Antiwar and Anti-Bush Rally

How can anyone get upset about an agenda of peace and feeding the hungry?

Simple, you are under their control.

Be mad all you want.... this is entirely out of line with what was discussed . this was supposed to be an experimental government inside of sl and about sl...not your fucking real world agenda's. What has me madder than fucking hell is the fact that this experiment could have succeded but now it will only serve to motivate those whose agendas are alike.

I donated 8000 meters because I had the hope that this would bring people together within SL and be a government about SL and Inclusive of SL. By bringing in outside real life agendas it will do nothing but divide the people. By bringing in real life agendas you have insured that there will only be one side and it will have nothing to do with SL.

I think you are conflating two entirely seperate issues.

Issue one: Are Ulrika and Kendra allowed to throw an event in Neualtenburg without permission from the citizenry?

Did Kendra need permission to throw the Oktoberfest?

Issue two: Ulrika and myself would like to use Second Life as a vehicle for change in the real world! How do you think we could best do that? Post below or let us know at the rally.

While it is true that Ulrika and I would like to use SECOND LIFE and cyberia in general to affect change in RW --that is a SEPERATE issue from the Neualtenburg Projekt which remains an experiment in the viabilty of Social Democracy. I trust Ulrika and I are allowed to have interests other than Neualtenburg.

If citizens of Neualtenburg would like to protest Ulrika and Kendra's use of the city to promote an "outside" agenda--then protest. With your voice or your pocketbook. Your choice.

In short --No. The reason for Neualtenburg was not and is not BS. Togetherness is achievable when all voices are welcome in the city.

Sometimes peace isnt the way. Like right in the middle of a war with a bunch of radicals trying to take over a country.

I for one highly appreciate what you are doing Ace. I go there once a week and usually shed a RL tear. I was lucky and came home, they weren't and your tribute is moving to me. Thank you Kathy for belittling something that is so meaningful. Maybe for an encore you can go squat in front of the wall eh??

Kendra you know damn well right that this is a major conflict of interest...it does nothing but undermine what Neualtenburg could be. By using this one place in all of SL you are saying Neualtenburg exists only for me.

If you had any sense of what Neualtenburg could be you would see that and seperate that from what you hold to be true in real life. This will push many people away from Neualtenburg and give all the others the I told you so moment. This isn't about you or Ulrika or republicans or Democrats....its about SL. The only thing you accomplish in this endeavor is to divide people.

Watches and shakes head as kendra and ulrika shoot themselves in the foot destroying what sounds like may have been an interesting idea.

I'd also like to add by doing this you will ensure that the only people running for office in Neualtenburg will be like minded...there will be no healthy debate when its just you< Ulrika, and Kathy.

I never had an issue with the memorial. My issue has ALWAYS been with those - like you - who equate being anti-war with shitting on the troops. You are either stupid - which I have seen occasional evidence against - or you are disingenuous and purposely equating those concepts to promote your own purposes.

If you are so thick as to read my diatribe in support of the Constitution as an attack on American soldiers, then I'm sure you would LIKE to see me "squat in front of the wall." And I know what document you'd hand me for toilet paper.

Let me ask, do you REMEMBER the oath you gave when you enlisted? Go ahead. Be proud. Type it out right here in capital letters.

First Never tell a grown woman what (you think) she knows.

Second Instead of telling me that I don't see what Neualtenburg could be and castigating me for doing something in opposition to what you see it could be --Why don't you show me what you believe Neualtenburg can be. Not here in the forums. In Neualtenburg.

Third You are the one making it about Ulrika and I. About Republicans and Democrats. About Blue vs. Red. You say it's about SL...yes it is..very much so. Apparently our views of what SL is are quite different. Neualtenburg belongs to all who participate in it, including those who disagree with you.

I see SL as a unique environment for people all over the world to interact with each other in a form of their own choosing and in environments of their own creation. I don't see it as a form of "escapism" or a cyber analogy to imitating an ostrich with it's head in the sand. If you prefer to think of Neualtenburg as analogous to a toy "steam engine" that works with great precision but nonetheless sits on a shelf rotating wheels that take it nowhere than we definately differ. I'll say again. True togetherness will never be achieved by tongue-biting --not in Neualtenburg and certainly not in the RW.

Hmmmm -- yeah. okay. I see Neualtenburg as a city where all voices are open to be heard and continue my monetary and labor support to the city no matter what a member of the citizenry decides to pursue as an event, where as you pull all your support when a member speaks to a purpose which is different than yours.

So which approach fosters healthy debate?

Hmmmm... Lecktor was coming to my defense, and he knows that I am the embodiment of the notion that one can be anti-war without shitting on the troops. I'm as opposed to the war as anyone, yet I built the memorial to the fallen men and women.

Perhaps it is you who is being either stupid or disengineous here.

The Iraqi War Memorial is not a place for political discussion. Its my land, and I will do everything in my power to ensure that it remains apolitical. If you can't deal with that, then tough shit.

- Ace

I refuse to rise to your level of hate and disdain, as I have seen MORE THAN OCCASIONAL evidence for. You have your right to your opinion and view as do I. I take offense to the belittlement of an obvious tribute to people who gave their lives on foreign soil sworn to the same oath you and I both took VOLUNTARILY.
Have a nice day.

Obviously you have no clue...I have no agenda I am neither republican nor democrat. This experiment was supposed to benifit SL ...by bringing real life agenda's to the city you seek to divide.

You have to see this is a conflict of interest otherwise you must really be brain dead. I also don't believe this is what the Lindens signed on for either when they gave the land to the project.

You are seeking to use Neualtenburg for your own private agenda by declaring that it fits in with the agenda of the city when it clearly doesn't. This event as you call it will just serve to tell everyone that didn't believe in the project that they had good reason. What I really can't believe is that you would sacrifice what could be for your own personal agendas. I really thought that this wsouldn't happen and I'm highly angered at myself for believing that this could be different and that it could work.

As for pulling my support ...I haven't yet....for some stupid reason I still have faith that Ulrika will see that this is a major conflict of interest for the project. If she doesn't then my support will be withdrawn immediatley and I will also do everything in my power to see that Linden support is withdrawn as well.

Congratulations. I am glad we provide you the opportunity for a real sense of security. My 22.5 years doing so has obviously not gone for naught. (Should you not take advantage of the opportunity provided to actually FEEL safe, well, there's nothing I can do about it/for you.



I don't deny any of what you said. I dispute the interpretation of what you describe as current events - but that is not what this thread is about.

Had the original post been in the project forum rather than the off-topic forum, I would not even have responded. Since it is, I posted for a few reasons...

First, it IS NOT off-topic.... it is an event notification! So it is public. And not only is it not off-topic, it is posted in the wrong forum.

Second, it has been fairly obvious since the day I first read posts on this set of forums that certain people have agendas and cannot seem to step outside those agendas. This project, ostensibly being paid for with a portion of my land tier fees, was questionalbe from its initial proposal - at least to me. The rhetoric of the proposal laid the groundwork for what is going to happen on Tuesday and it didn't take any serious analysis to forecast that. So, now a portion of my fees is going to be directed to supporting an event I am very much opposed to - and the Lindens are supporting it by supporting this project. Who do I go to to report this "abuse of the system"?

Third, as at least Ulrika has said and others seem to echo, this is a fait accompli. There will be no discussion.

So, your little dream world where Bush is God on high making decrees from high atop his mountain has come to SL... and by supporting this project from this point onward you Jack are effectively supporting a Bush-imitator. That is the dreamworld of yours I am questioning.... This reaction of mine, if you reread my initial post, has NOTHING to do with the real world or my politics in RL per se. This was and is being handled poorly - alienating those who were supporting it.

You knw, there's quite a bit of difference between Apolitical and ANTIpolitical. Apolitical means you are neutral to all political speech.

ANTIpolitical means you are against all political speech.

If you are not one, you are the other. If you are not neutral, you are against one or all types of political speech.

If you are against political speech, then you are against the principles American soldiers die for.

Unless you are only against it on your PRIVATE LAND. If that is the case, then stop representing your monument as a public space.

Is this that hard?

I had no interest in bothering your monument until you decided to characterize political protest with defiling the military dead.

If you truely believe that all political protest defiles the American soldier, then you are just as un-American as you imply I am.

What DO you believe? Can you be accurate?

I have no interest in what Lecktor has to say about this. He clearly didn't pay attention when he raised his right hand, But I am interested in what you really mean, Ace. I'd be glad to support you, butyou have to make up your mind what you really believe. Or just be quiet until you can speak more clearly.

If you insist... I'll reword what I said.

The Iraqi War Memorial is not a place for political discussion. Its my land, and I will do everything in my power to ensure that it remains ANTIpolitical. If you can't deal with that, then tough shit.

Happy now?

- Ace

That doesn't surprise me at all given that we obviously have opposing views. Thank you for getting inside my head though and clearing up for me my confusion in the oath. Now I wish I hadn't taken it so many damn times. I wonder if the DOD will take back my 214's and return the lost years of life ?

I clearly understood both Ace and Lecktors thoughts....obviously you have a comprehension problem. To discount Lecktors service by saying he didn't pay attention was just sad ....its unfortunate that someone seemingly as intelligent as you can only communicate their thoughts by telling others they are wrong.

As long as neither pro-war or anti-war political agendas are allowed at the memorial, I cant see the problem with none being allowed. To me it sounds like he is asking for respect for the shrine and for it not to be used for political agenda.

I beg your pardon? I never made any such characterization. Please don't put words in my mouth.

In fact, if you go look at my earlier post in this thread, you might see that I was one of the first to line up, ready for a protest. I'll be there with my "Support Our Troops : BRING 'EM HOME" t-shirt.

All I said is that the Iraqi War Memorial is not the place. And you can bet your bottom L$ that I'll make damn sure it never IS the place.

If you want a fight over this, bring it on, Quaker-girl...

- Ace

Fine, Ace. Then you mean it to be a private memorial for you and your guests.

I don't mind that. But I do mind when people call something "public" (or American) and then exclude everyone they find bothersome.

And, to tie it back to this thread, I do not remember the part of the discussion where Neualtenburg was agreed to be ANTIpolitical. If that did happen, then I welcome a transcript of that agreement.

If not, and such limitations are important to you, then you better step up to the plate and get it into the constitution. Until then, no one has ANY say about which expectations have validity.

The bottom line is this: if speech in Neualtenburg is censored beyond the content rating and TOS restrictions the sim has by default, then it is already a failed experiment in my mind. If that happens, then I'm out of there.

I hope you folks feel as strongly about your own views.

Again (and again):

Political speech does NOT equal dis-respect!

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

Funny. For someone who is so clearly intelligent, this argument is rotten to its core. Not Bush, but YOU have set yourself up as judge, jury and executioner in this debate/discussion. Can you not see that your over-emotional reaction to someone else's point of view is EXACTLY what you are accusing Bush of?

As for Lektor and his understanding of what raising his hand meant, or you doing so for that matter, there is no one thing that the Consitution means - no single thing. And certainly no single thing to each and every person in the US much less America.

Free speech ?? Nope, not an absolute - including the right to vote. That right can be taken away - consider certain felons convicted of certain Federal crimes. Can't vote. Can never regain that right. So, they cannot have the "entirety" of the freedom of speech that others have.

The right to pursue one's own happiness? Nope. Again not an absolute right - again I point to the felons. Their right to pursue happiness is certainly constrained.

Liberty? - see above.

Right to bear arms? Okay, I won't point at the felons again. Too easy. Federal gun laws do restrict the rights of individuals to own and bear arms.

etc...etc...etc.

The Constitution is open to interpretation BECAUSE it is a document of WORDS and words are ambiguous.

What do people mean or understand when they raise their hands and take an oath? They mean as many different things as there are people raising their hands.

You really need to take a look at your position and argument here.

There is a time and place for everything...Why not have a rally in a grave yard...Same thing.