership registered and recognised by the system servers". This you cannot transfer.

I'm sorry, Anshe, but this argument seems to me to be nothing but convenient nonsense. I might take it more seriously if I could avoid seeing how hugely it is in your financial interest to believe it, and above all to say it, and try to convince others.

The success of your whole private sim empire is substantially founded on this abuse of language, and its attempted justification via perverted philosophical nit-picking. It is only understandable that you will fight to the death to preserve your right to misdescribe your tenancies as "land sales". What other choice do you have ?

Well, in my final remark on this thread for now, I will say that the same could be said of Nexus: That the success of his whole private sim empire is substantially founded on this abuse of language, and misdescribing the set-up as "land sales."

Their success is not predicated on that, and they aren't trying to misdescribe the sales by calling them "sales." Though it would probably be good, considering what you have said, to come up with some other term.

I understand that Anshe saw nothing wrong with listing these things in First Land, etc., on the Find, but I did. I disagreed with her and with Prokofy Neva at the time on that very issue. But I understand her viewpoint is different, and believe she can have that different viewpoint and still be ethical. I just disagree on that particular issue. Which is no longer at issue.

coco

Well, I know that in at least one of Anshe's sims, there is land for "sale" from Anshe. A good bit. The sim has been there a good while. I have a friend who lives there. She is pondering "selling" her land, but is in sort of a pickle with reagrds to that. How is she supposed to compete with the price of land that Anshe offers in that same sim? She can't. Why would another player buy from her in that sim, when they an get it cheaper from Anshe? You claim that she gets to "keep the profit". I highly doubt there will be any profit - she will have to match Anshe's price, then hope it sells. By the looks of the list in the link below, People aren't clamoring to buy there. So she may end up settling for "selling" it back to Anshe for 1/2 of what she paid... I find this prospect sort of surreal - "selling it back", when she was only leasing it in the first place.

http://www.anshechung.com/index.php?fct=GO_SIM&sim=Miyajima&BPUSER=c7cfacbc2622d99ff0679021f28effaf


Then why is this thread here? This isn't about "what Coco believes". This is about a player who didn't get the info. Unless you are calling Kismet a liar. If you are, then you should just say as such, rather than insinuating that she is by extolling the nature of your own experience.

In RL, I love Target Stores. They have always corrected any issues I have had, have fair prices, and sell almost everything I could need. However, my mom refuses to shop there, because she has had several bad experiences. See where I am going with this?

Just because you had a great experience, doesn't mean that everyone else has or will.

People aren't nearly as dumb as others would wish.

TY...This and all your other posts have been VERY eye-opening.

I have seen this thread progress/digress whichever you prefer...and this one point struck me as interesting. As one of SL's largest landholders Anshe, you can't help but realize, (as I know full well you're quite an intelligent individual), that buy owning the majority of the supply - you have a major impact on the value of people's land.

Case in point, I had approximately 28,000m2 of land in an old sim, full terraform, and no bordering sims. I felt it was a sweet spot. I was curious as to what ANSHECHUNG.com might value this land at and the quote to me was $80,000L. After laughing for about 5 minutes at the insulting offer, I chose to sell on my own. It took 2 days to sell, for what this land was valued in my opinion (albeit I am not land speculator - I can do math from what's in the supply chain). I sold for $175,000L with no hesitation from the purchaser and didn't even have to wait long. I broke even. No gain no loss, but I don't login to SL for profit, I login for an escape. I was happy my ROI was 100% (minus land use fees - which I assume are just that - fees for my use), and I enjoyed the use of my land for a year.

So who's fault is it that those you reference in the quote are taking serious loss? I can't help but think this kind of marketing (which most of Anshe's posts have embedded within) in this thread is making your "Dreamland" a more viable option to some - yet it is due to your control over supply that your above statement might even hold water.

People - you can break even on mainland sales, you can lose, or heck, even profit. You might be able to do the same in Dreamland. You can choose to live where ever you want. If you choose to rent/buy whatever the correct term is...you have to KNOW there is RISK.There is RISK if you "buy" from LL. RISK if you "borrow" from Anshe or other renters. I put my faith in LL as they control every aspect of my experience. I need not add more control to others that login as a user just as I do.

I sure hope new players going through the new orientation phases are given some more insight to Land and how this all works. It is an overwhelming experience when you join SL, and there are certinaly wolves clawing at the gate to take advantage of some who enter.

(emphasis mine)

Huh? and huh? respectively

I never claimed you were aproached by LL, Anshe. But they made their position very clear in a hotline reply when Blaze Spinnaker asked, effectively, if it was allowable for him to do what you were doing. And I repeatedly pointed this ruling out to you both publically and privately, asking you to stop.

I made two statements in the post you just responded to, one of which you deny (that you were aware of a ruling), the other ignore (that you subsequently targetted newbies).

I can now prove them both.

I stated that LL had ruled private-island land should not be advertised in "land sales" just because the software allowed it. I have found the hotline reply with this ruling:
/invalid_link.html

Blaze asked whether it was permissible to advertise private sim land in this way (you, Anshe, were doing it vigorously at the time)

I quote the reply, from Robin :


This posting was not directly to you, Anshe, but I pointed it out to you several times, yet you went on specifically targeting newbies, as well as others, via the very same landsales list Blaze was told to refrain from using in the final sentence ("Until then, you'll need to....".

And you kept doing it, despite my appeals and exhortations in the light of " island land that's available is really a rental." and "Being able to list the land in the Land Sales directory is misleading."

Can I prove what you did ? The snapshot included in this post is of the landsales list taken on 7th May 2005, fifteen days after the reply to Blaze. These special offerings for newbies were, of course, not land sales at all, and this is only the first page of them. The Tiger Creek ones were yours too. The selling price of course is low, but the rental profit is highest on these small plots, with the tier-equivalent rent paid by the tenant being 3.28 times the tier paid by the landlord.

You were offering other (non-newbie) land in the same way during that period, at a full "purchase-price" which made it appear like a proper sale, except that it was just sufficiently cheaper to undercut all the poor genuine sellers, but not so low that buyers would realise there was something odd. Most would only realise when they arrived to view the plot, and found after all the travelling that they could not click and buy. The "bait-and-switch" was complete, and the sales pitch could begin, via notecard and website. Both types of offer continued extensively until finally prevented by the promised patch, which took longer than many of us had hoped.

A post from me (as Lyndar Lehane) on the same day as the snapshot quotes the reply to Blaze, shows the same snapshot, and states that I am about to IM you with this same information in case you missed it.

It is here:

/130/5f/45376/1.html#post482007

It was this incident of the newbie-targeting in defiance of Robins clear statements on the issue that finally decided me about you, Anshe, and convinced me of your basically unscrupulous self-interest. And that your pseudo-philosophical nit-picking defensiveness about what "land sale" means is just a cover for that self interest.

It's a conclusion I was slow and sorry to reach, but I'm afraid it still stands.

I can only assume that the 'disagreement on terminology" that Anshe and Robin had (as stated in one of her earlier posts) was exactly this one. Which, of course is the crux of the matter.

Nor did I say it did, Nolan. I said what I believe. That is, what I have experienced, my reasoning, and my beliefs and judgments. I stated that I would have purchased from Anshe as readily as I purchased from Nexus.

This isn't about what Coco believes, huh? That's a good one. It's about what everyone ELSE believes, though, right? I suppose it isn't about my experiences and my knowledge either. Let everyone ELSE - many of whom haven't even "bought" land in this manner - contribute to the thread. But if the post says "coco" after it, then, oh by all means, rush in here to make sure everyone knows that it's not about what coco thinks.

And then also toss in that I'm calling Kismet a liar, just for good measure. All because I stated my own experiences in this matter and explained the reasoning behind the choices I have made, would make, and will make in the future.

coco

Just now noticed a couple of posts I had missed earlier. This is definitely one of those through-the-slats cases where regardless of how it all happened and came about, Anshe should definitely refund all the money.

P.S. That would be what I would do. However, I will add that I don't know the details of this whole interaction, and it doesn't involve me, so I'm just saying, that is how I would *probably* approach it at this point (or might not). But of course, just because that is what coco might do (and might not);, doesn't mean that is what everyone would or should do. I should keep my mouth shut rather than make posts quite like this one.

coco

You were speaking in absolutes.

If you're going to do so, I will point out the flaw in that logic. That logic being everyone gets the needed info, and that anyone should understand how it works, just because you and I happen to understand.

The part about calling her a liar came about because you stated, in absolutes, that you "believe" that all people get the necessary info.

"Right, and I believe the people in this business - including Nexus Nashe and Anshe - do about all that is humanly possible to try to explain the differences to potential buyers."

In this case, "all that was humanly possible" wasn't done.

If you didn't mean that you were doubting Kismet's claim, then I apologize. It sounded as though you were, but being human, I am not beyond misinterpreting things, and hence being mistaken.

It's got nothing to do with experience, and that is my point. I think nearly everyone in this thread understands exactly how it works. It has to do with misleading terminology and a person who wasn't adequately informed of the details of the "purchase". One doesn't have to have "bought" land in this manner to understand the way these systems work, or the nuances of this particular incident. Be aware that you have no idea who does or does not live on rented land. I have a "workshop" parcel in Achemon where I build my projects, yet I live on a private sim - on "bought" land.

Now, I have a another point to make here. I think that the defense, "Linden Lab really just leases land too" is a non sequitur.

Sure they do, but they do it in an entirely different manner. They lease land to SLer's, and Anshe sub-leases. Furthermore, Anshe does not own the SL code. She does not own the SL servers. Anshe is not necessarily here until the day LL closes it doors.

Anshe is only able to sub-lease because of an oversight when the ability to deed land to groups came about. I doubt LL planned for it to be used to rent land out. They weren't planning on private sim rentals until they released the tools to deal with that, or at least this is how I understand it.