Antiwar and Anti-Bush Rally

just beat me over the head with it...I deserve at least that much

As free individuals in a free society we do not need to seek permission from each other to hold events provided they don't violate the constitution, the law, or prior agreements. That's the whole point of this experiment, isn't it? We're not looking to make a cohesive group which marches in lockstep rather we seek to bind individuals with competing ideologies together into a mutually beneficial collective. People should expect to eternally be in a state of civil disagreement.
Correct, there is no government. Technically at the moment Kendra and I are the project leads in charge of a large, complex sociopolitically experiment. We are in the process of putting the infrastructure in place (vendors, tax, constitution, buildings) such that when we flip a switch we'll have the correct boundary conditions that will launch a functioning self-ruled city. As leads we value very highly all input that we receive via the Neualtenburg Projekt forum and by email and would love people to collaborate with us on our products to help improve city sales.
I've read this a few times and I don't understand how it could be upsetting. I'm stating that there are those who do not agree and I'm celebrating that disagreement.

Perhaps you could offer some solutions or compromises to this problem. I understand you're upset but how do we go about solving this?

~Ulrika~

The fact that the Ulrika and Kendra fail to understand why folks are upset is somewhat disturbing. I don't think it takes much brain work. You're running a RL politically charged event in a sim that was nominally devoted to other aims. When this is pointed out to you, rather than taking on this criticism, cancelling the event and having a think you go full steam ahead with some cosmetic changes.

Welcome to gobal socialism people. You are simply misinformed. They are right. In time you will learn this. Or be made to...

And now a mini-rant:
Further, no war for oil? Please. Anyone driving a car who believes in that principle is a hypocrite.. and that winds me up a lot. We all use oil, our economies depend on it, OUR governments will secure it for us so we don't get upset when prices go up and the world economy collapses.. and yet people get upset about this? Stop driving your SUVs down to the mall you lazy asses!

We are each individually repsonsible for every death in a war for resources. Some people chose to buy SmartCars, ride bikes, walk to make a difference (did you know if all American drove cars with the same fuel efficiency as a SmartCar there would be NO need for middle eastern oil?). However, most people like to blame others. Sad. Bah!

And why bother protesting 'against' the war. It's happening. No one can abandon it because if we do Iraq is screwed and so is the rest of the middle east. Like it or lump it it has to be seen through. I don't think the war was started well or for the right reasons but now it's on.. there's sod all useful to be done by abandoning it.

To be honest, I'm not surprised at this protest. Although i'm liberal most liberals annoy me and I guess that's where Ulrika and co fall. Especially annoying are the more lefty ones. They speak about rights and liberties but of course, as is seen, are happy to do anything they feel like without consulting others. When this is pointed out to them they claim misunderstanding but continue anyway.

That's the problem with all kinds of extremists. They're right, you're wrong. At least fascists are honest about wanting to be in charge and tell everyone else what to do

And wiggles. hehehe. Little stirrer!

I loved the quoted out of context comment. You don't know what that means do you? It wasn't out of context! One post was how the protest was anti war and anti bush and a page or two later you say it's not about democrats and republicans! I had a good laugh at that and it's great others are too.

Remember folks, WAR HAS NEVER SOLVED ANYTHING (EXCEPT FOR ENDING SLAVERY, FASCISM, NAZISM AND COMMUNISM).

And interesting question. Can the members of Neualtenberg vote out their leaders? Would the leaders let them? Hmm!

PC

While putting away dishes, I was thinking about disenfranchisement and radicalization. In situations where individuals are denied voice, vote, or power they often resort to alternative radical methods (violence) of achieving their goals. One of the reasons I wanted to join in on this anitwar, anti-Bush rally today is that, in a way, I feel disenfranchised by the U.S. system for electing representatives of the executive branch.

Unlike electing many representatives to the Legislative branch (House and Senate) the executive branch is an all or nothing vote. This means that if 50% of the population votes for a candidate which is not elected (48.4% in 2000 and 48.0% in 2004), that half of the population has no Executive representation at all for four years. What made this realization more acute is comments from the President claiming that he had "the will of the people behind him", ignoring the fact that he had the will of the other half of the people in front of him pushing the other way.

Thus I felt that a good old fashioned rally would be an acceptable way to deal with my feelings of disenfranchisement. I want to exercise my right as an individual to remind those around me that the other 50% has not gone away and that they don't have to stop pushing simply because we have no voice in the Executive branch.

Well here's the interesting part. Isn't that how Talen feels right now? Is he not calling for a voice, a vote, and power in Neualtenburg, a project in which he clearly has great interest? Who would we be to deny him a hand in directing what he has put his trust, faith, and money into?

I'm a bummed that the city has no constitution to decisively settle the issue; no mechanism to vote; and no council to hear the grievance. It would have been a great way to test the system! (This is so much fun!)

Nonetheless, I'd like to see us work out a solution. I've already agreed to abstain and I put a disclaimer in the event. What should we do? Should we move the event? Should we cancel the event? Should we do the event as scheduled with the current compromises with the agreement that in the future we notify the group first?

~Ulrika~

If I were you I would cancel your event and apologise to the annoyed people. It might piss ya off but it is the right thing to do to respect that you've got people upset.

I don't think anyone objects to people voicing opinions and being political but where and how these opinions are voiced is important.

Cancel the event, get everyone togther and collectively decide what exactly your sim is about and be prepared to devise a set of goals and principles which everyone agrees on that focus on what the sim is about.

For any event which may in any way arouse annoyance then simply organise the event with another group in another sim.

TBH, I'm not even sure I'd bother with a consitution. It just gives you a bunch of rule you are going to have to constantly evaluate and change. This is annoying. Instead, I'd write out the -objectives- of the sim and some guiding principles. This gives you a better focus (The objectives of the constitution are what it is trying to bring forth, after all) and less hassle with people nitpicking over rules.

The objectives are easier for newcomers to read as well and much clearer than a constitution.

PC

Well frankly. I'm at a loss as to what to do now. I feel as if I've bent over backwards to accomodate the feelings of others. Am I met with any compromise from the "other side"? No.

I believe I've explained as well as anyone possibly could that all opinions and events are welcomed in Neualtenburg.

well some might call this poetic justice. I just installed the new 1.56 software on my mac and can't sign in --that's right crassssssssssh crash crash. I'll keep trying to get in ---but something's terribly glitched with my software even after doing a complete re-install.

What compromise? The proposed changes don't address your residents actual concerns. It's not the -group- that runs the event that's important, it's that it's being located in what is known to be a politically active sim and that by running the event there you are tying in-game politics with RL leftist activism.

I actually think there are two problems here
1) Many seem to think the sim is about in-world politics and change. This is -entirely- different from a sim about RL and SL politics and government. People can agree on in-world politics but be poles appart in RL. To try and do both.. well... I don't think it's possible. One or other part will leave and you'll fail to be inclusive. You all need to decide what N.berg is about. Regardless of what's been written in the past, this is an issue now, so just go and sort it

If it's about RL politics and in world politics then that's fine, every political junky will want to have their brochures and banners there and you'll get all sorts of goings on.

If it's an attempt to have a government of SL then that's fine too, but to try and do both.. ouch! Chaos!

2) As leaders of a RL politically focused sim (if that's what it is) you may HAVE to be a-political to make it work. It's hard for people to see the place as politically neutral when the leaders are so clearly very political. You could of course invite some Jessie people in to host some kind of events... but I think the fundamental disconnect will stuff you long term.

And frankly, if you think this has been a challenge wait till you really get into in-game governments. After running a town in UO I'm convinced dictatorship is the only way online

..well, in any case, you're trying to run a political sim and now you're starting to learn what's involved. You really have to learn to understand why these people are upset with you. If your first reaction, right now, is that they're all a bit bonkers then honestly, you're going to have to give up on being a leader because it will just end in tears. As a leader you -have- to understand -why- people get upset with you and not get emotional about it. If you don't know exactly why then clarify, clarify, clarify till you do, until you can write it out what's wrong in your own words and they agree you shouldn't try and fix it (because you'll fix the wrong thing as you've noticed). Once you're this far you then need to resolve the problem and make sure people are happy before continuing. If there is deadlock then the status quo wins.

That's politics. Not flashy protests but compromise, long meetings, endless documents and slowly plodding along.


PC
...just my random ramblings. Feel free to ignore..

/irony on

So I can set up my "Anti american loudmouth artillery on the highest promentory, take good aim and not miss?

/irony off

Websters, and the world, has a "loose" definition of a man, or even a human, and that is one that can admit they lost, so... get defined....


nufff said

I'm sure I will laugh about all this later, but seriously --I'm having trouble signing on with 1.5.6 on my mac. I've never had a bit of trouble before and this is very disconcerting.

The program immediately force quits itself before starting up. Whoever can help me sign on can feel free to neg rate me when (or if) I'll be able to show up.

Ok, after reading this thread and for the most part trying to stay out of it I do have something to say and a question.

A comment first. One thing that this thread did do was give me some information about the Neualtinburg project. I have not been involved or even read any of the information about this project to date because I do not believe that an SL government is needed or desired by the vast majority of residents.

I will say though that after reading Talen’s passionate posts about what HE thought it was, the project would be interesting to at least explore. If this is to experiment with an SL government that is for SL and about SL, not RL, then I would be interested in being involved. If this is going to be about intermingling RL politics with SL politics I have no interest at all. If Neualtinburg is to be an extension of the political debates and discussions here on these forums then what’s the point? Really, I am asking a serious question. What is the point in that? If on the other hand it is an experiment in forming an SL government where all of the RL BS is stripped away and something new and interesting is created then you may have a chance to succeed.

Speaking as part of the conservative minority (just look at how few of us there really are in SL) I fight enough fights about my RL beliefs right here on these forums and really do not want to take that into SL. I predict that there will be very few conservatives interested in being a part of Neualtinburg if all we have to do is fight the same old battles in-world too.

I am all for free speech and all but I do feel that Talen is correct in saying that you are dooming yourselves to failure if your sole purpose is to create a liberal government dominated by Kendra, Ulrika, Kathy and the other libs that appear to be in charge. I do applaud you for the work you have done so far but for this to REALLY work you will need the support and involvement of not only your liberal brethren but from conservative people too. If this is to be a liberal club, bashing opposing views as you have to admit these very forums have become then it will be nothing more than that and die on the vine.

Ask yourselves these questions. How do we appeal to the masses? How do we get everyone involved? How do we get support from the huge majority of SLers who do not want to be governed? I don’t know if there REALLY are answers to these questions but I can tell you one thing. If you intermingle RL politics with SL politics you can go ahead and hammer the last nail in the coffin. Neither myself or dare I say any conservative SLer will have anything to do with your project, which will destroy any legitimate chance you had for success.

Ok, that said I have a BIG question for you and it is a simple one. What is this REALLY about? If it is about creating something new, something where we explore the possibility of self-government, somewhere free of all of RL politics and all of the petty BS that it brings then I will offer my support and you can contact me about how I might become involved. On the other hand if this is just going to be a place where SL politics and RL politics are intertwined, where RL agendas and bias are on display, another place where I have to fight the fight against my liberal counterparts I say no thanks. Have fun with your little liberal experiment.

It's over.

Kendra had difficulty logging on, so I attended in her place. I joined about 15 minutes late and passed out the "No W" buttons and some wonderful antiwar T-shirts. I was delighted to see that some people showed up to take the opposing viewpoint. It made for a lively discussion that varied between heated and civil. Jill Linden did an excellent job of moderating and Haney showed up at the beginning of the rally.

I feel that the rally was a tremendous success in that we maintained civility from beginning to end despite extremely controversial topics. I have great hope for politics in SL and feel that demonstrating success with these types of meetings is the first step to achieving autonomy as avatars from the Lindens.

For those who were so filled with passion in this thread, might I suggest that you dive into the Neualtenburg forum and contribute to the definition of our constitution. Let's not wait until the next controversy. Don't procrastinate! Elections are planned for January.

Concerning whether or not we should mix RL and SL politics, I've started a new thread in the Neualtenburg forum to discuss this issue.

Attached are a few pictures of the rally.

~Ulrika~

What's the point in us contributing now? You ignore the serious concerns of your own citizens, people who actually support your project. The rest of us note the precedent and whatever interest we had is gone.

PC

How will real world agendas help us to achieve autonomy exactly?

Whats the point of diving into anything? You've made it quite clear that you and Kendra are the project leaders and only care for your own views of the project. So it can only be concluded that anything you don't like about any discussion will be sumarily dismissed. You don't want passionate discourse, differences of opinion, or valid veiwpoints...you want people to agree to your agenda. In the end you can sit back and see what you've created and smile because you've bent people to your will and created exactly what you wanted to see....I wonder how many people there will be there cheering.

Its nice to hear Haney showed up somewhere.

Ulrika,

I am a socialist - by American standards I am a rabid left-winger. I hate George Bush and all the man stands for, and think that America will take a very long time to recover from the damage he has already caused and will cause over the next four years.

But had I been involved with the Neualtenburg project, I would at the moment feel utterly betrayed.

As someone pointed out previously, if you are going to govern, you have to govern wisely - and that doesn't mean ignoring other people's feelings and railroading through your own point of view, even if you are convinced that point of view is the right one.

In my view the Neualtenburg project has failed - even before it reached the stage of creating a working model of government.

It is easy, especially in politics, to become so focused on an issue that you can see nothing else. But it leads to political extremism and totalitarianism. I feel very sorry for the people who have put their time and money into this project, and I hope that one day you will be able to go some way towards appreciating what they feel they have lost because of your actions.

Sorry to appear so critical, because most of the time I admire your single-mindedness. But this time, I feel, it has let you down.

Nice pics (not). I see despite the voiced disagreement from vested members, you still held the event on the town square. Nice job Ulrika. I'm curious to what Haney had to say.

Was there ever any question about the intent behind the formation of Neualtenburg? Ulrika failed in bringing about a SL government, so she decided the best way to live out her fantasy was to suck in some of SL's most talented and wait for the right moment. Well, the moment has arisen and I hope those of you without agendas and vitriol in you very fiber will take note. For the record I am a DFLer from Minnesota who hails from a long line of DFLers. My mother and step father work for the party. I can hardly stand to talk to my own mother on the phone because she is also charged with this negative hate energy. When did riding over the backs of your own to make a point become acceptable? I voted dem <as per usual> this time around but am finding it increasingly difficult to do so, the blatant hatred is in the very least dismaying.

It is painfully obvious to me that you have all been duped by Ulrika and that the reason no charter or constitution exists is so that exactly this type of event can be held with or without the blessing of the people who pledged RL $ in the form of land tiers. Fuck em. This is MY experiment. The fact that it still went off despite the misgivings of prominent members speaks volumes.

So go on Ulrika, type up some more patronizing pseudo-sycophantic posts telling your group members how this thread is a resounding success, it's all an experiment after all right?

I popped into the event for a few minutes last night to see if I could view it from an outside opinion. Meaning I wanted to see how much this event would reflect upon the project itself. I don't believe I saw any Neualtenburg group tags on at all. I did see a great many people there to protest to the protesters. Some good debate going on. I said a couple of things, but I didn't want to do more. And since I didn't want to debate, I couldn't stay long because I started getting ill from some of the things I was hearing and not responding to. That's just me though. hehe..

I am not sure if anyone there really found a connection between the protest and the Neualtenburg project. It seemed everyone was so focused on the event at hand. I do not know what happened before I got there or after I left though. So there is a *possibility* that this event has not harmed the Neualtenburg project (other than the harm it has caused members of the group who were opposed to this event taking place - but here I mean harm as in the eyes of those *not* in the group).

I will go to the group forums to continue with my thoughts on this issue and others. Whether I remain with the project or not still remains to be seen.

I didn't attend the event last night. Although I did mean to but time got away from me. I wanted to attend at least for a short while and see how this affected the project in world. Whereas it's good to hear that it didn't seem to, I know for a fact it did by the numerous I'm's I received last night ..some from people I have never seen on the forums or met in world.

I held off doing anything with my tier until I could get more perspective and that process is still ongoing for the moment. I don't want anyone thinking that Tiers or those that have donated them have anything whatsoever to do with this arguement. I do find it Ironic though that the group is over its alloted tier and no one that has spoken so pationately throughout this arguement has stepped up to fill the void.

A lot has been said on both sides of this arguement about respect for individuals and having the rights to do as they see fit when it comes to political or any other event in the city proper...I find it even more ironic that I am fighting against not a Social Democratic Ideal but one that clearly has its roots in Anarchy.

Last I checked (I wasn't able to sign on last night due to a corrupted OS) we were way in excess of needed donations. If this is no longer the case I will gladly fill that void.

You can check via the website through your account...I think you have to be in world to donate though..not entirely sure. The big red bar at the top of the group page says feed me though.

Thanks for the head's up, Talen. I'll clear that up personally tonight.

Yes, I just noticed this myself. I am sure some who pulled out last night due to this event had an affect on those numbers. And I personally gave the last bit of land that I had on my tier to this project. Unfortunatly I cannot tier up more as I cannot afford it in RL. I wanted to help as much as I was able to with land, but also had planned to be actively involved in other aspects of the project to make up for the small amount of land that I was able to donate.

It appears that we lost one member and their land tier contribution in combination with the 5100 m^2 Toy removed pushed us 2500 m^2 under the limit. I'll stop building and start recruiting efforts again tonight with the goal of acquiring 13,000 m^2 within a week.

~Ulrika~

If I may make a suggestion? We may want to have a solid meeting with our current members to resolve some things before we start actively recruiting again. I am up for a meeting tonight if others are available as well.

EDIT: To add that I put a proposal for this in our group forum to gather feedback. The thread can be found here: /103/47/27006/1.html