Antiwar and Anti-Bush Rally

Well, my position is that, if the constitution for Neualtenburg limits speech to only allow Second Life role-playing, then I am likely to consider the governmental experiment too feeble to be of any validity. What kind of government has to legislate "reality"?

On the other hand, I have no problem with a constitutional system that tries to meet the needs of all members. For instance, there may be laws that govern the use of the town name, or the town square, or town emblems when making political statements.

I haven't moved out yet, either, by the way.

Talen, It seems to me that your concern is that the rally will be construed as the voice of Neualtenburg entire. Would it help if the event was clearly sponsored by the SDF representing a political voice within (but not speaking for) the Neualtenburg community?

As I've said, there is no current law determining that a given citizen, or group of citizens requires permission of the group as a whole to hold an event. I didn't have permission to hold the Oktoberfest, and nobody has had any other events or asked me if they could throw any events.

As for me, I would only pull out if the discussion (and or protest) of RW events is forbidden in Neualtenburg.

This is part of the reason I feel a strong need to pull out of the project. Here you have two very strong and committed persons in the group that feel that Real World politics should have some place in Neualtenburg. As a personal opinion, I think that is just fine for those who want it! It is just simply not what I signed up for myself. And I can forsee the project probably going in a direction that I would probably have a hard time getting into based on this aspect. So for me, it is easier for me to pull out now, and in the future perhaps support the project as a vistor rather than as a member. I would rather leave with no hard feelings on my part about others, and I hope others will harbor no hard feelings for me. Just understand that we had different ideas about what this project was supposed to be about.

I would absolutely love to hear Haney's view on this thread.

I know *I* would feel better if, until there is a constitution, the City of Neualtenburg does NOT speak for itself in public.

Until the constitution, the City is just a name on sign.

I would not presume to speak for some ofthe participants. And they, obviously, would not think to speak for me.

No hard feelings from me, Pendari. None at all

No hard feelings on my part. Though, as a matter of fact, I would MUCH rather you stayed to assert your perspective in the constitutional process. I feel that a strong moderating presence in this sort of process is crucial.

I know that sounds strange coming from someone as apparently radical as I. Some folks reading this might assume I'd rather have only my own views represented during the constitutional process. But they'd be mistaken.

The constitution is the keel of a Ship of State, not the itinerary. It's the point of balance. The anchor point. It's there to protect those with little power from those with much power. Not to serve the adgenda of any extreme.

You sound like a good voice to have around during its construction.

I suspect you and I BOTH may leave shortly after, and for different reasons, I suspect. But it's such a noble attempt I'd hate to leave it to only radicals - of any stripe.

Thank you Kendra

And Thank you Kathy. A very nice response and reasonable request. I do have more on this issue I would like to state, but alas I need to get ready to go to a business meeting. I will however be back before this event. I do not wish to attend the event though. But I will hold off on giving my resignation to the Neualtenburg group if someone tonight at the event will please do me one favor. I would really love it if someone please makes sure that it is known to visitors that not everyone in the group supports the event. And that this particular event is not neccessarily a sign of things to come in the Neualtenburg project. It is simply a personal event being held on the land that the Neualtenburg group currently owns.

I will post more on my feelings tonight. And perhaps we could have another group meeting ASAP to perhaps set some ground rules in place while we start actively working on our constitution?

Thanks for listening!

I read in this thread that there are those who feel that the project will ultimately fail due to the injection of RL politics and controversy into Neualtenburg. Let me tell you that this thread right here is the first time that Neualtenburg has truly succeeded. In this thread you are doing nothing less than defining freedom of speech, the right to assembly, and the political boundaries for all future citizens. This intellectual process is the Neualtenburg Projekt and so far it's a smashing success.

I'm uplifted by this controversy as the project has been quiet for the past few weeks. Almost all progress in the city infrastructure has been made by Kendra Bancroft, Urusula Zapata, BladeDancer Pendragon, or myself. Work on the constitution and political system, coding, and event planning has stopped due to lack of participation. With that said, I recommend you take your angst and concerns and direct them to useful output in the Neualtenburg Constitution thread. It's been there for weeks. For those who wish to forbid assembly which is not approved by land owners or the majority, enter it there. For those who wish for a ban on all RL politics, enter it there.

Until the constitution is defined and there are limits to the extent of our ability to assemble freely, I see no reason why this rally cannot continue. However, I understand the needs of those who have supported this project so far and do admit that there is a conflict of interest. With that said I will not show up for the rally and I will not initiate any further rallies or protests in the city until the constitution is defined.


I'd like to finish with a few quotes from the thread:

Kathy Yamamoto said, "In America, there is NEVER a PUBLIC space that is inappropriate for political speech."

Talen Morgan said, "The fact remains that bringing real world politics to Neualtenburg is clearly a conflict of interest and will only undermine the experiment. ... We have a chance here to really do something."

Kendra Bancroft said, "... the only way to guarantee it never happened would be to begin with the premise that all opinion be forbidden. I don't particularly like that idea at all."

Profound! The Neualtenburg Projekt exists to find compromise between competing ideologies like those seen above. I'm tickled to have such interesting people in the project with me.


Finally, in any group competing for direction there will always be those who are predisposed to making a political statement through flight or abstinence. In this case it manifests itself in a loss of land-tier support for the city. While withdrawal of support might be initially satisfying, it ultimately leaves you without a voice and deprives a community of what could have been a valuable alternative viewpoint. If you're upset and still holding land, I congratulate you. You're exactly the kind of citizen a healthy social democracy needs! I encourage you to submit content for the constitution and run for office in January.

~Ulrika~

I for one will be there, head held high and voice strong...BUT...in deference to those members of the Neualtenburg Projekt who do not wish the city to be misconstrued as a left-wing asylum, I'll be very very clear that I represent the SDF and NOT Neualtenburg.

To that end I'll be turning off my Neualtenburger Group flag and turning on my Democratic Socialist Flag. I hope that helps. If Ulrika could re-word the event listing to the effect that this is an SDF event and not a Neualtenburg event that would be great.

Oktoberfest and an anti war/bush rally are two very different events.....with 2 very distinct reactions from the citezenry of SL. Whether its the SDF or any other group holding it the reaction is the same ...it undermines the project to the point that few will want to be involved which negates the idea of having discourse when the only inhabitants all agree.

What if the sitting elected officials make a law saying during our term no RL politics are allowed in town...still gonna pull out or are you going to stick by the laws of the land?

In light of Pendari's request, I'd like to request that Neualtenburg group titles, and direct reference to Neualtenberg in signage, be kept to the barest minimum tonight.

In fact, I would like to go further and propose that once there is a group formed at the city, they teleport en masse to the Welcome Area or Jessie or other suitable PUBLIC space (NOT the memorial!) instead of marching through Neualtenburg.

I would find it an interesting challenge to be political without reference to RL politics. Remember, I was the one who initially protested the incusrion of RL politics in Jessie. (Boy was THAT an adventure!)

But I'd have to ask one question: do you consider the US Constitution to be outside politics? I could live with that, but I'd have to fight extra hard to get everything important into the Neualtenburg constitution then. And then I'd be surprised if - sooner or later - the US Constitution didn't leak back into our politics in a dramatic way.

Is the American constitution applicable to Neualtenburg?

Sounds fine to me.

This is exactly what I was afraid of.

This is not part of the experiment. If you all want to get together to hammer out a constitution thats fine..I'll be there with bells on to make sure its a fair and equal constitution representing all the peoples of SL.

But thats not what you want . You want to say yay its working and we are still having the event. No events of a political nature should take place in Neualtenberg until a time that the constitution has been ratified. Having this even against the views of the rest of the group members is basically telling us ....tough shit this what want and what we are doing...Thats not government thats what destroys governments.

Brilliant suggestions!

I've modified the event listing. It can be read here.

How do you all feel? Are we close to a compromise? I want to make sure we are all comfortable with the event.

~Ulrika~

I realize I'm no longer a member and at least one other has expressed disinterest in my opinion completely. However, I'm with Talen on this one Ulrika and feel it is too little too late. That event, and this thread, sat out here all day long for everyone to see and has now tainted the projekt.
Good Day.

You fail to see the big picture...The US constitution has failed in the past....what if you could be part of something new that could have real life implications?
What if we did this right...it might not just become a model for virtual worlds but could have real life results. By clouding the waters before there is even a start you accomplish only one thing....the driving of people away that would and could have had a good influence on the project.

To answer your question :no the United States Constitution should have absolutely no part in Neualtenberg. Why? Because the citezenry of Second Life is not all American. We live in a very diverse virtual world why would you seek to hold us back by following a document that is less than it could be?

OK. I would be amenable to moving the location of the rally. I think it might be fun to get a line of protesters to walk across a couple of sims with signs.

I must say that, if we move the protest rally point, it does detract from Neualtenburg's legitimacy as a politics-safe zone. Further, it will eliminate any press via blogs or SL publications that our city could benefit from. I remind you that there are four avatars who have been working tirelessly for weeks now and it would be nice to show off what we've done so far, recruit new members who are interested in politics, and pave the way for future in-city political activity.

~Ulrika~

By changing the event listing to that of a SDF sponsored event in Neualtenberg drives the last nail. BY doing this you are basically saying that the SDF is the ruling faction of Neualtenberg and we still don't give a shit what the group members think....anyone coming to the event will forever associate the two.

I thought the project is what was important and we were putting away the baseball bats to try and come together to create something new...obviously I had higher hopes than most.

I still oppose the war.

I will not be attending any rallies tonight.

- Ace

I agree you have done a wonderfull job with the city...have an event thats for and about Neualtenberg so people can begin to understand and see whats happening there....withought outside agendas

Oops! I think I just found the problem. We have a miscommunication.

The city has always been designed to be a social democracy from the very beginning. It's clearly stated in the Neualtenburg FAQ and in the Constitution thread. As a matter of fact it's the only thing that I've been insistent on. We wish to create an egalitarian society where all individuals are respected regardless of their appeal to the majority. The philosophy of the SDF will be at the core of the constitution.

Within this constitutional framework, I hope for there to be several competing ideologies implemented as factions or parties that, through compromise, collectively provide direction for the city.

~Ulrika~

Edited for grooviness.

True but by naming it .....oh why bother .

It's very apparent that this was an exersize in futility. I for one had hoped we could all come together and create something together without the bullshit. If you truly wished to create a society where all individuals were respected we wouldn't be having this arguement. The city or the framework of what would become the city is owned by the group....The group was blindsided by individuals who had no respect for what other individuals were saying.

There is no government Ulrika....it's just you Kathy, and Kendra....

Yes you laid out what you you belived was to be the core and some of thos things I think were good but in all there was to be an elected government and a constitution to be ratified. The people were to decide...not you...not Kendra...not Kathy.

This says it all for me:



it's not cool its telling me to take my opinion and fuck off....duly noted

*hands Talen the club card*