Before we can transition our social democracy to a democratically elected representative body, we need a constitution. Let's start the discussion here and once things start to coverge we'll move the documentation to a wiki.
~Ulrika~
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Ulrika Zugzwang
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09-17-2004 21:28
Before we can transition our social democracy to a democratically elected representative body, we need a constitution. Let's start the discussion here and once things start to coverge we'll move the documentation to a wiki.
~Ulrika~ _____________________
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Ulrika Zugzwang
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09-20-2004 15:27
The first step to forming a constitution is articulating the philosophy which we hope will define our city. I'll start with a little bit of my philosophy and we can add, subtract, or modify it. Note that these thoughts are quite random at the moment but I thought it would be good just to get them down.
~Ulrika~ _____________________
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Kendra Bancroft
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09-20-2004 16:13
Interesting. I'd like to address this points one by one.
I would like a social democracy. Social democracies generally do not see a conflict between a capitalist market economy and the definition of a socialist society, and support reforming capitalism in an attempt to make it more equitable through the creation and maintenance of a welfare state. -- I think a social democracy is a good starting point. though in keeping with the architecture I suggest a medieval model which eschews feudalism in favor of a social democracy. To that end I suggest in keeping with a synergistic entity a formation of a government based on guilds of influence which would offer a check and balance system. To that end I propose a three pronged government composed of: an Artist's Guild (with apprenticeship structures and a self imposed quality standard) a Merchant's Guild (which sets standards of sales tax and further assesses percentages based on collaborative efforts) and a Judiciary (which acts as a mediator as opposed to a legislative or punitive body) Hmmm. Perhaps the Judiciary could decide how these payments are distributed. This gets sticky as the body that controls the purse strings has too much power. Maybe it's best to have a system whereby the three Guilds would be able to come to a consesus? Thoughts on this? -- Two or more collaborators either coming together on their own, commisioned by another Guild (or private citizen), or assigned as a work of the Artist's Guild to be included for sale in the vendor system if judged of sufficient quality by the Artist's Guild. -- Merchant's Guild charged with the task of setting percentages? I'm attempting here to keep powers of the purse-string to an impartial source. If the Artist's Guild for example were to set it's own prices and percentages, Artists might quickly become the power element to the city. Likewise if the Merchant's Guild were to have say about what gets sold --they would have to much power. Disputes between Merchants and Artists could be settled by the Judiciary which functions in an administrative capacity soley. see above. I like. Though a stamped logo might be easily counterfeited. Possible to include some manner of unmodifiable script element? Certificate of authenticity? Just shooting out ideas here. anyways my 2 cents here ![]() --Kendra |
Talen Morgan
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09-20-2004 16:19
I don't think the government should solely be in charge of finding new residents. The residents themselves I believe will do a much better job of this if we do a good job with the government.
If we show that this can be done and done well then the citizens themselves will be telling friends that this is the place to be. I think the the one thing we need to be wary of it too much government too fast. _____________________
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Kendra Bancroft
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09-20-2004 16:25
Originally posted by Talen Morgan I don't think the government should solely be in charge of finding new residents. The residents themselves I believe will do a much better job of this if we do a good job with the government. If we show that this can be done and done well then the citizens themselves will be telling friends that this is the place to be. I think the the one thing we need to be wary of it too much government too fast. I took "government's responsabilty" here to mean part of the government's mission statement --not exclsive domain of the government --at any rate I agree with you, Talon. I think the goal here is NOT to set up a government that's a seprate entity so much as a way for the people to manifest their collective will. |
Ulrika Zugzwang
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09-20-2004 21:39
Originally posted by Kendra Bancroft I took "government's responsabilty" here to mean part of the government's mission statement --not exclsive domain of the government --at any rate I agree with you, Talon. I think the goal here is NOT to set up a government that's a seprate entity so much as a way for the people to manifest their collective will. Exactly, Kendra. ![]() The government should be responsible for finding new members, scheduling creative events, and moving the city in new directions to keep the experiment alive. Leaders should be elected based on where they would like to see the group go. I say this because I often find myself in need of resources. For instance, while building my Fachwerk, I realized I didn't have any red flowers for the windows. By chance I ran into Toy LaFollette who gave me what I needed but wouldn't it be nice if there were a liaison that we could contact who would help find resources. The elected official could provide us with an office called "resource liaison" whose job is to do nothing but help find elements for city builds. This is just one example. We'll actually get to choose from many proposed services offered to us by our candidates when it's time. The goal is to get a service from our tax, a service that will make it easier for us to work as a group. As for going slow with government, I say we just go for it. We should elect public servants with short terms, perhaps 30 days at a time at first and terminate them immediately if they ever violate our trust. ~Ulrika~ _____________________
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Ulrika Zugzwang
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09-21-2004 11:50
Originally posted by Kendra Bancroft I think a social democracy is a good starting point. though in keeping with the architecture I suggest a medieval model which eschews feudalism in favor of a social democracy. To that end I suggest in keeping with a synergistic entity a formation of a government based on guilds of influence which would offer a check and balance system. To that end I propose a three pronged government composed of: an Artist's Guild (with apprenticeship structures and a self imposed quality standard) a Merchant's Guild (which sets standards of sales tax and further assesses percentages based on collaborative efforts) and a Judiciary (which acts as a mediator as opposed to a legislative or punitive body) I like the idea of the city being both old and modern at the same time both in architecture and politics. Thus it might be interesting to take your concept of guilds and wrap them up in a modern social democracy. What do you think of that idea? If anyone else has any feelings on this subject, feel free to speak up, even if we're in complete disagreement. A team has to feel comfortable disagreeing with each other to really work well together. The best way to get comfortable is to just do it. ![]() ~Ulrika~ _____________________
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Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
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10-19-2004 14:56
I wanted to give a quick status report for how things are moving along in the city by adding some comments to a previous post.
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I'd like to see Neualtenburg and snow-sim themed objects and vehicles from everyone. Even if you just come up with the idea, you'll receive a share of the revenue.
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I hope to have the build mostly complete by the end of November and hand over of the city to the democratically elected senate by the first of the year. ~Ulrika~ _____________________
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Catfart Grayson
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10-24-2004 10:05
I'm happy with the way things are progressing. The ideas and suggestions around the constitution and government sound good to me. Although I dont think its needed at the moment, you might want to take a look at Nomic, a game that can be used to develop rules laws and government structures. At first look it appears daunting, but is easy to 'play' (and fun). main link is here http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/nomic.htm. Goes nicely with a wiki to keep track of the game
I've been trying to think of something that I could build and contribute. Finally found something, so I'm going to have a go at making a sleigh or two. Havnt got much further than looing at RL examples at the moment, I'll keep you all updated. _____________________
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Ulrika Zugzwang
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10-28-2004 13:20
I'm happy with the way things are progressing. The ideas and suggestions around the constitution and government sound good to me. Although I dont think its needed at the moment, you might want to take a look at Nomic, a game that can be used to develop rules laws and government structures. At first look it appears daunting, but is easy to 'play' (and fun). main link is here http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/nomic.htm. Goes nicely with a wiki to keep track of the game I've been trying to think of something that I could build and contribute. Finally found something, so I'm going to have a go at making a sleigh or two. Havnt got much further than looing at RL examples at the moment, I'll keep you all updated. Feel free to ask Kendra for help with textures. She could probably make the sleigh blades from a single texture in a snap. ![]() ~Ulrika~ _____________________
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Chandra Page
Build! Code. Sleep?
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10-29-2004 15:01
That sounds great! There should be some freely available vehicle scripts in the forum script library. If you haven't made a vehicle before, there is a pretty low prim limit on them. I can't recall the number off the top of my head, though. 31, if I remember correctly. So try not to go bonkers making a photorealistic horsie to pull the sleigh. ![]() _____________________
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11-14-2004 08:27
-- I think a social democracy is a good starting point. though in keeping with the architecture I suggest a medieval model which eschews feudalism in favor of a social democracy. To that end I suggest in keeping with a synergistic entity a formation of a government based on guilds of influence which would offer a check and balance system. To that end I propose a three pronged government composed of: an Artist's Guild (with apprenticeship structures and a self imposed quality standard) a Merchant's Guild (which sets standards of sales tax and further assesses percentages based on collaborative efforts) and a Judiciary (which acts as a mediator as opposed to a legislative or punitive body) Call me crazy but I like what we have in the US. Executive, Legislative and Judicial branches of government. Executive - An elected President who either approves or vetoes bills submitted buy the Legislature. Legislative - A Senate, which proposes and pass bills to go to the president on non-judicial issues. Judicial - A Supreme Court which settles disputes, creates laws etc... The guilds that you mention would be naturally influential groups and maybe a starting place for political parties. 3 equal branches with a division of power. Sounds good to me. What do y'all think? _____________________
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Ulrika Zugzwang
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11-14-2004 11:59
Yes Billy! The form of the government will be very similar to this, however with a twist.
The government will have three branches, the Representative, Artisanal, and Philosophic branch (names and roles are subject to change). These are modifications of the U.S. system to improve existing deficiencies, to better suit SL, and to meet the needs of a Social Democracy. Overview of Branches
Discussion Each branch is designed to meet a single critical need of a city in SL. The Representative branch supports land, the Artisanal branch provides goods, and the Philosophical branch provides order. The Representative branch is designed to maintain all things which relate to land. It must increase the population and size of the city. It must monitor resource usage on existing land. It must make sure the city has sufficient land-tier donations. It schedules official events to increase dwell. It is these metrics by which success will be judged. Note that it is a requirement also, that members of this branch own land (this is controversial and might change). In short this is a land-focused legislative branch. The Artisanal branch is designed to create and sell goods. It is responsible for generating all income beyond dwell. It is responsible for building and maintaining the city infrastructure. It handles the vendors. It supports events. All members are required to be part of a collaborative effort to build items for the city. In short this is a goods-focused workers union. The Philosophic branch is designed to maintain order. It is responsible for interpreting and modifying the constitution. It settles disputes. Has veto and absolvo rights over laws passed by the senate (limitations to this are under discussion). In short this is an order-focused university. What's interesting and different from most governments, is that traditionally nonpolitical bodies (a union and university) have power within the government. Additionally, members of those groups are not elected democratically. Only the Representative branch has elected officials. Fascinating isn't it!? The Republic All branches and citizens exist within and for the Republic, in this case it is the SL group "Neualtenburg". All land and goods created under the Neualtenburg group remain property of the group. If a member or faction withdraws from the city they forfeit their right to all property created for the city and must hand over all goods. The city is not a true democracy, rather it is a social democratic republic. It combines elements of democracy, socialism, and meritocracy with the goal of maximizing benefit to the society while respecting individual rights and promoting complete equality. Citizen Rights Citizens will be limited to contributing up to 4096 m^2 and the maximum tier will later drop to 1024 m^2. All those who donate land tiers must give a week notice before leaving the group. Similarly, the city will give a week notice before ejecting members. All citizens may vote in elections and hold positions in one or more of the government branches provided requirements are met. Citizens may lease property from the city for dwelling space or hold events (handled by the Representative branch) or sell approved goods in the city (handled by the Artisanal branch). Unofficial free events do not require approval. ~Ulrika~ _____________________
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Kendra Bancroft
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11-14-2004 13:38
Sounds good except there seems to be a lack of power from which the Artisinal Branch is derived. Other than the power of wealth distribution ( in reality set by The City) and aesthetic look of the City, the current standing of the Artisinal Branch seems to be an indentured servitude of the workers and merchant class, subject to the whims of The Executive and Philosophical Branches. Explain to me where The Artisinal had a check and balance within this system.
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Ulrika Zugzwang
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11-14-2004 14:52
Sounds good except there seems to be a lack of power from which the Artisinal Branch is derived. Other than the power of wealth distribution ( in reality set by The City) and aesthetic look of the City, the current standing of the Artisinal Branch seems to be an indentured servitude of the workers and merchant class, subject to the whims of The Executive and Philosophical Branches. Explain to me where The Artisinal had a check and balance within this system. First each branch has two roles, a service role and a governmental role. They are:
From the service perspective we are all indentured servants and must work together to meet Haney's challenge. From the government perspective we are all autonomous but require a method of checking the power of the other groups. Thus we need to define two relationships between each group, one collaborative and the other combative. The collaborative relationships are defined by service roles and the combative relationships are defined by our governmental roles. As an example, for collaborative roles, representatives work with artisans on event planning; representatives work with philosophers on event monitoring; and artisans and philosophers work together to monitor copyright. For combative roles, the Representative branch is able to pass laws which affect the other branches, the Artisanal branch can veto laws on fiscal concerns, and the Philosophical branch can veto laws on constitutional grounds. I've attached a picture for clarity. Note that this all assumes that these are the service and governmental roles we want each branch to take. Now is the perfect time to modify this if we'd like. We can change anything at this point. If anyone is unhappy with anything, toss it out now and we'll see what we can do. ~Ulrika~ _____________________
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a lost user
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11-14-2004 15:22
Ok, I have some questions:
1. Will there be no president? 2. If the Representative branch is limited to land owners how is it representational of the citizens? 3. How can the Artisanal and Philosophic branches be representational if not elected at all? 4. Wouldn’t the roll of these groups be better served as committees like say the department of commerce which is headed by a Secretary of Commerce? 5. Why is the government involved in anything but governing? I.E. passing laws, vetoing laws, settling disputes, forming and modifying the constitution, settling disputes etc… Why would it be involved directly in the running of the city? 6. Who keeps the Philisophical branch in check? 7. Doesn't the Philisophical branch have too much power if they get to veto the Representative branch too? Personally I have a hart time imagining a union and university running 2/3 of the government. It seems like it would be much cleaner with executive, judicial and legislative lawmaking bodies and leave the running of the city to several departments headed by a secretary. _____________________
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Kendra Bancroft
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11-14-2004 15:35
Ok, I have some questions: 1. Will there be no president? 2. If the representative branch is limited to land owners how is it representational of the citizens? 3. How can the artisanal and philosophic branches be representational if not elected at all? 4. Wouldn’t the roll of these groups be better served as committees like say the department of commerce which is headed by a Secretary of Commerce? 5. Why is the government involved in anything but governing? I.E. passing laws, vetoing laws, settling disputes, forming and modifying the constitution, settling disputes etc… Why would it be involved directly in the running of the city? Personally I have a hart time imagining a union and university running 2/3 of the government. It seems like it would be much cleaner with executive, judicial and legislative lawmaking bodies and leave the running of the city to several departments headed by a secretary. I'd have to strongly say no to a federalist republic as outlined above. |
a lost user
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11-14-2004 15:38
I'd have to strongly say no to a federalist republic as outlined above. I am very cureous as to your reasons. Could you please give some insight. _____________________
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Kendra Bancroft
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11-14-2004 16:06
I am very cureous as to your reasons. Could you please give some insight. Very simple. Basing a cyber-city government with different problems, issues and decidely differnt population on the federalist republic model of a nation-state existing in the RW seems to me to be a non-reasoned knee jerk response and not an experiment --which is after all is said and done what the we are doing in the Neualtenburg Projekt. |
Ulrika Zugzwang
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11-14-2004 16:10
1. Will there be no president?
The senate will be filled with members from each faction, with each faction receiving a number of seats proportional to the percentage vote. All factions will have at least one representative in the senate. Votes will be tallied in two ways, one seat gets one vote and one faction gets one vote (details to be determined). The president will simply be the head of the faction which receives the most votes. We'll probably call the position "Burgermeister" instead of "president" to keep with the theme of the city and to leave the title of president for the first multicity leader. We have plans to expand. ![]() 2. If the representative branch is limited to land owners how is it representational of the citizens? It's representational in the sense that the citizens vote for factions to represent their point of view. The factions then pursue their agenda in lieu of the individuals. So requiring land ownership is still representational, but it's bad in that it does not provide all citizens with equal access to Representative-branch participation. Requiring land ownership is controversial and it might go away, yet it makes sense given that we want people who are invested in the city in those positions and the Representative branch is required to take care of land. Let's talk this one over! 3. How can the artisanal and philosophic branches be representational if not elected at all? They are not representational at all! The Philosophic branch is a meritocracy and the Artisanal branch is a worker's collective. They exist to mitigate the detrimental side of unchecked democracy (philosophic branch) and to prevent exploitation of workers by capitalists (artisanal branch). 4. Wouldn’t the roll of these groups be better served as committees like say the department of commerce which is headed by a Secretary of Commerce? Our government is a lot like the U.S.'s except the executive and legislative branches are combined (much like modern European parliaments) and a workers collective is given a direct role in the government. This is something completely different and meant to reflect the important role content creation plays in SL. Also, as I expand on below, I don't think we have enough people right now for more than three wee little branches. 5. Why is the government involved in anything but governing? I.E. passing laws, vetoing laws, settling disputes, forming and modifying the constitution, settling disputes etc… Why would it be involved directly in the running of the city? Personally I have a hart time imagining a union and university running 2/3 of the government. It seems like it would be much cleaner with executive, judicial and legislative lawmaking bodies and leave the running of the city to several departments headed by a secretary. Good questions. A lot of it comes from the reality that we are a small group. We simply don't have the numbers to support the time costs of a complex governmental hierarchy. The bureaucracy would kill us. Instead what we need in SL is people to schedule events, people to create themed goods, and people to monitor the events so the Lindens don't have to. Thus each of those fundamental tasks is mapped to a branch of the government. It's a very applied government that's optimized for SL and based on public service (the way it should be). Finally, a lot of it also has to do with my personal political ideology. I feel a multipart representative senate is vastly superior to our executive branch. In the U.S. even though the popular vote was split fifty-fifty, a single party takes complete control of the executive branch. Further a two-party system disenfranchises those with marginal viewpoints reducing voter participation, homogenizing politics, and polarizing the populace. Thus I instituted a multiparty system without an executive branch. The philosophical branch functions like our judicial branch but with greater breadth. All tools of philosophy from law, to science, to logic can be applied to filter out unconstitutional, unscientific, and illogical laws. This can be useful for vetoing laws which while politically popular (as it helps people get elected) and publicly popular (it benefits individuals) is nonetheless detrimental to the society as a whole. In the U.S. there is virtually nothing that can stop this kind of legislation (irresponsible tax cuts are one example). Finally, the government is set up to be a social democracy and at the heart of every socialist movement is the worker. It seemed natural to me to elevate the artisan (which is currently the victim of great exploitation in SL) and give them direct power in the government. This is to prevent the government from turning into a corporation riding the backs of the artisans. I gave the artisans not only a say in the law but complete control of the city treasury to prevent wealth extraction! I'm telling you, if we get this working, it'll be someone's dissertation. ![]() ~Ulrika~ _____________________
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a lost user
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11-14-2004 18:24
Very simple. Basing a cyber-city government with different problems, issues and decidely differnt population on the federalist republic model of a nation-state existing in the RW seems to me to be a non-reasoned knee jerk response and not an experiment --which is after all is said and done what the we are doing in the Neualtenburg Projekt. I am unclear with how different issues have anything to do with what form of government is used. Please explain the “knee jerk” comment because I honestly do not understand it. I would contend that this will be much different from the RW system used in the US. It should be only used as a base to be modified to fit the unique needs of the community so I wouldn’t say that if used in that context it would be any less an experiment than something else. What we need is not necessarily something that is completely different but a government that works effectively and has the ability to attract interest from the rest of the SL community. Please know that in regard to this project I am only involved to help you succeed and am in fact on your side. Maybe it is just me Kendra but your posts seem to me to have the same tone that we have communicated on these forums in the past and I would like to put that behind us. Can we agree to work together here with regard to Neualtenburg? Please know that the questions I am asking is to have a better understanding of what y’all are doing here so I can help. If in fact it is only me then I apologize but I think it is better to confront issues instead of allowing them to fester Ulrika, ty for your detailed response. It has given me some things to think about and I will try to respond with some helpful suggestions. _____________________
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a lost user
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11-14-2004 19:41
1. Will there be no president? The senate will be filled with members from each faction, with each faction receiving a number of seats proportional to the percentage vote. All factions will have at least one representative in the senate. Votes will be tallied in two ways, one seat gets one vote and one faction gets one vote (details to be determined). The president will simply be the head of the faction which receives the most votes. We'll probably call the position "Burgermeister" instead of "president" to keep with the theme of the city and to leave the title of president for the first multicity leader. We have plans to expand. ![]() Please explain what a faction is and how it is formed. Is that like a political party? What will the powers of the “Burgermeister” be. 2. If the representative branch is limited to land owners how is it representational of the citizens? It's representational in the sense that the citizens vote for factions to represent their point of view. The factions then pursue their agenda in lieu of the individuals. So requiring land ownership is still representational, but it's bad in that it does not provide all citizens with equal access to Representative-branch participation. Requiring land ownership is controversial and it might go away, yet it makes sense given that we want people who are invested in the city in those positions and the Representative branch is required to take care of land. Let's talk this one over! Yes, we do want people who are invested in the city in those positions. A set of requirements to be a resident could take care of this. 3. How can the artisanal and philosophic branches be representational if not elected at all? They are not representational at all! The Philosophic branch is a meritocracy and the Artisanal branch is a worker's collective. They exist to mitigate the detrimental side of unchecked democracy (philosophic branch) and to prevent exploitation of workers by capitalists (artisanal branch). Ok, without me googling it please explain what a meritocracy is. The Philisophical branch seems to me to have too much power in this format and the Artisanal not enough. I am not sure I understand how this prevents exploitation of workers either. 4. Wouldn’t the roll of these groups be better served as committees like say the department of commerce which is headed by a Secretary of Commerce? Our government is a lot like the U.S.'s except the executive and legislative branches are combined (much like modern European parliaments) I agree with combining the legislative branches. and a workers collective is given a direct role in the government. This is something completely different and meant to reflect the important role content creation plays in SL. Also, as I expand on below, I don't think we have enough people right now for more than three wee little branches. How many people do we have involved in this anyway? 5. Why is the government involved in anything but governing? I.E. passing laws, vetoing laws, settling disputes, forming and modifying the constitution, settling disputes etc… Why would it be involved directly in the running of the city? Personally I have a hart time imagining a union and university running 2/3 of the government. It seems like it would be much cleaner with executive, judicial and legislative lawmaking bodies and leave the running of the city to several departments headed by a secretary. Good questions. A lot of it comes from the reality that we are a small group. We simply don't have the numbers to support the time costs of a complex governmental hierarchy. The bureaucracy would kill us. Instead what we need in SL is people to schedule events, people to create themed goods, and people to monitor the events so the Lindens don't have to. Thus each of those fundamental tasks is mapped to a branch of the government. It's a very applied government that's optimized for SL and based on public service (the way it should be). Yes, that is a very good point and I agree with the duality of responsibilities you have proposed. This simplifies things for us at first but if this grown we may want to leave it open to compartmentalize responsibilities with specific groups when our numbers allow it. Finally, a lot of it also has to do with my personal political ideology. I feel a multipart representative senate is vastly superior to our executive branch. In the U.S. even though the popular vote was split fifty-fifty, a single party takes complete control of the executive branch. Well, the issue that will come with the senate not having an executive branch to keep it in check is that is will possibly have too much power. Yes, a single parties leader has allot of power but he is elected by a majority of the voting members of the community. Of course we could debate your 50% split but I see no need to go there… hehe Further a two-party system disenfranchises those with marginal viewpoints reducing voter participation, homogenizing politics, and polarizing the populace. Thus I instituted a multiparty system without an executive branch. Ok, that is nice to say but practically how would this work? Whoever is in the minority, and yes there will be someone in the minority, will be disenfranchised. Ultimately the largest party will have the power. How many parties do you envision and how will they be formed? The philosophical branch functions like our judicial branch but with greater breadth. All tools of philosophy from law, to science, to logic can be applied to filter out unconstitutional, unscientific, and illogical laws. This can be useful for vetoing laws which while politically popular (as it helps people get elected) and publicly popular (it benefits individuals) is nonetheless detrimental to the society as a whole. In the U.S. there is virtually nothing that can stop this kind of legislation (irresponsible tax cuts are one example). Who is to say whether something is logical or not? That is often subjective. I am not sure how you envision science playing a roll in this. Please expand on that. I do not follow your tax cut example either. Whose logic do you propose we use? The logic that tax cuts will generate more economic growth is certainly not illogical. Finally, the government is set up to be a social democracy and at the heart of every socialist movement is the worker. It seemed natural to me to elevate the artisan (which is currently the victim of great exploitation in SL) and give them direct power in the government. This is to prevent the government from turning into a corporation riding the backs of the artisans. I gave the artisans not only a say in the law but complete control of the city treasury to prevent wealth extraction! I'm telling you, if we get this working, it'll be someone's dissertation. ![]() ~Ulrika~ Wealth extraction? I agree that the workers and artists need to be involved but will have to give it some thought as to the best way to do this. I look forward to hearing your answers to my questions and will give it more thought. Thanks. _____________________
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Ulrika Zugzwang
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11-14-2004 22:15
Please explain what a faction is and how it is formed. Is that like a political party? What will the powers of the “Burgermeister” be. From a service perspective the Burgermeister will get to lead the effort to increase the land-tier contributions, city size, and population as well as schedule events. From a government perspective they can pursue the creation of laws that match their supporters agenda. Additionally, as the majority faction leader, the Burgermeister will get to speak for and represent the city. What roles do you think we should assign the Burgermeister? Perhaps state-of-the-union addresses in the General topic forum or something along that line. Yes, we do want people who are invested in the city in those positions. A set of requirements to be a resident could take care of this. Ok, without me googling it please explain what a meritocracy is. The Philisophical branch seems to me to have too much power in this format and the Artisanal not enough. I am not sure I understand how this prevents exploitation of workers either. It's difficult to build in checks and balances into a system. When you think about the U.S. system, what power does the Judicial and Executive branch have over the Legislative branch? The Judicial can overturn a law as unconstitutional and the Executive branch can veto a law. Repeat that for all the combinations of branches and you'll see that the checks and balances are relatively simple and operate only within the realm of government that each branch has control over. I tried to do the same thing for our government. Each branch has power within it's own sphere of governmental influence. For instance the Artisanal branch can veto a law if it's fiscally unsound since they're in charge of the finances. The Philosophic branch can veto a law if it's unconstitutional or philosophically unsound. Plus, members of all branches are able to vote for representatives in the Representative branch. As for who has more or less power, it's difficult for me to say. I'm not sure. I'm also not sure that there are enough checks and balances. I thought I would err on the side of simplicity in the beginning. I'm open to suggestions too! How many people do we have involved in this anyway? Well, the issue that will come with the senate not having an executive branch to keep it in check is that is will possibly have too much power. Yes, a single parties leader has allot of power but he is elected by a majority of the voting members of the community. Of course we could debate your 50% split but I see no need to go there… hehe Ok, that is nice to say but practically how would this work? Whoever is in the minority, and yes there will be someone in the minority, will be disenfranchised. Ultimately the largest party will have the power. How many parties do you envision and how will they be formed? Who is to say whether something is logical or not? That is often subjective. I am not sure how you envision science playing a roll in this. Please expand on that. I do not follow your tax cut example either. Whose logic do you propose we use? The logic that tax cuts will generate more economic growth is certainly not illogical. Another example of this behavior is tax cuts or increases passed by majority vote. In Colorado, a law was passed a few years ago giving citizens the ability to approve by vote increases in taxes to support education. Naturally, most people voted down (and continue to vote down) the tax increases year after year slowly starving schools. Schools responded by cutting music, gym, and extracurricular activities. This directly effected test scores, college admission rates, and the socioeconomic status of all children in the district. (You can read about recent controversies here, if you're interested.) Worse still are situations where politicians also reap short-term benefits from tax cuts. For instance, a politician will promise a tax cut (selfish to get elected) and citizens vote them in (selfish to get a refund) at the detriment of the society by driving it into debt. These are good examples of where democracy (mob rule) fails. People will often vote to maximize their short-term personal benefit even if in the long run they will eventually suffer. There should exist a branch which stops this kind of behavior by calling it out and vetoing the tax break for the benefit of the society. Needless to say this has to be a group which is not democratically elected! (I've been thinking about this for a while.) (I've heard democracy described as three wolves and a lamb voting on what's for dinner.) Wealth extraction? Yes! Parasitic wealth extraction. It's the act of removing capital from an economy without benefiting society. A perfect example is the land baron. They purchase large amounts of land and sell it at a markup without adding value to the land or providing a service to those who purchase it. They create a profit without contribution. The opposite of this are hard-working artisans who make clothing, scripts, animations, and objects and sell them for money. They contribute to society by enriching it with their goods. In between are mall owners. They perform a minimum of work building or purchasing infrastructure and charging artisans a weekly fee to sell their wares in a high-traffic area. From a transactional or capitalist standpoint this can be justified as good business, yet mall do great damage to sims and contribute very little to the society in general. The solution is to support individual artisans, to create cooperatives and shared infrastructure to eliminate the need for malls, and to legislate land barons out of existence (although the Lindens will have to do this). This is the goal of the Artisanal branch. ![]() Never thought you'd see a government with both an antidemocratic and anticapitalist stance backed by logical arguments did you? ![]() ~Ulrika~ _____________________
Chik-chik-chika-ahh
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Talen Morgan
Amused
![]() Join date: 2 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,097
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11-15-2004 11:45
As I spoke before with Ulrika on a few parts of the constitution and she knows where I'm coming from I thought I would reiterate these concerns here.
First and foremost I don't believe there should be a land requirement to run for the senate. Firstly that would leave a shallow pool of participants and secondly I think it creates a stuation where the wealthy have the power seemingly. The Philisophical branch is the heavy hitter and will hold a lot of power with the Absolvo/veto power. I think the core of this Arm of the government should be chosen and it should be a mix of all parties concerned . I don't believe the Philisophical arm should elect its own members...there has to be a check system here just for the mere fact that the philisophical branch could very easily hold the other two branches at bay if it so wished. I think that after the core members are chosen that any new member to the Philisophical branch should be nominated by said branch but be confirmed by the senate which will be representitive of all parties. I don't think anyone will have a problem with the absolvo/veto powers if they know that there will be a fair representation of all parties making these decisions. I think by adding these checks will create a balance that will make it hard for any one party to run rampant in any of the 3 houses. |
Satchmo Prototype
eSheep
![]() Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 1,323
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Dissertation
11-15-2004 13:06
1. Will there be no president? I'm telling you, if we get this working, it'll be someone's dissertation. ![]() ~Ulrika~ I was starting to wonder if this was your dissertation. It's fantastically planned out. |