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Antiwar and Anti-Bush Rally

a lost user
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11-10-2004 13:30
From: Pendari Lorentz
It will not be posted on the events calendar, and is supposed to be for current members, but personally I feel that you seem to be already so interested in the group, that as long as no other member objected, I see no reason you could not attend. I will send you an IM in world and if I hear objections I will let you know before the meeting. Though I doubt it will be an issue. :)


Thanks Pendari. If anyone objects to me attending I will take no offense at all to it at all but if that is not the case I appreciate the opportunity to watch and listen.
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Pendari Lorentz
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Join date: 5 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,372
11-10-2004 13:34
From: Cristiano Midnight
Sorry, I did not mean to lump you in. Honestly, your posts were the only ones I found to at least make sense, though I still do not fully understand why you were so opposed to it, I admit that. After seeing the phrase RL politics over and over again in post after post, along with the word agenda, after awhile it became difficult to discern what the argument actually is about, which is why I asked for clarification, and asked the question about religion.


Apology accepted. And again I apologize for getting miffed myself. I was opposed to it because unlike your thoughts (and others thoughts), myself and still others did feel that this event was going against the "charter" of the group. That is why I organized a meeting for this evening. With the hopes of clarifying this issue. After tonight, some may still leave the group (though from which side or both is yet to be known). But at the very least the goal of the meeting is to clarify this issue as plainly as possible. So that hopefully this profound confusion does not happen again (at least with regards to this issue). :)
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a lost user
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11-10-2004 14:05
Has Ludwig's Castle been replicated yet?

If so, having been there IRL I just have to go see it. Linderhof, Ludwig's second castle is perhaps the most beautiful structure I have ever seen. Too bad that Ludwig never finished Neuschwanstein. Imagine the intricacies of Linderhof incorporated in the massive walls of Neuschwanstein. For those that may not know Neuschwanstein was the inspiration for the castle at Disney.

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/4080/castle.htm
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Talen Morgan
Amused
Join date: 2 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,097
11-10-2004 14:12
From: Cristiano Midnight
One question I have to those who have reacted so adversely to an anti-Bush/anti-war rally in this city: Are you going to run away in droves and cry foul when someone holds a religious service in the church, because of the belief that RL religion has no place in SL either? I have to say, having read the proposal and the FAQ, that the rally was very much in line with the spirit and letter of the project, as would a pro-Bush, pro-war rally, a pro-environment rally, hell a pro-Tivo rally. Were you expecting that the most provocative political event would be rallying against land barons and tier fees? Burning some prims in effigy? I don't quite understand, honestly, and I have read the entire damn thread. It seems pretty clear cut to me - people do not like the subject matter of an event, so they are pulling their support. That's really progressive :-P


Actually Cris you need to read the whole thread because its quite apparent by your post you didn't. The event in question was not what was in debate ...the fact that 2 members made a decision for the whole experiment is...it also goes deeper than that but if you didn't take the time to read the thread I doubt you'll read this.
Talen Morgan
Amused
Join date: 2 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,097
11-10-2004 14:14
From: Cristiano Midnight
While it does not say "we will talk about RL politics" in the documents, it does also not spell out that you won't talk about them, that it is forbidden. The religious question is very germaine and does definitely apply, as religion, unless you have magically invented a mythology in SL, is very much RL based, as much as politics (and often intertwined).


wow cris....you really don't get it.....sad
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
11-10-2004 14:16
From: Billy Grace
The main question that I had was about mixing RL politics with SL politics and that seems to be the primary discrepancy a few of your members have. I really do not think I have a problem with holding a rally every now and then about whatever, as long as it is clearly sponsored by a political party or something other than Neualtinburg itself but do you envision SL politics and RL politics to be intertwined?
I think it might be a little more complicated than the issue of whether or not people think we should mix SL and RL politics.

I believe that Talen is looking to promote an SL government and is concerned that linking the city with external politics could sabotage this vision by creating a perceived bias. I think he is right and we need to discuss how we are going to mitigate this potential.

In the case of Pendari, I get the feeling that she opposed the message personally and is nervous about being associated with that message by means of the group. I think she will stay in the group if we can find a way to compartmentalize the RL politics.

In my case I am obsessed with politics, philosophy, and morality and love rolling around in the mess like a little piggy.

Do I think that RL and SL politics should be mixed? Yes! We should be able to talk about RL politics in Neualtenburg just like I can talk about SL politics in San Francisco. We should be able to have rallies, protests, and moderated debates in the soon-to-be-built senate.

However, I recognize and respect Talen and Pendari's viewpoints and think having them in the group is a privilege that is worth making compromises for. I think both of them have strong arguments on grounds of conflict of interest. I think a compromise will be reached quickly. After that I'll be on to my next controversy. :)

~Ulrika~
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Pendari Lorentz
Senior Member
Join date: 5 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,372
11-10-2004 14:22
From: Ulrika Zugzwang
In my case I am obsessed with politics, philosophy, and morality and love rolling around in the mess like a little piggy.


I vote understatement of the year here!! hehe.. :p

And honestly Ulrika, my thoughts are right in line with Talens. Hopefully tonight I will be able to be more clear than I have been on the boards though. :)
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Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
11-10-2004 14:33
From: Pirate Cotton
Regardless of the nature of the event, surely in a group such as N.berg if a section of the polity disagrees with the event and believes that such events should not occur in the town the event should be stopped and the whole thing discussed. Or is the place not a democracy after all?
No. It's not a functioning democracy at all right now. It's a construction site.

At the moment the city is not a city. It is a work in progress. There are two groups (with some overlap), a small group of architects, artisans, and coders building the infrastructure and group of land investors who are carrying the land-tier load until the city is finished. What we have here is a dispute between the project leads (architects) and the land-tier holders (investors) concerning a perceived change in direction and possible conflict of interest. The fear from the investors is that the architects could be steering the project in a direction that could reduce its chances of success and in the process negatively reflect on them personally. As an architect it is my responsibility to keep my investors happy and to make compromises along the way, while simultaneously pushing back to maintain the quality of the original vision.

Thus, technically, this is nothing more than a business meeting where artisans and investors are attempting to forge a common vision. The compromises which lead to that common vision will almost certainly not be reached by majority vote (democracy) but by negotiation and concession.

~Ulrika~
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Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
11-10-2004 14:36
From: Pendari Lorentz
From: someone
In my case I am obsessed with politics, philosophy, and morality and love rolling around in the mess like a little piggy.
I vote understatement of the year here!! hehe.. :p

I carefully crafted that sound bite with hopes I'd make it back on Cristiano's forum signature! :D

~Ulrika~
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Chik-chik-chika-ahh
a lost user
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11-10-2004 14:43
From: Ulrika Zugzwang
In my case I am obsessed with politics, philosophy, and morality and love rolling around in the mess like a little piggy.


We may be on the opposite sides of the spectrum politically but I can definitely relate to this sentence… lol

From: someone
Do I think that RL and SL politics should be mixed? Yes! We should be able to talk about RL politics in Neualtenburg just like I can talk about SL politics in San Francisco. We should be able to have rallies, protests, and moderated debates in the soon-to-be-built senate.


As I stated in one of my other posts, I am all for freedom of speech and do not necessarily have a problem with RL politics being discussed along with rallies, protests, and moderated debates. What I hope you are not saying is that your vision of Neualtinburg is to basically have a democratic, liberal party and a republican, conservative party running the city and interject RL politics in everything that is done.

Questions:
1. Will the senate debate RL issues or just issues pertaining to the city? To clarify what this means will decisions will be made on specific issues like say freedom of speech (or whatever) as it pertains to SL or how do we promote freedom of speech (or whatever) in RL through SL.

2. Will the main focus be on RL politics or on forming a political structure that will be a new creation specifically for and about SL?

3. What is your vision about how RL and SL politics will be mixed? Maybe this is a more to the point question.

From: someone
However, I recognize and respect Talen and Pendari's viewpoints and think having them in the group is a privilege that is worth making compromises for. I think both of them have strong arguments on grounds of conflict of interest. I think a compromise will be reached quickly. After that I'll be on to my next controversy. :)

~Ulrika~


I applaud you on what appears to be your willingness to compromise for the good of the community. Most good decisions are based on a compromise and a will benefit all involved even though maybe nobody gets exactly what they wanted.
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Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
11-10-2004 14:55
From: Billy Grace
1. Will the senate debate RL issues or just issues pertaining to the city? To clarify what this means will decisions will be made on specific issues like say freedom of speech (or whatever) as it pertains to SL or how do we promote freedom of speech (or whatever) in RL through SL.

2. Will the main focus be on RL politics or on forming a political structure that will be a new creation?

3. What is your vision about how RL and SL politics will be mixed? Maybe this is a more to the point question.

1. The senate will exist only to serve the city (and other cities) in SL. However, we should consider how a successful virtual political system could pass benefits and knowledge back to those in RL. I don't think that should be part of the official government though.

2. The main focus is definitely to form a novel political structure that improves on all existing RL structures. I don't want to pull a semifunctional U.S. political system into SL.

3. Initially I see RL politics existing as an extracurricular activity like the rally and don't intend to bring RL politics into the city's politics. Kendra and I, however, have talked about the importance such a project could be as a tool to educate players and people on alternative forms of government and voting. In that way we hope to have our SL government influence RL.

~Ulrika~
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Pirate Cotton
DarkLifer
Join date: 26 Sep 2003
Posts: 538
11-10-2004 14:59
Your analysis is astute, Ulrika, but you still didn't think to stop the event until after the discussion. I think that's what has got a lot of people going here.

PC
Talen Morgan
Amused
Join date: 2 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,097
11-10-2004 15:01
From: Ulrika Zugzwang
I think it might be a little more complicated than the issue of whether or not people think we should mix SL and RL politics.

I believe that Talen is looking to promote an SL government and is concerned that linking the city with external politics could sabotage this vision by creating a perceived bias. I think he is right and we need to discuss how we are going to mitigate this potential.

In the case of Pendari, I get the feeling that she opposed the message personally and is nervous about being associated with that message by means of the group. I think she will stay in the group if we can find a way to compartmentalize the RL politics.

In my case I am obsessed with politics, philosophy, and morality and love rolling around in the mess like a little piggy.

Do I think that RL and SL politics should be mixed? Yes! We should be able to talk about RL politics in Neualtenburg just like I can talk about SL politics in San Francisco. We should be able to have rallies, protests, and moderated debates in the soon-to-be-built senate.

However, I recognize and respect Talen and Pendari's viewpoints and think having them in the group is a privilege that is worth making compromises for. I think both of them have strong arguments on grounds of conflict of interest. I think a compromise will be reached quickly. After that I'll be on to my next controversy. :)

~Ulrika~


I think there is no way around the fact that rl and sl politics will get mixed...we come to the table with certain things we believe in from the outside. My point was never that these two can't exist together in some form but rather we need to define that form and what it means to us before any political events are held. This doesn't mean that the government should be made of real world agendas,it means that because we are who we are some of that will come through but hopefully in a new and unique government.

There is another issue that is intertwined in the fact that we will be watched and anything that we do will be seen in a certain light ang gauged against what we say the city is about. The city in and of itself has to be foremost before any individual.

I'm not asking for any compromises....I'd rather fight ....The main reason I voiced objection is because there was an event of a political nature being held without any communication to the other group members and before we have come together on a constitution.

I also felt that the way the event was written would show the city and the project in a bad light. If you sought both sides of the opinion It might have been better to post the event as a political disscusion based on the recent election and how it relates to the war in iraq. Anyone could come and have a heated debate and I woulp pop the popcorn. The way the event was listed was meant to inflame and it did...I think it could have been done in a way that the city was made to look good.
a lost user
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11-10-2004 15:04
From: Ulrika Zugzwang
1. The senate will exist only to serve the city (and other cities) in SL. However, we should consider how a successful virtual political system could pass benefits and knowledge back to those in RL. I don't think that should be part of the official government though.

2. The main focus is definitely to form a novel political structure that improves on all existing RL structures. I don't want to pull a semifunctional U.S. political system into SL.

3. Initially I see RL politics existing as an extracurricular activity like the rally and don't intend to bring RL politics into the city's politics. Kendra and I, however, have talked about the importance such a project could be as a tool to educate players and people on alternative forms of government and voting. In that way we hope to have our SL government influence RL.

~Ulrika~


Thank you for the clarification. I did read all of the materials on the links that you provided and found nothing even remotely comprehensive as what you just said. In regards to Neualtinburg being within the constraints of your answers I am still interested in helping. I look forward to hearing what is said at the meeting tonight, witnessing how you handle issues and conflicts within your group and then we can go from there.
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Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
11-10-2004 15:50
From: Pirate Cotton
Your analysis is astute, Ulrika, but you still didn't think to stop the event until after the discussion. I think that's what has got a lot of people going here.
Ha ha. Didn't think? I assure you there is nothing in this situation before or after, that wasn't thoroughly thought through. You don't think what is now one of the most viewed threads in the off-topic forum just happened by accident did you?

~Ulrika~
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Talen Morgan
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Join date: 2 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,097
11-10-2004 15:54
Pirate, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that the event was two fold....certain button pushers know what buttons to push and what will happen when they are pushed.....and this thread was no accident....

looks like it attained its goal as well......although calling meeting would have sufficed ;)
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
11-10-2004 15:59
From: Talen Morgan
The main reason I voiced objection is because there was an event of a political nature being held without any communication to the other group members and before we have come together on a constitution.

I also felt that the way the event was written would show the city and the project in a bad light. If you sought both sides of the opinion It might have been better to post the event as a political disscusion based on the recent election and how it relates to the war in iraq. Anyone could come and have a heated debate and I woulp pop the popcorn. The way the event was listed was meant to inflame and it did...I think it could have been done in a way that the city was made to look good.
Totally. I see that now and agree with you. We'll fix it so it doesn't happen again, when we all talk tonight. I think we might even benefit from the creation of a provisional government until the official elections. Perhaps you'd like to help with that maybe.

Also, cross my heart, I swear I did not list the event in a way that was meant to upset you at all! I'm not one for secretive passive-aggressive attacks. I prefer to pounce like a mad ferret latching on to my victim's nose in furry death grip.

~Ulrika~
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Talen Morgan
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Join date: 2 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,097
11-10-2004 16:02
From: Ulrika Zugzwang
Totally. I see that now and agree with you. We'll fix it so it doesn't happen again, when we all talk tonight. I think we might even benefit from the creation of a provisional government until the official elections. Perhaps you'd like to help with that maybe.

Also, cross my heart, I swear I did not list the event in a way that was meant to upset you at all! I'm not one for secretive passive-aggressive attacks. I prefer to pounce like a mad ferret latching on to my victim's nose in furry death grip.

~Ulrika~


I wasn't upset....asshat real world politics rarely upset me nor do the views of their participants.....just thinking of how the city is viewed....besides someone has to keep your ass in line.
Ace Cassidy
Resident Bohemian
Join date: 5 Apr 2004
Posts: 1,228
11-11-2004 04:19
I've done a Find/People quite a number of times over the last few days, hoping to find Kathy Yamamoto in-world so that I could personally apologize. But since its apparent that her SL cycles are different than mine, I figured I'd better say something here, rather than let this linger.

While I was livid over the "Oh. And Ace? I'll be looking for a way to protest at your Pro-War Monument as well" comment, I'm afraid that I let my anger get the best of me.

From: Ace Cassidy
If you want a fight over this, bring it on, Quaker-girl...

- Ace


That comment was rude, totally inappropriate, and way out of line, and I would like to apologize to Kathy.

I'm sorry Kathy for bringing religion into the fray, and will do my best to not let such a thing happen again.

- Ace
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Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
11-11-2004 08:43
From: Ace Cassidy
I'm sorry Kathy for bringing religion into the fray, and will do my best to not let such a thing happen again.
Well, that's just cool. Now we know why they call you "Ace". :D

~Ulrika~
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Chik-chik-chika-ahh
Wiggle Biggles
Second Life Resident
Join date: 18 Oct 2004
Posts: 645
11-11-2004 08:46
Goodmorning :)
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
11-11-2004 11:09
From: Wiggle Biggles
Goodmorning :)
I have had it with your maddening rhetoric! ;)
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