Antiwar and Anti-Bush Rally
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a lost user
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11-10-2004 07:30
From: Billy Grace Ok, after reading this thread and for the most part trying to stay out of it I do have something to say and a question.
A comment first. One thing that this thread did do was give me some information about the Neualtinburg project. I have not been involved or even read any of the information about this project to date because I do not believe that an SL government is needed or desired by the vast majority of residents.
I will say though that after reading Talen’s passionate posts about what HE thought it was, the project would be interesting to at least explore. If this is to experiment with an SL government that is for SL and about SL, not RL, then I would be interested in being involved. If this is going to be about intermingling RL politics with SL politics I have no interest at all. If Neualtinburg is to be an extension of the political debates and discussions here on these forums then what’s the point? Really, I am asking a serious question. What is the point in that? If on the other hand it is an experiment in forming an SL government where all of the RL BS is stripped away and something new and interesting is created then you may have a chance to succeed.
Speaking as part of the conservative minority (just look at how few of us there really are in SL) I fight enough fights about my RL beliefs right here on these forums and really do not want to take that into SL. I predict that there will be very few conservatives interested in being a part of Neualtinburg if all we have to do is fight the same old battles in-world too.
I am all for free speech and all but I do feel that Talen is correct in saying that you are dooming yourselves to failure if your sole purpose is to create a liberal government dominated by Kendra, Ulrika, Kathy and the other libs that appear to be in charge. I do applaud you for the work you have done so far but for this to REALLY work you will need the support and involvement of not only your liberal brethren but from conservative people too. If this is to be a liberal club, bashing opposing views as you have to admit these very forums have become then it will be nothing more than that and die on the vine.
Ask yourselves these questions. How do we appeal to the masses? How do we get everyone involved? How do we get support from the huge majority of SLers who do not want to be governed? I don’t know if there REALLY are answers to these questions but I can tell you one thing. If you intermingle RL politics with SL politics you can go ahead and hammer the last nail in the coffin. Neither myself or dare I say any conservative SLer will have anything to do with your project, which will destroy any legitimate chance you had for success.
Ok, that said I have a BIG question for you and it is a simple one. What is this REALLY about? If it is about creating something new, something where we explore the possibility of self-government, somewhere free of all of RL politics and all of the petty BS that it brings then I will offer my support and you can contact me about how I might become involved. On the other hand if this is just going to be a place where SL politics and RL politics are intertwined, where RL agendas and bias are on display, another place where I have to fight the fight against my liberal counterparts I say no thanks. Have fun with your little liberal experiment. Ok, I suppose I have to just straight out ask since there was no response to this post. 1. Is there no interest in defining yourselves? 2. Is there no interest in involvement from anyone other than who is there now? 3. Is this group interested in diversity in political thought within Neualtinburg or is it only interested in being a forum to further a liberal agenda? 4. Is there a “big picture” in this experiment with a long term goal? 5. If so, what is it and if not, why not? After reading this thread it is obvious that your members have some differing opinions as to the direction of Neualtinburg. Why not make it perfectly clear what you are all about? |
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Lecktor Hannibal
YOUR MOM
Join date: 1 Jul 2004
Posts: 6,734
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11-10-2004 07:32
Billy, you will probably continue to get ignored until you align your planetary inclinations with the horizon terminator that exists in Ulrika's world. A full eclipse is desirable.
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YOUR MOM says, 'Come visit us at SC MKII http://secondcitizen.net ' From: Khamon Fate Oh, Lecktor, you're terrible. Bikers have more fun than people !
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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11-10-2004 07:42
From: Nolan Nash Was there ever any question about the intent behind the formation of Neualtenburg? Ulrika failed in bringing about a SL government, so she decided the best way to live out her fantasy was to suck in some of SL's most talented and wait for the right moment. Well, the moment has arisen and I hope those of you without agendas and vitriol in you very fiber will take note. For the record I am a DFLer from Minnesota who hails from a long line of DFLers. My mother and step father work for the party. I can hardly stand to talk to my own mother on the phone because she is also charged with this negative hate energy. When did riding over the backs of your own to make a point become acceptable? I voted dem <as per usual> this time around but am finding it increasingly difficult to do so, the blatant hatred is in the very least dismaying.
It is painfully obvious to me that you have all been duped by Ulrika and that the reason no charter or constitution exists is so that exactly this type of event can be held with or without the blessing of the people who pledged RL $ in the form of land tiers. Fuck em. This is MY experiment. The fact that it still went off despite the misgivings of prominent members speaks volumes.
So go on Ulrika, type up some more patronizing pseudo-sycophantic posts telling your group members how this thread is a resounding success, it's all an experiment after all right? From someone who is tired of negativity, I found this to be a surprisingly negative post. |
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
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11-10-2004 07:43
From: Lecktor Hannibal Billy, you will probably continue to get ignored until you align your planetary inclinations with the horizon terminator that exists in Ulrika's world. A full eclipse is desirable. I agree, and don't forget about the moon being present in Taurus. I find it fascinating that group members had to find out through a forum post that their contributions were going to be used to promote a political agenda. Talk about a lack of cohesiveness, respect and communication... The very fact that it's being hashed out in a public venue is very telling. I for one (if I were a projekt member) would be very insulted by this and by the fact that this rally was compared to Oktoberfest.
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a lost user
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11-10-2004 07:43
From: Lecktor Hannibal Billy, you will probably continue to get ignored until you align your planetary inclinations with the horizon terminator that exists in Ulrika's world. A full eclipse is desirable. I must say that I hope not. The project as outlined by Talen is interesting to me and worthy of looking into further. It would be a noble cause indeed. |
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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11-10-2004 07:44
From: Billy Grace Ok, I suppose I have to just straight out ask since there was no response to this post.
1. Is there no interest in defining yourselves?
2. Is there no interest in involvement from anyone other than who is there now?
3. Is this group interested in diversity in political thought within Neualtinburg or is it only interested in being a forum to further a liberal agenda?
4. Is there a “big picture” in this experiment with a long term goal?
5. If so, what is it and if not, why not?
After reading this thread it is obvious that your members have some differing opinions as to the direction of Neualtinburg. Why not make it perfectly clear what you are all about? I guess I didn't answer your question, Billy, because I found them to patronizing and presumptive. |
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
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11-10-2004 07:45
From: Kendra Bancroft From someone who is tired of negativity, I found this to be a surprisingly negative post. Well I supose it's contagious to some extent, which is really sad.
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Talen Morgan
Amused
Join date: 2 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,097
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11-10-2004 08:09
From: Pendari Lorentz If I may make a suggestion? We may want to have a solid meeting with our current members to resolve some things before we start actively recruiting again. I am up for a meeting tonight if others are available as well.  EDIT: To add that I put a proposal for this in our group forum to gather feedback. The thread can be found here: /103/47/27006/1.htmlI agree with Pendari on this. |
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David Valentino
Nicely Wicked
Join date: 1 Jan 2004
Posts: 2,941
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11-10-2004 08:12
From: Wiggle Biggles Sometimes war is a good thing. War is NEVER a good thing. However, there have been a few times, a VERY few times, in history, when it's been a neccesairy thing...
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David Lamoreaux
Owner - Perilous Pleasures and Extreme Erotica Gallery
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Wiggle Biggles
Second Life Resident
Join date: 18 Oct 2004
Posts: 645
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11-10-2004 08:28
From: David Valentino War is NEVER a good thing. However, there have been a few times, a VERY few times, in history, when it's been a neccesairy thing... Well, I guess it depends on how you look at it. Good can come of it, so it could be called a good thing in tose circumstances. I wont argue that its a good thing in itself though, because it really sucks to have it. Its only nessasary because people cant get along, just like the rest of the animals in the world when they are overpopulated or crowded. We arent so different from other animals and nature loves balance. |
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Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
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11-10-2004 09:26
From: Kendra Bancroft I guess I didn't answer your question, Billy, because I found them to patronizing and presumptive. Unfortunatly, if you actually want to have any respect with any people that don't automaticly by in to your own worldview lock, stock, and barrel you don't have the option of ignoring valid questions because you find them patronizing. Otherwise you only re-enforce the view that you see views other than your own as not worthy of your time (at best). In other words, you don't intend to listen to anyone who isn't already saying what you want them to be saying. I'm not saying thats what you *are* doing, not yet, but it is the *image* you are presenting. |
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a lost user
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11-10-2004 09:42
From: Kendra Bancroft I guess I didn't answer your question, Billy, because I found them to patronizing and presumptive. I am sorry kendra. I suppose I need to break it down to a ridiculously simple question. What are you doing and what are your short-long term goals? And on a personal note, you are somehow failing to see that my questions are because I am genuinely interested in what you are doing. I do not have to agree with you politically to be interested in your project however if it is a requirement from you that I do if I want to look into becoming involved then just say so. |
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Kathy Yamamoto
Publisher and Surrealist
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 615
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11-10-2004 09:42
Look. I have no interest in building a Bavarian village for the purposes of fighting RL political battles. There are plenty of SL political battles on the horizon, and I have many other places to fight my RL battles. So, don’t worry about me making some sort of tie between the constitution and the outside world.
HOWEVER, and this was at the root of my arguments about the public war memorial, I will NOT be part of any enterprise that tells me that I’m not allowed to speak my mind.
That’s all. My needs are simple.
I would object to any outside political organization claiming control of Neualtenburg. I think it needs to make its very own priorities and principles. I could even support a restriction on large assemblies – whether or not for political reasons.
But, I cannot be part of a society that simply prohibits me from expressing any opinion on selected subjects.
I would like to have some sort of meeting or discussion focused ONLY on this point. It’s that decisive for me. But I don’t know yet how the constitution is going to stand on this. We haven’t got a constitution yet.
I feel more and more strongly that we were naive to form a group and begin work while putting the constitution off for later. They are correct: we came to this project with widely different suppositions and expectations. There is no reasonability in assuming we’d all “get along” without some shared visions. We need to get to the creation of the community as soon as possible.
Because, in partial answer to something said recently in this discussion, we DO need a constitution. Not as a bunch of extra rules, but as a statement of who the “People” are, and what expectations they share.
Without that step, you are only seeing the beginnings of the end. This is exactly the stuff that fuels the doomsayers’ claim that there can never be an online government.
We don’t need to prove them right by doing a sloppy, half-assed job.
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Kathy Yamamoto
Quaker's Sword
Leftist, Liberals & Lunatics
Turtlemoon Publishing and Property
turtlemoon@gmail.com
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Magnum Serpentine
Registered User
Join date: 20 Nov 2003
Posts: 1,811
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11-10-2004 10:05
From: Korg Stygian Let's see.. promote a different outlook in the real world based on actions and discussions here in SL? My suggestions and comments are the following... and most seem to be commonsensical though I am sure that others will not agree. 1. Considering that a majority of voting Americans (a number of whom play here in SL) so recently voiced their opinions that the current President's term should be extended by another four years, having a rally directed against him personally (I quote, "anti-Bush"  perhaps something a bit more inclusive as a title/event/purpose? 2. Considering that "anti-war" is bit vague in terms of being all-encompassing, how about something a bit more specific - for instance, "let's get the troops home quickly and safely?" Much easier to discuss, more likely to be something that Joe and Jane Average can agree on, dontcha think? More likely something that Joe/Jane might be able to actually have some kind of impact on - vis a vis calling on Joe/Jane to write their elected officials to actually pressure people to bring the troops home - if that is the extent of the purpose/rally's purpose...?!?!? ...(Note. I personally do not think it is in the nature of the human animal to "renounce war" once and for all... however, war (abhorrent as it is to those of us who have experienced it) is occasionally a necessity (how else would you have removed Hitler, for instance?), thus an anti-war rally appears to be a bit of an overreach to me..... Also note, I did not support going into Iraq either time, but once there, as a military retiree and a veteran of Vietnam, simply withdrawing wholesale at this point seems unrealistic... it would leave a huge vacuum... but that is for another thread.) 3. Considering that not all Republicans/people who atcually voted for Bush amy have been voting FOR him, but were voting AGAINST Kerry, isn't tying the "war" and Bush together counter to your desire if that desire is to end "war"/this war/American occupation of Iraq? Seems like you have set up a complex premise for your rally and you may be defeating your own purposes here. 4. I wouldn't expect that you are going to draw a very large "audience" (and if I am wrong, I will be the first to admit it) - because most people actually come to SL to escape RL. The forums are a bit different.... consider where many on te forums log in from --- work. So, what is the definition of "success" here? What are you REALLY trying to accomplish? This is not a flame or an argument AGAINST your idea. It's simply something you might have considered... It's one thing to be political and an activist. It's another thing to shoot yourself in the foot while promoting "activism" - much less your stated goal of "to promote equality, freedom, and peace in the real world." Your rhetoric decries your stated goal. As written, I certainly wont' be there... for somewhat obvious reasons outlined above. Lets see 296 million Americans 59 million voted for bush thats 20% A Minority |
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
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11-10-2004 10:06
From: Magnum Serpentine Lets see
296 million Americans
59 million voted for bush
thats 20%
A Minority Shakes head. 
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“Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit
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Lecktor Hannibal
YOUR MOM
Join date: 1 Jul 2004
Posts: 6,734
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11-10-2004 10:08
From: Magnum Serpentine Lets see
296 million Americans
59 million voted for bush
thats 20%
A Minority Good thing the rest of those 'Pugs were down with the flu eh?
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YOUR MOM says, 'Come visit us at SC MKII http://secondcitizen.net ' From: Khamon Fate Oh, Lecktor, you're terrible. Bikers have more fun than people !
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Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
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11-10-2004 10:19
From: Magnum Serpentine Lets see
296 million Americans
59 million voted for bush
thats 20%
A Minority Did you read the post? A majority of *voting* Americans. If your not happy with the results of the election, blame the people who are to goddamn lazy to vote. I wish more people would vote *regardless* of the how it would influence the election (And I'm a republican, for the record). Simple fact is, the leader of this country has always been decided by the majority of voting Americans, not by every single American. If they don't care enough to have their vote counted, that's nobodies fault but their own. Evidently they are content either way the election goes. |
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Wiggle Biggles
Second Life Resident
Join date: 18 Oct 2004
Posts: 645
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11-10-2004 12:04
Yup, lots of people didnt vote that were registered, and many more than that probably didnt even bother to register.
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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11-10-2004 12:09
From: Reitsuki Kojima Simple fact is, the leader of this country has always been decided by the majority of voting Americans. Until Diebold entered the picture anyways. |
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Wiggle Biggles
Second Life Resident
Join date: 18 Oct 2004
Posts: 645
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11-10-2004 12:14
Arent they actually decided by the electoral college? This is the first majority in several elections. That's why it's called a republic democracy and not just a democracy. The forefathers figured that the people should have their representatives, but the reps actually make the decisions.
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Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
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11-10-2004 12:23
From: Billy Grace
1. Is there no interest in defining yourselves?
2. Is there no interest in involvement from anyone other than who is there now?
3. Is this group interested in diversity in political thought within Neualtinburg or is it only interested in being a forum to further a liberal agenda?
4. Is there a “big picture” in this experiment with a long term goal?
5. If so, what is it and if not, why not?
After reading this thread it is obvious that your members have some differing opinions as to the direction of Neualtinburg. Why not make it perfectly clear what you are all about?
1. We are very well defined. The project always had and still has possibly the most extensive set of documentation for any project in the history of SL. We started the project with a proposal. After the proposal was accepted we created a FAQ. Once we took ownership of the land we created a meticulously detailed builder's guide. Every aspect of the city from architecture, culture, and politics is spelled out in immaculate detail and always has been. There is no shortage of information on this project. Further, we have already implemented our unique system of city revenue collection and openly report all statistics of the city's economy in our vendor page. If that weren't enough, we also have a very active group forum with over 116 posts and 1400 views. 2. Yes. 3. Yes (the diversity one). My prized member was Lecktor Hanibal but he left for now. I plan to pull him back in once things have progressed a little further and I can offer him a completed space for his museum. For the rest of your questions as well as your follow up question at the bottom, I must refer you to our extensive documentation. We were awarded this project because of a our clear and well-defined vision. It is this vision which will see us through to completion regardless of controversy. If this experiment interests you, I invite you to contact me or Kendra and we will send you an invitation immediately. ~Ulrika~
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Chik-chik-chika-ahh
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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11-10-2004 12:24
I think, thanks to this thread, agenda is now as overused of a word as metrosexual, and just as annoying.
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Cristiano ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less. ~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more. 
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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11-10-2004 12:25
From: Cristiano Midnight I think, thanks to this thread, agenda is now as overused of a word as metrosexual, and just as annoying. ::::::raise eyebrow :::::::: or so your metrosexual agenda would have us believe |
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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11-10-2004 12:28
From: Kendra Bancroft ::::::raise eyebrow :::::::: or so your metrosexual agenda would have us believe Amen, sister.
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Cristiano ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less. ~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more.
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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11-10-2004 12:37
One question I have to those who have reacted so adversely to an anti-Bush/anti-war rally in this city: Are you going to run away in droves and cry foul when someone holds a religious service in the church, because of the belief that RL religion has no place in SL either? I have to say, having read the proposal and the FAQ, that the rally was very much in line with the spirit and letter of the project, as would a pro-Bush, pro-war rally, a pro-environment rally, hell a pro-Tivo rally. Were you expecting that the most provocative political event would be rallying against land barons and tier fees? Burning some prims in effigy? I don't quite understand, honestly, and I have read the entire damn thread. It seems pretty clear cut to me - people do not like the subject matter of an event, so they are pulling their support. That's really progressive 
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Cristiano ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less. ~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more.
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