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SL must move beyond the Techi Wiki culture

Ardith Mifflin
Mecha Fiend
Join date: 5 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,416
04-25-2005 14:46
From: Lordfly Digeridoo
http://www.lordfly.com/SL/FICLordfly.jpg


That figure looks like the Bizarro love child of Charlie Chaplin and the Buddha... no offense intended to either Marcos or yourself. It's a lovely poster amongst an entire series of lovely posters.
Chance Abattoir
Future Rockin' Resmod
Join date: 3 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,898
04-25-2005 14:48
From: Ardith Mifflin
That figure looks like the Bizarro love child of Charlie Chaplin and the Buddha... no offense intended to either Marcos or yourself. It's a lovely poster amongst an entire series of lovely posters.


I wish the FIC logo looked less like an abstract speculum or "jesus fish";(I don't know what those are called, that's the best I could do-- sorry).
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Ardith Mifflin
Mecha Fiend
Join date: 5 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,416
04-25-2005 14:52
From: Chance Abattoir
I wish the FIC logo looked less like an abstract speculum or "jesus fish";(I don't know what those are called, that's the best I could do-- sorry).


It kind of looks like a broken infinity symbol, or the symbol that indicates proportionality. Perhaps they're supposed to be stylized salad tongs, because the FIC is always busy plundering the common salad bowl for the delicious little radishes... why won't you elitist bastards let all of us have a bite at the radish?
Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
04-25-2005 15:43
From: Ardith Mifflin
It kind of looks like a broken infinity symbol, or the symbol that indicates proportionality. Perhaps they're supposed to be stylized salad tongs, because the FIC is always busy plundering the common salad bowl for the delicious little radishes... why won't you elitist bastards let all of us have a bite at the radish?


My understanding of the original draft of the logo is that it is indeed a broken infinity, symbolizing the motto of "Almost Infinite Corruption." Isn't it corruption? Almost infinite something.

I like it. It's clever.
Johnny Ming
reznation.com
Join date: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 173
I agree with some of Blaze's statement
04-25-2005 15:44
Blaze is right about there being a "crowd" in SL that will never rock the SL world as we know it. Whether you call them the techi wiki crowd, weekend warriors, or script kitties -- there is definitely a small population in SL that thrives off of egoistic meta-materialism.

From: someone
That's what the techi wiki culture of SL has to do. It has to stop thinking about cool LSL scripts and sharing the latest prim torture and stroking each others egos and start thinking about the unwashed masses. What do they want? What will get them jazzed and want to hang out and enjoy SL? I don't know what it is, but I'm pretty sure I know what it isn't: It isn't going to be contributing to the techi wiki.


True innovation, taken from conception all the way through implementation to sales and marketing hardly ever comes exclusively from a details-oriented sole-proprietor, architect, programmer, or technician.

Perfection is the enemy of innovation. Details oriented designers and programmers would never finish the "perfect" anything without management pushing them along. So, to think that an invention is equal to innovation is ridiculous. A great RL example of this is Apple vs. Dell. Which one is considered cool? Which one sells the most units throughout the world?

SL does not lack eager and ambitious residents with amazing creative and technical abilities. Based on forum polls, many residents are IT/IS professionals in RL so they have a great jumpstart into the technical work needed to carry out the next Tringo.

Maybe we simply have a shortage of visionaries and project managers in SL. I'm venturing a guess that none of the top 50 CEOs in RL have SL accounts. Not high enough return on their investment of time and/or money for now at least. LOL

Personally, I'm here in SL for the open ended opportunity. I'm a business owner and entrepreneur in RL. If the business opportunity reveals itself and it makes sense, I hope to come up with the next Tringo - with no scripting/building experience.

I'm not "cool", but that's ok cuz I'm rich, right? :-P
Lordfly Digeridoo
Prim Orchestrator
Join date: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 3,628
04-25-2005 16:03
From: Johnny Ming


From: someone

True innovation, taken from conception all the way through implementation to sales and marketing hardly ever comes exclusively from a details-oriented sole-proprietor, architect, programmer, or technician.


What the fuck? So Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa without 40 layers of middle management above him?

Sales and marketing isn't innovation; marketing is a tool to drive sales, which is a result of someone making the product. Dittoheads and corporate managers don't make products, they generate paperwork.

From: someone

Perfection is the enemy of innovation. Details oriented designers and programmers would never finish the "perfect" anything without management pushing them along. So, to think that an invention is equal to innovation is ridiculous. A great RL example of this is Apple vs. Dell. Which one is considered cool? Which one sells the most units throughout the world?


Which one is design-oriented and which one is sales-oriented? Dell doesn't invent anything, they take commodity parts and slap "DELL" on them. They are the "worse" company, in my opinion.

From: someone

Maybe we simply have a shortage of visionaries and project managers in SL.


Pardon my techi-wiki feted FIC perfectionist designer ignorance, but why do we need them? Why does someone need 3 middle managers each pushing the "bottom line" into their face whenever they want to script something?

From: someone

Personally, I'm here in SL for the open ended opportunity. I'm a business owner and entrepreneur in RL. If the business opportunity reveals itself and it makes sense, I hope to come up with the next Tringo - with no scripting/building experience.


So basically you want to piggyback on top of the content creators so they make you rich while you "shift the new paradigm and accentuate the true market potential"? No, sorry. That works in RL, but not in SL.

LF
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
04-25-2005 16:05
From: Prokofy Neva
It isn't all just about "you and your fierce loyalties to my tribe" and shut up if I'm not in your tribe.


That's the whole point Prok. SL isn't at all like that, no matter how much you imagine or claim that it is. It's simply a completely false premise. It has been from the day you first ranted about it. It's still just as untrue today.

From: someone
I've got plenty of interest, plenty to do, and I need no help from anyone. That's why I feel perfectly obliged to engage in really needed and legitimate critizism of this skewed world.


It's only skewed in your mind. You mentioned in response to Coco that you had difficulty in getting scripters and builders involved in your projects. Do you ever stop for a moment to consider that the reason for that is because from the moment you got here you declared them enemies of the people and they may just not like you? Not people who fall into your demographic, but you personally? You can blame it on there being some kind of divided class system in SL, but since there is no divided class system in SL then it's far more likely that it's because of the way you behave. You simply refuse to put it in the proper prespctive because it requires taking personal responsiblity.
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
04-25-2005 16:12
Company Towns
:o

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Kex Godel
Master Slacker
Join date: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 869
04-25-2005 16:15
This is what I distill from the proponents of this thread:

"You geeks need to stop enjoying your esoteric form of fun, and get to work making things to entertain the rest of us."

My response:

Who the hell do you think you are to tell me what I should do with my free time?
Cienna Samiam
Bah.
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,316
04-25-2005 16:46
From: Chip Midnight
It's only skewed in your mind. You mentioned in response to Coco that you had difficulty in getting scripters and builders involved in your projects. Do you ever stop for a moment to consider that the reason for that is because from the moment you got here you declared them enemies of the people and they may just not like you? Not people who fall into your demographic, but you personally? You can blame it on there being some kind of divided class system in SL, but since there is no divided class system in SL then it's far more likely that it's because of the way you behave. You simply refuse to put it in the proper prespctive because it requires taking personal responsiblity.


Bingo. I know if this person approached me for help, I would be much less likely to give it due to their incessant shit-stirring and malcontent. Not discontent, mind you, malcontent.
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Jonquille Noir
Lemon Fresh
Join date: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,025
04-25-2005 16:51
From: Cienna Samiam
Bingo. I know if this person approached me for help, I would be much less likely to give it due to their incessant shit-stirring and malcontent. Not discontent, mind you, malcontent.


Exactly. How odd that I've never had anyone tell me to piss off when I asked them for help with something. Not once. I've had some offer to do it for money, others offer to do it for recognition, and about 10 times as many offer to do it simply for the sake of rising to a challenge and seeing if they could, at no cost to me. I've had scripts, items, animations and textures all dropped into my inventory without even asking for them, simply because I mentioned something or wondered how something would be done.

I wonder why so many talented scriptors and creators are willing to help me, when so few subsidized, priviledged, hedonistic, selfish, techi-wiki bastards are refusing to help Pork. Hmm, can't quite figure it out.
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04-25-2005 16:54
From: Kex Godel
This is what I distill from the proponents of this thread:

"You geeks need to stop enjoying your esoteric form of fun, and get to work making things to entertain the rest of us."

My response:

Who the hell do you think you are to tell me what I should do with my free time?


Kex, you still don't get it. It's time to renounce your fuck-you hedonism and accept a vow of Non-Enjoyment. Your role in Second Life from this point forward is to serve The People and not engage in creating vile, hedonistic abominations for your own pleasure. You must build for The People and only for The People.

You are the very reason why SL has fallen so far. I cry for your misguided ways, Kex.
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Chance Abattoir
Future Rockin' Resmod
Join date: 3 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,898
04-25-2005 16:58
From: Enabran Templar
My understanding of the original draft of the logo is that it is indeed a broken infinity, symbolizing the motto of "Almost Infinite Corruption." Isn't it corruption? Almost infinite something.

I like it. It's clever.


Clever... hrm... Why does their propaganda look so classy but the logo look so paint shop? I'd think the FIC would be more upscale than that. When I see the poster I think, "Hey, that looks so cool!" ... When I see the logo, I think of the time I was pooping as a little kid and I dropped a hot wheels car into the poop water and my mom fished it out with some tongs.
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Toy LaFollette
I eat paintchips
Join date: 11 Feb 2004
Posts: 2,359
04-25-2005 17:06
A TRUE person of any kind doesn't need a label. I can stand up and call myself a person. I just wish that this sniper scope-narrow society would just get off the subject of labeling--and judging--others just by what they see. If you like someone, great. If you don't, too bad. But get over it and QUIT PUTTING ON LABELS!
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Buster Peel
Spat the dummy.
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 1,242
04-25-2005 17:12
From: Andrew Linden
As far as I know the concept of a "techi-wiki" category of SL residents has not been introduced in LL design meetings, formal or informal. I foresee no need to ever bring it up -- it appears overcomplicated and my instinct is to discard it based on some mutant variation of Occam's Razor. Therefore IMHO the question as to whether the "techi-wiki" is "holding SL back" is based on a false premise.

The LL model of the SL population and how it would grow was always much simpler. From the start the theory was that SL would become an increasingly interesting place as its population grew. In the beginning would be the "early adopters" who were excited about virtual reality in general. Eventually some artists and programmers would find the feature set complete enough to express their creativity and these "content creators" would build stuff. As the content became more interesting some casual explorers would find the content compelling and would buy some of it -- "consumers". A population of consumers would provide a market for those content creators that wanted to make real money -- ta-da, a market is born that only gets more interesting as it grows.

Every person on Earth has some threshold of features/content at which point they will find SL useful and/or interesting enough to login. As SL grows more and more people will fall into the subset whose threshold has been passed. The grand plan is to push the feature set of SL and allow the population to expand until nearly everyone's threshold has been passed.

It was always the intention to start SL small and let it grow. SL 1.0 was not launched ready for 1 million residents, and it is still not ready for that many. SL is growing at a very healthy rate. In fact, LL's main challenge is to develop the platform fast enough that SL's architecture can handle the next season's population. At the moment don't see many reasons to speed up the growth rate -- if SL were to "tip" and suddenly become the next big thing such that hoards of people were joining up, then LL would be forced to throttle new accounts until SL's fundamental system was more ready.

So, even if there were some minority of residents that were "holding SL back" then I might not be inclined at the moment to ask them to let go.

Andrew, I don't think there is a claim that some *residents* are somehow holding SL back. Instead, there has been expressed the feeling that Linden's seeming catering to a particular group of residents that is the problem. Many aspects of SL seem to have been crafted for the technically savvy, with the needs of the less technically oriented people on the back burner.

The "grand plan to push the feature set" must take into account that more buttons and whizbangs isn't always the forward direction. Your challenge is to make this world seem sensible to people with different mindsets.

Buster
Johnny Ming
reznation.com
Join date: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 173
You have my stapler.
04-25-2005 17:14
Lordfly, my premise was not to suggest an Office Space business model just for the sake of having middle management and paperwork. I associate with small business because I hate the backstabbing, waste ridden corporate culture.

From: Lordfly Digeridoo
What the fuck? So Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa without 40 layers of middle management above him?


Find me a present day Da Vinci and sign him up for SL. I'll pay for his account and cover his tier costs. Da Vinci was a rennassiance man and was much more than just a painter.

Besides, Da Vinci didn't innovate anything when he painted the Mona Lisa.

From: Lordfly Digeridoo
Sales and marketing isn't innovation; marketing is a tool to drive sales, which is a result of someone making the product. Dittoheads and corporate managers don't make products, they generate paperwork.


Tinkering and creating things are not innovation either. That's my point. It takes a combination of skill sets, rarely all found in a single individual.

From: Lordfly Digeridoo
Which one is design-oriented and which one is sales-oriented? Dell doesn't invent anything, they take commodity parts and slap "DELL" on them. They are the "worse" company, in my opinion.


I'm not surprised. I respect both companies. Apple gets my vote for invention but Dell is the better innovator. I don't like Starbucks, but I respect the business people that figured out how to revolutionize public opinion on $5 coffee.

From: Lordfly Digeridoo
So basically you want to piggyback on top of the content creators so they make you rich while you "shift the new paradigm and accentuate the true market potential?


I only piggyback content creators with attractive female AVs. I tried writing a serious response but it would not be productive considering you and I are not changing our opinions.

From: Kex Godel
This is what I distill from the proponents of this thread: "You geeks need to stop enjoying your esoteric form of fun, and get to work making things to entertain the rest of us."


That's not what I'm trying to say.
Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
04-25-2005 17:19
From: Johnny Ming
Find me a present day Da Vinci and sign him up for SL. I'll pay for his account and cover his tier costs. Da Vinci was a rennassiance man and was much more than just a painter.


Da Vinci's comes along ince in a generation. But the TYPE of person he was, we have in SL. I know some.

From: Johnny Ming
Tinkering and creating things are not innovation either. That's my point. It takes a combination of skill sets, rarely all found in a single individual.


I beg to differ. On both points. Almost all of the innovations in SL have come from single people, or most two. Rarely have groups been very successful.

From: Johnny Ming
I'm not surprised. I respect both companies. Apple gets my vote for invention but Dell is the better innovator. I don't like Starbucks, but I respect the business people that figured out how to revolutionize public opinion on $5 coffee.


That's not innovating. That's just better marketing. It's convincing people innovation has taken place when, in fact, it hasn't. Innovation would be somehow making that coffee WORTH five bucks a cup.
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Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
04-25-2005 17:29
In his day, Da Vinci had sponsors -- he had the equivalent of what Johnny Ming is offering when he says he'll pay for someone's account.

There'd be no Reinaissance men if there weren't Medicis and wealthy patrons who enabled the arts to flourish in Venice and elsewhere. And those people didn't make their money off the equivalent of scripting or building in their day, they did land and commodities trading. So while Lordfly is ranting about 3 layers of middle management, he should just think more in terms of who has commissioned his buildings, and who has helped him buy college textbooks. DId those people "get in his way? Sheeesh.

Actually, I've always found scripters when I've needed them and I've paid them well, what they asked. There are people playing a different game and living in a different world than all of you -- they just provide goods and services in the economy to other people, without being "Friends" and giving them huggy bearz. The idea that I have to be "nice to the right people" and never criticize them in the forums in order to get ahead is tripe. I utterly reject it. I've gotten all my scripting needs met by paying normal people to do a normal service in a normal environment -- not the favour-bank guild wiki.

You are misinterpreting what I said to Coco -- which is what happens when you are brand new and you come and say "I have a great idea, let's do the yellow pages, I need scripters and designers" etc. etc. I did that kind of post LONG BEFORE I ever criticized a soul on here, and ever had anything deemed as "snarky". The record shows that! Just go google it. And it was hard to put out a call like that and get any kind of serious response because the way jobs get done is only through connections. It is still not a mobile and fluid world. You can still only get by on not what you know, but who you know. I'm simply trying to enlarge the space away from it, and I am fortunate that I have been successful in doing this so far.

Andrew Linden has made a profoundly troubling intervention here, sanctioning the throttling of his world by arrogant tekkies, and I think this really calls from some more robust response.
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Cienna Samiam
Bah.
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,316
04-25-2005 17:35
From: Prokofy Neva
Andrew Linden has made a profoundly troubling intervention here, sanctioning the throttling of his world by arrogant tekkies, and I think this really calls from some more robust response.


As you wish...

YOU LOSE, JERK!

GET THE FUCK OVER IT!

Robust enough? :)
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Johnny Ming
reznation.com
Join date: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 173
04-25-2005 17:35
From: Reitsuki Kojima
Almost all of the innovations in SL have come from single people, or most two. Rarely have groups been very successful.


And to bring the conversation full circle....... that's the point that I think Blaze was originally trying to make. Recently, the only SL innovation that has made a huge impact was Tringo.

So "if you content creators are so smart" where is your great idea, completely brought to market and causing a craze and more SL addiction?

I completely agree with you that groups have not been successful. I think that's partly because of the crippled group functionality in SL.

From: Reitsuki Kojima
That's not innovating. That's just better marketing. It's convincing people innovation has taken place when, in fact, it hasn't. Innovation would be somehow making that coffee WORTH five bucks a cup.


To that I say, it's worth five bucks to the people that buy it. You and I may not think its worth $5 but nothing is based on what people not willing to buy are willing to pay.

For now, "piggybacking" seems to translate to SL in the form of land barons, mall owners, and commission sales kiosks (affiliates). Most things in SL currently don't require groups but that could change with the advent of a new innovation.
blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
04-25-2005 17:38
I think Andrew's statement was dead on, except in one respect - the techi wiki *do* exist.
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Lordfly Digeridoo
Prim Orchestrator
Join date: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 3,628
04-25-2005 17:38
From: Johnny Ming

To that I say, it's worth five bucks to the people that buy it. You and I may not think its worth $5 but nothing is based on what people not willing to buy are willing to pay.

The marketing didn't make it happen and I think we agree on that part.


Yes it did. If Starbucks hadn't been branded as "premium quality coffee", it wouldn't cost 5 bucks a cup. It's coffee, same as Maxwell House or Big Bob's Bitchin Coffee Barn.

LF
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
04-25-2005 17:39
From: Prokofy Neva
Andrew Linden has made a profoundly troubling intervention here, sanctioning the throttling of his world by arrogant tekkies, and I think this really calls from some more robust response.


Alrighty then, enjoy battling your imagined enemies in your bizarro world that doesn't actually exist.
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Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
04-25-2005 17:40
From: Prokofy Neva
Andrew Linden has made a profoundly troubling intervention here, sanctioning the throttling of his world by arrogant tekkies, and I think this really calls from some more robust response.


You know, I'm going to commit a cardinal sin here. I'm going to use a phrase that even I don't like, under normal circumstances, because I can't think of a more polite way to say this. I'm going to calmly explain before hand, which I'm doing right now. The phrase is "Who are you". It isn't meant to be derisive or imply I'm better than you. It's a legitimate question, in this case, that has been puzzling me for some time. But with this response, I simply can't keep putting it aside.

So here goes. *dons asbestos*

The majority of the players don't agree with you that (insert your problem of the month) exists. (Before you cite the "vast masses" or whatever that agree with you, don't bother. Nothing you could possibly do could ever convince me your view is held by more than a select fiew, hardly even enough to be called a valid minority, much less a majority. You can think what you want, I simply reject your premise. The difference between my arbitrary view and yours is I have 'proof'; the forums. You have none that you are willing to present save for the tiny handful I have claimed.)

The developers of the game apparently don't agree with you that (ditto).

So who are you to decide what the direction the game needs to take is?

It would be like me moving to (insert other country here) from (insert my native country here), then demanding changes until (insert new country here) fit my view of how it should be.

Yes, I may have that "right" under the law. But do I karmicly? No. I'm just causing trouble needlessly. I shouldn't have moved to a country if I didn't like it, not move to a country I don't like and expect it to change to suit me.

There. Flame me all you want, I don't care. I never one attacked you in that post, so don't bother ARing it or whatnot. I was very careful not to say anything that was an attack. It's an honest viewpoint/question.

Make of it what you will.
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I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
Buster Peel
Spat the dummy.
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 1,242
04-25-2005 17:43
From: blaze Spinnaker
I think Andrew's statement was dead on, except in one respect - the techi wiki *do* exist.

He did not say they don't exist. He said it doesn't matter.
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