SL must move beyond the Techi Wiki culture

Cristiano, I gotta say, you insult yourself with statements like this. Not me.

You go on and on and on endlessly about how Prok is so insulting and attacks people personally, and then you make a statement like this aimed towards me.

Why do you think Prok gets defensive? I mean, just stop for a second and try to imagine why someone who got personally attacked in such an endless way would get so defensive?


As for the other..

It's a good question, here are some ideas:

- A match making service which is easy to use
- More 'community' chat sims, like a hebrew sim, a christian sim, a single mom sim, etc etc. Basically, take popular IRC chat channels and turn them into sims. No techi-wiki whiz bang features, just getting the right crowds together.

Another solution is for LL to fix bugs instead of add featurs. Ebay got to be the largest ecommerce site on the internet and it rarely added new features. I wonder why?

If some more ideas come to me, I'll try to post in this thread.

Speaking of Pathfinder, this thread is slowly spiralling out of control.

It ain't much, not being an admin, but keep it civil, folks. Debate can be had without personal attacks, and they typically begin the moment "you" is used.

Thank you. Continue.

Oh who am I kidding? Cleanup, Aisel Four.

Umm you want the Lindins to run a dating service? If anyone, users should start this business.



Again .. users should do this .. its easily done NOW .. i can think of a couple groups like this. -- well Edit -- not sims , but groups .. is no reason for them to be sims

Well then, get cracking!

That made no sense. All he did was observe the very things you were doing.

All well within the powers of the residents of SL. So, if it's not happening, why not? And don't tell me it's because of some mythical mindset or cabal.

Because eBay had one thing to do. One. Auction things. SL is a whole lot broader. Do you complain that apples should be more like oranges all the time, or just when you're discussing SL?

Good point, Jeffrey.

There are a number of people in these forums who really do get it - Buster Peel, Jeffrey, Forseti (most of the time . Cubey is pretty good, as well, but loses his patience now and then. Chip is usually good but he's got some weird spot when it comes to Prokofy and me. No idea what it is.

All I can say is try to read their responses. They are generally pretty good examples of what to do.

Jillian,

What if Joe Shcmoe (not a real avatar) posted and I replied by saying

"Joe, All your doing is showing what a sick bastard you really are"

Would I be just 'observing' what he's doing? Would that then therefore be fairly in the bounds of debate?

Absolutely not. It would be taking a theoretical conversation and twisting it into a conversation about the personalities of the individuals discussing the issues.

As for the other, interesting part:

Ebay is not just about auctioning things. It's about revolutionizing commerce and trade as we know it.

While I appreciate the gesture, tactically speaking it wasn't a good move to alienate my niche from the get-go, blaze. That said, there are plenty of relevant points to be had in this thread - they just need to be shovelled out from under seething potshots and accusations that are so typical of a forum.

If anything, that's something I don't understand - other than the fact it's entertainment.

But seriously, do keep it civil. I doubt my saying so will cause that, but it does need to be said before this turns into another "Locked" thread.

Well, that's the idea. Users should be running this, unfortunately a large user base is consumed less by doing things for the people and more for contributing to the techi wiki.

Blaze,

You can be as indignant as you want about personal attacks, you yourself make them, and then cry foul - it is a cat and mouse game you have played for a very long time. I never lament personal attacks, I'm not sure where you are getting that from. I think when someone makes targetted statements, they open themselves up for them in return. You seem to think so as well, as you often make them.

I feel no sympathy for Prokofy. He came out the gate swinging at people, insulting, and being consdescending, not the other way around. He has brought so much negativity to these forums that the constant pushing back against all the illogical hot air is to be expected.

Thank you for your concern about my statements being insulting to me - my karma is in check, worry about your own, though props on getting my name right this time.

The problem with what you are suggesting - expectant mommy sims, for example, without anything compelling for them to see/do is that there is nothing beyond what they can get on any special interest chat room web site or through Yahoo instant messenger. Part of the draw of SL is what makes Second Life exactly what it is - the limitless freedom to create. When you start lamenting the creativity, you aren't providing more of a reason for people to stay, you are providing a reason for them to pass on SL in favor of freely available alternatives with lower system resource requirements.

The stability of SL is a concern - but again, none of that is the fault of the mindset that you started this thread about. That mindset exists only in your mind, ultimately.

Absolutely, I do often make an accidental personal remark. I try hard not to and often edit my posts agressively trying to tone down the language. If I do make a personal remark, feel free to call me out on it and I'll try to alter my language.

However, sometimes I attack groups and mindsets, simply because I don't necessarily believe that individuals and groups are the same. Pathfinder and LL does, but not me. No problem.

For example, I think SL would be a very unfortunate place without Chip or Jeffrey or even you. Yet, I think the techi wiki groupthink is holding SL back.

I know that idea may be complicated but trust me, think about it and you'll see what I'm trying to say.

I admit it. It's a no-brainer why I and others react to Prok the way we do. When it comes to you, you have this bad habit of pouring gasoline, handing out matches, and then complaining when a fire starts. I think you enjoy playing devil's advocate just to watch the fireworks, and I think you're smart enough to know better. In a weird sort of way you can take it as a compliment.

I agree that dividing the world into two groups is silly. There is not a linear spectrum with "Geeks" at one end and "Consumers" at the other end. Or even a "third group" in between. Instead, I think there is a broad universe with many points of attraction.

The larger the world grows, the more subcultures will appear.

It is wrong to lump "people who make things" together in one group. There is quite a difference, for example, between an "artist" and a "craftsman". One strives to achieve a particular effect (usually visual effect), the other strives to achieve perfection. These two kinds of people often have really different personalities and motivations. Yet people lump them all together and make broad generalizations about "people who make things". This is just wrong.

Among tekkies also, there are many different flavours. Some scripters seek to achieve perfection, minimizing sim load, for example. Other scripters are happy with "anything that works", and are more interested in achieving an overall effect. These are symptoms of completely different personality and motivation. And there are other categories and subcategories of the way tekkies think and what motivates them. They are NOT all the same, they are diverse in many ways.

Some people are truly interested in learning and explore toolkits merely for the sake of understanding them. Other people learn only as a means to an end -- they learn only because they have to in order to achieve their goals. Tekkie, artist, or whatever -- there are different personalities, different attitutes, different motivations.

There is no "techie wiki culture" any more than there is, say, a "musician songswappers" culture out there that you could lump all singers and musicians into. Its just silly, and only highlights your own ignorance.

Buster

No, Blaze, I do not see what you are trying to say, because the reality of SL does not match anything you have tried to point out in this thread. Where is this group think occuring? Who are these horrible scripters who are holding back SL from becoming all it can be? The thing that is so maddening is you make these blanket statements, but provide no concrete evidence that it exists at all.

What I see is SL has flourished in the past year in ways I never could have predicted. The market is filled with an amazing amount of very creative stuff, from across the entire player base. There is more to do and see in SL than ever before, without spending a dime. How exactly is SL being held back? Answer that question succinctly, with real evidence, and I will be the first to get in line and help you change it. Until then, you are maligning a group of people whether you realize it or not, and attempting to cause a divide between the scripts and script-nots. That is just silly.

I think the problem here isn't your stance on the original issue, blaze - but how this has been phrased.

Let me make an attempt to clarify what I think you're getting at:

The rampant technical mindset in Second Life is holding it back from its potential. What we really need are people, and stuff, to make it an enjoyable place to be as-is, as opposed to one that's fun only for content creators.

Had it been phrased thusly, I cannot agree more. We need this world to flourish for the average person, just as we need those technical minds at the frontier of it, working to create a better world for the content creators. Like I mentioned earlier with "trickle down," if we (the technical minority) can create those tools for other content creators, the benefit will be a more engrossing world for the average user.

It is not that "the techie wiki crowd is out of control"; rather, it is the fact the world is still in its infancy and has a lot of growth in it to be had before more than its technical merits, alone, hold it up.

I use "growth" because I feel Second Life is absolutely poised for growth! All we need are breakthroughs for the average person - a new killer app, a game that rivals those found on the market, or just a new look on the same old toy. Even cybersex and other hedonistic ventures play their part there, as they do add to the mass appeal. People might be afraid to acknowledge that, but I feel it is the case - and I could care less for it!

This, in my opinion, is a better thesis than what we started with. Had it gone from there, I think a lot of the drama could have been avoided. It might have made the thread less appealing, but that's a decent tradeoff... no?

That is a very astute observation, Chip. It reminds me of another poster who tends to put a bunch of stuff into motion, and then cries foul when it all comes raining back down on her, accusing people of horrible personal attacks while making them, refusing to answer logical questions, and just stirring the pot. I suppose we all play a role in these forums, but the role of incendiary sycophant is a particularly irritating one.

Great points Jeffrey. What really gets me angry about the way this argument is phrased is that it's a completely unfair generalization that no one is actually qualified to make unless they know all 20000 people in SL. I resent it personally because it makes me feel that simply by virtue of being well known and successful that I'm assumed to be a snob and somehow damaging to SL. I find that incredibly insulting. One thing I love most about my in world business is that some of the things I sell have appeal across all the many myriad subcultures of SL. I get all kinds in my store, from furries to goreans to vampyres to people who rarely venture outside of the PG sims, and I love that I get to meet people from all walks of life with so many diverse interests. I think one of the greatest things about SL is how it has provided a home for so many different cultures who in the real world take a lot of abuse. Being cast as a teki-wiki-whatever (which always seems to be said with a sneer) is to me a kind of bigotry and completely contrary to what I've always loved most about SL next to the creativity... that it has always been so inclusive and free from this kind of divisive attitude. No one likes to be judged or accused of imagined motives by people they've never even met... and the people casting those stones seem to be accusing people like me of being the problem when in actuality they're the ones dividing the community. It's ignorant and narrow minded, and those are two things that always piss me off.

* applauds and hands Chip some paragraphs *

I think taking a strong stance on an issue and then letting it create real discussion and debate is more interesting than taking a weak stance on an issue and letting it vanish into the ether.

"incindeary sycophant"

Good one, Chip! And what exactly makes you think you're any better than Prokofy?

What tires me out, personally, is that people actually go along with this. Pathfinder doesn't ban you, nobody abuse reports it, and in fact nobody even complains that you constanty litter your posts with some kind of personal attack on someone.

I'm not certifiably insane.

Oh, and that's another thing that sets me off about you... you don't read or make any attempt to comprehend, apparently.

"certifiably insane"

And Prokofy didn't even post, yet you found a way to attack him viciously.

This is why he fights back, time and time again, because even when he's not posting he's being attacked.

What did I miss?

Yikes, incendary sycophant that was Cristiano's remark.

Sorry, the dual pronged attack, it was all blurring together. Sorry.

Yes, sometimes I skim over posts a bit too quickly. It's often the only way I can avoid seeing all the personal attacks getting thrown about.

Aww don't blame Chip, I said it. However, there you go getting all Prokofy like and inventing stuff that people said. Where did I say I think I am better than Prokofy? Here is an idea for you Blaze. Try taking YOUR OWN STAND on an issue, not someone elses. Quit figuring out which way the wind is blowing and instead stand up for what you believe in, with conviction. Again, you completely ignored my post asking you for evidence of all the stuff you are alleging in this thread. A statement not backed by fact is hardly a strong stance to take.

You don't seem to make any distinctions between getting bent and expressing distaste for specific individuals and making offensive generalizations about everyone who isn't me.

Prokofy did post in this thread, Blaze, accusing Schwanson and the Lindens of collusion on his new project. Chip is right, you obviously don't read, you just make statements for the hell of it.