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Neualtenburg Constitution

Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
09-17-2004 21:28
Before we can transition our social democracy to a democratically elected representative body, we need a constitution. Let's start the discussion here and once things start to coverge we'll move the documentation to a wiki.

~Ulrika~
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Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
09-20-2004 15:27
The first step to forming a constitution is articulating the philosophy which we hope will define our city. I'll start with a little bit of my philosophy and we can add, subtract, or modify it. Note that these thoughts are quite random at the moment but I thought it would be good just to get them down.
  1. I would like a social democracy. Social democracies generally do not see a conflict between a capitalist market economy and the definition of a socialist society, and support reforming capitalism in an attempt to make it more equitable through the creation and maintenance of a welfare state.
  2. Given that avatars don't require health care, the income created through taxation will be returned to the citizens mainly in the form of payments for land investors and support for city services (church, government salaries, beautification of the city).
  3. I would like to see all wares for sale by artisans include at least two collaborators from within the city. For instance, my Fachwerk currently in Seefeld will be sold in Neualtenburg with the proceeds split between me (structure), Kendra Bancroft (textures and windows), Toy LaFollette (flowers), and the city (tax). I'd like to see all of us pitch in to enrich each other's products and then sell them in the city with a vendor which splits payments.
  4. To allow for the automatic splitting of payments and taxation, individual objects won't be for sale, rather a vendor will be used. The vendor will be a single standard design used throughout the city.
  5. I would like the government to settle all disputes between artisans.
  6. I'd like for all participants to agree to ethical business practices and agree not to sell wares created in collaboration outside the city or to modify collaborative wares and sell them as their own. (Agree to RATE's membership requirements.)
  7. I'd like all wares made in the city to be stamped with a logo to guarantee authenticity.
  8. The goal is to replace standard single-player "ego" builds with collaboration on all levels.
  9. I'd like a certain portion of taxes to be saved for the creation of a second spin-off city which follows the same ideals but with different officers and a different theme. If this is successful, I'd like to see it spread.
  10. I see this project as an alternative to a lone-wolf mall owners rounding up and charging groups of lone-wolf artisans ("lone-wolf" meaning working in solitary). In contrast we will all own the infrastructure and we will all work in collaboration.
  11. After the completion of the city I'd like to focus on the creation of novel content as a group.
  12. The government should be responsible for finding new members, scheduling creative events, and moving the city in new directions to keep the experiment alive. Leaders should be elected based on where they would like to see the group go.
  13. Elected officials cannot be officers. The position of officer will be occupied by the philosophical or judicial branch of the government as a check to prevent corruption.

~Ulrika~
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
09-20-2004 16:13
Interesting. I'd like to address this points one by one.


From: someone
I would like a social democracy. Social democracies generally do not see a conflict between a capitalist market economy and the definition of a socialist society, and support reforming capitalism in an attempt to make it more equitable through the creation and maintenance of a welfare state.


-- I think a social democracy is a good starting point. though in keeping with the architecture I suggest a medieval model which eschews feudalism in favor of a social democracy.

To that end I suggest in keeping with a synergistic entity a formation of a government based on guilds of influence which would offer a check and balance system. To that end I propose a three pronged government composed of:

an Artist's Guild (with apprenticeship structures and a self imposed quality standard)

a Merchant's Guild (which sets standards of sales tax and further assesses percentages based on collaborative efforts)

and a Judiciary (which acts as a mediator as opposed to a legislative or punitive body)

From: someone
  • Given that avatars don't require health care, the income created through taxation will be returned to the citizens mainly in the form of payments for land investors and support for city services (church, government salaries, beautification of the city).


  • Hmmm. Perhaps the Judiciary could decide how these payments are distributed. This gets sticky as the body that controls the purse strings has too much power. Maybe it's best to have a system whereby the three Guilds would be able to come to a consesus? Thoughts on this?


    From: someone
  • I would like to see all wares for sale by artisans include at least two collaborators from within the city. For instance, my Fachwerk currently in Seefeld will be sold in Neualtenburg with the proceeds split between me (structure), Kendra Bancroft (textures and windows), Toy LaFollette (flowers), and the city (tax). I'd like to see all of us pitch in to enrich each other's products and then sell them in the city with a vendor which splits payments.


  • -- Two or more collaborators either coming together on their own, commisioned by another Guild (or private citizen), or assigned as a work of the Artist's Guild to be included for sale in the vendor system if judged of sufficient quality by the Artist's Guild.

    From: someone
  • To allow for the automatic splitting of payments and taxation, individual objects won't be for sale, rather a vendor will be used. The vendor will be a single standard design used throughout the city.


  • -- Merchant's Guild charged with the task of setting percentages? I'm attempting here to keep powers of the purse-string to an impartial source.
    If the Artist's Guild for example were to set it's own prices and percentages, Artists might quickly become the power element to the city. Likewise if the Merchant's Guild were to have say about what gets sold --they would have to much power. Disputes between Merchants and Artists could be settled by the Judiciary which functions in an administrative capacity soley.

    From: someone
  • I would like the government to settle all disputes between artisans.


  • see above.

    From: someone
  • I'd like for all participants to agree to ethical business practices and agree not to sell wares created in collaboration outside the city or to modify collaborative wares and sell them as their own. (Agree to RATE's membership requirements.)

  • I'd like all wares made in the city to be stamped with a logo to guarantee authenticity.
  • The goal is to replace standard single-player "ego" builds with collaboration on all levels.
  • I'd like a certain portion of taxes to be saved for the creation of a second spin-off city which follows the same ideals but with different officers and a different theme. If this is successful, I'd like to see it spread.


  • I like. Though a stamped logo might be easily counterfeited. Possible to include some manner of unmodifiable script element? Certificate of authenticity? Just shooting out ideas here.

    anyways my 2 cents here :)

    --Kendra
    Talen Morgan
    Amused
    Join date: 2 Apr 2004
    Posts: 3,097
    09-20-2004 16:19
    I don't think the government should solely be in charge of finding new residents. The residents themselves I believe will do a much better job of this if we do a good job with the government.

    If we show that this can be done and done well then the citizens themselves will be telling friends that this is the place to be.

    I think the the one thing we need to be wary of it too much government too fast.
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    Kendra Bancroft
    Rhine Maiden
    Join date: 17 Jun 2004
    Posts: 5,813
    09-20-2004 16:25
    From: someone
    Originally posted by Talen Morgan
    I don't think the government should solely be in charge of finding new residents. The residents themselves I believe will do a much better job of this if we do a good job with the government.

    If we show that this can be done and done well then the citizens themselves will be telling friends that this is the place to be.

    I think the the one thing we need to be wary of it too much government too fast.


    I took "government's responsabilty" here to mean part of the government's mission statement --not exclsive domain of the government --at any rate I agree with you, Talon.

    I think the goal here is NOT to set up a government that's a seprate entity so much as a way for the people to manifest their collective will.
    Ulrika Zugzwang
    Magnanimous in Victory
    Join date: 10 Jun 2004
    Posts: 6,382
    09-20-2004 21:39
    From: someone
    Originally posted by Kendra Bancroft
    I took "government's responsabilty" here to mean part of the government's mission statement --not exclsive domain of the government --at any rate I agree with you, Talon.

    I think the goal here is NOT to set up a government that's a seprate entity so much as a way for the people to manifest their collective will.

    Exactly, Kendra. :) I want government to truly be "public service". I want it to exist to facilitate and support the endeavors of the city rather than take sole ownership of a role. When I said:
    From: someone
    The government should be responsible for finding new members, scheduling creative events, and moving the city in new directions to keep the experiment alive. Leaders should be elected based on where they would like to see the group go.
    This is part of my concept that we should elect public servants based on what we think we need and where we'd like to go. Thus if we need more new members, a public official would make that their platform, be elected, and then receive a salary to go do that work. If they fail to achieve that goal, they won't be reelected.

    I say this because I often find myself in need of resources. For instance, while building my Fachwerk, I realized I didn't have any red flowers for the windows. By chance I ran into Toy LaFollette who gave me what I needed but wouldn't it be nice if there were a liaison that we could contact who would help find resources. The elected official could provide us with an office called "resource liaison" whose job is to do nothing but help find elements for city builds. This is just one example. We'll actually get to choose from many proposed services offered to us by our candidates when it's time.

    The goal is to get a service from our tax, a service that will make it easier for us to work as a group.

    As for going slow with government, I say we just go for it. We should elect public servants with short terms, perhaps 30 days at a time at first and terminate them immediately if they ever violate our trust.

    ~Ulrika~
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    Ulrika Zugzwang
    Magnanimous in Victory
    Join date: 10 Jun 2004
    Posts: 6,382
    09-21-2004 11:50
    From: someone
    Originally posted by Kendra Bancroft
    I think a social democracy is a good starting point. though in keeping with the architecture I suggest a medieval model which eschews feudalism in favor of a social democracy.

    To that end I suggest in keeping with a synergistic entity a formation of a government based on guilds of influence which would offer a check and balance system. To that end I propose a three pronged government composed of:

    an Artist's Guild (with apprenticeship structures and a self imposed quality standard)

    a Merchant's Guild (which sets standards of sales tax and further assesses percentages based on collaborative efforts)

    and a Judiciary (which acts as a mediator as opposed to a legislative or punitive body)
    I see what you're saying. I have ulterior motives for making the city a social democracy, though. The most important is that I feel it would provide an atmosphere of collaboration that would be codified in the constitution and government itself and paid for by the taxation of sales. I believe it would be vastly superior to the current system of powerful capitalists (mall owners) herding individual lone-wolf artisans into groups, which has a lot of similarities to feudalism.

    I like the idea of the city being both old and modern at the same time both in architecture and politics. Thus it might be interesting to take your concept of guilds and wrap them up in a modern social democracy. What do you think of that idea?


    If anyone else has any feelings on this subject, feel free to speak up, even if we're in complete disagreement. A team has to feel comfortable disagreeing with each other to really work well together. The best way to get comfortable is to just do it. :)

    ~Ulrika~
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    Ulrika Zugzwang
    Magnanimous in Victory
    Join date: 10 Jun 2004
    Posts: 6,382
    10-19-2004 14:56
    I wanted to give a quick status report for how things are moving along in the city by adding some comments to a previous post.

    From: Ulrika Zugzwang
    1. I would like a social democracy. Social democracies generally do not see a conflict between a capitalist market economy and the definition of a socialist society, and support reforming capitalism in an attempt to make it more equitable through the creation and maintenance of a welfare state.
    On Sunday the 17th of October 2004 during Oktoberfest our city collected $1595 from sales of the animated beer steins and chicken hats. This is a significant day for the city! We now officially have an economy. :cool:

    From: someone
    1. Given that avatars don't require health care, the income created through taxation will be returned to the citizens mainly in the form of payments for land investors and support for city services (church, government salaries, beautification of the city).
    In the near future we will need to find a way to equitably divide the city revenue to cover debts, land tier costs, and builder rewards. I imagine it will be a month or two before our economy grows large enough to justify a budget and disbursements. For those who have items they would like to sell, please contact me and we'll put them on display.

    From: someone
    1. I would like to see all wares for sale by artisans include at least two collaborators from within the city. For instance, my Fachwerk currently in Seefeld will be sold in Neualtenburg with the proceeds split between me (structure), Kendra Bancroft (textures and windows), Toy LaFollette (flowers), and the city (tax). I'd like to see all of us pitch in to enrich each other's products and then sell them in the city with a vendor which splits payments.
    So far the beer steins and chicken hat have been collaborative projects between me and Kendra. I did some building, animations, and scripting and she did building, and textures. If you have ideas for things you'd like to sell, contact us. We'll divide the project up and get it on the market within a week.

    I'd like to see Neualtenburg and snow-sim themed objects and vehicles from everyone. Even if you just come up with the idea, you'll receive a share of the revenue.

    From: someone
    1. To allow for the automatic splitting of payments and taxation, individual objects won't be for sale, rather a vendor will be used. The vendor will be a single standard design used throughout the city.
    The beta version of the vendor is complete and even has the ability to report sales to a central server. Once the server-side code is finished, citizens will be able to track what products are sold where and to whom. It will also provide for the complete transparency of all city revenue, so you know as much about our group assets as you do about your own. Future features will include the ability to update contents remotely, so you won't have to run around all over SL making changes. The services provided by the vendor and the server-side code are are free to citizens.

    From: someone
    1. I would like the government to settle all disputes between artisans.
    2. I'd like for all participants to agree to ethical business practices and agree not to sell wares created in collaboration outside the city or to modify collaborative wares and sell them as their own. (Agree to RATE's membership requirements.)
    Kendra has talked about creating an artisans guild. I imagine these issues will be handled there as they arise.

    From: someone
    1. I'd like all wares made in the city to be stamped with a logo to guarantee authenticity.
    We've created our first logo of authenticity. It's stamped on the bottom of some of the beer steins. As of yet there is not a standard logo but it's only a matter of time until our texture master, Kendra, creates one. :) Perhaps we'll have a different one for each type of product (what looks good on a mug might not look so good on a car).

    From: someone
    1. The goal is to replace standard single-player "ego" builds with collaboration on all levels.
    We are off to a good start but I'd like to see more people jump in wherever they feel most comfortable. We could always use more help building, making wares, defining the government, and coding. Given that we're more of a cooperative then a hierarchy, it's up to you to decide what, where, and when you want to do something.

    From: someone
    1. I'd like a certain portion of taxes to be saved for the creation of a second spin-off city which follows the same ideals but with different officers and a different theme. If this is successful, I'd like to see it spread.
    2. I see this project as an alternative to a lone-wolf mall owners rounding up and charging groups of lone-wolf artisans ("lone-wolf" meaning working in solitary). In contrast we will all own the infrastructure and we will all work in collaboration.
    3. After the completion of the city I'd like to focus on the creation of novel content as a group.
    4. The government should be responsible for finding new members, scheduling creative events, and moving the city in new directions to keep the experiment alive. Leaders should be elected based on where they would like to see the group go.
    5. Elected officials cannot be officers. The position of officer will be occupied by the philosophical or judicial branch of the government as a check to prevent corruption.
    Future goals! What would you like to see?

    I hope to have the build mostly complete by the end of November and hand over of the city to the democratically elected senate by the first of the year.

    ~Ulrika~
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    Catfart Grayson
    Registered User
    Join date: 16 May 2004
    Posts: 264
    10-24-2004 10:05
    I'm happy with the way things are progressing. The ideas and suggestions around the constitution and government sound good to me. Although I dont think its needed at the moment, you might want to take a look at Nomic, a game that can be used to develop rules laws and government structures. At first look it appears daunting, but is easy to 'play' (and fun). main link is here http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/nomic.htm. Goes nicely with a wiki to keep track of the game

    I've been trying to think of something that I could build and contribute. Finally found something, so I'm going to have a go at making a sleigh or two. Havnt got much further than looing at RL examples at the moment, I'll keep you all updated.
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    Ulrika Zugzwang
    Magnanimous in Victory
    Join date: 10 Jun 2004
    Posts: 6,382
    10-28-2004 13:20
    From: Catfart Grayson
    I'm happy with the way things are progressing. The ideas and suggestions around the constitution and government sound good to me. Although I dont think its needed at the moment, you might want to take a look at Nomic, a game that can be used to develop rules laws and government structures. At first look it appears daunting, but is easy to 'play' (and fun). main link is here http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/nomic.htm. Goes nicely with a wiki to keep track of the game

    I've been trying to think of something that I could build and contribute. Finally found something, so I'm going to have a go at making a sleigh or two. Havnt got much further than looing at RL examples at the moment, I'll keep you all updated.
    That sounds great! There should be some freely available vehicle scripts in the forum script library. If you haven't made a vehicle before, there is a pretty low prim limit on them. I can't recall the number off the top of my head, though.

    Feel free to ask Kendra for help with textures. She could probably make the sleigh blades from a single texture in a snap. :) I have also made a number of sitting animations for different types vehicles and I have code that can make sure someone who is sitting faces the right way. Let me know if you need some help. Once it's done, we'll not only put it to good use but put it up for sale as well.

    ~Ulrika~
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    Chandra Page
    Build! Code. Sleep?
    Join date: 7 Oct 2004
    Posts: 360
    10-29-2004 15:01
    From: Ulrika Zugzwang
    That sounds great! There should be some freely available vehicle scripts in the forum script library. If you haven't made a vehicle before, there is a pretty low prim limit on them. I can't recall the number off the top of my head, though.


    31, if I remember correctly. So try not to go bonkers making a photorealistic horsie to pull the sleigh. :)
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    11-14-2004 08:27
    From: Kendra Bancroft
    -- I think a social democracy is a good starting point. though in keeping with the architecture I suggest a medieval model which eschews feudalism in favor of a social democracy.

    To that end I suggest in keeping with a synergistic entity a formation of a government based on guilds of influence which would offer a check and balance system. To that end I propose a three pronged government composed of:

    an Artist's Guild (with apprenticeship structures and a self imposed quality standard)

    a Merchant's Guild (which sets standards of sales tax and further assesses percentages based on collaborative efforts)

    and a Judiciary (which acts as a mediator as opposed to a legislative or punitive body)


    Call me crazy but I like what we have in the US. Executive, Legislative and Judicial branches of government.

    Executive - An elected President who either approves or vetoes bills submitted buy the Legislature.

    Legislative - A Senate, which proposes and pass bills to go to the president on non-judicial issues.

    Judicial - A Supreme Court which settles disputes, creates laws etc...

    The guilds that you mention would be naturally influential groups and maybe a starting place for political parties.

    3 equal branches with a division of power. Sounds good to me. What do y'all think?
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    Ulrika Zugzwang
    Magnanimous in Victory
    Join date: 10 Jun 2004
    Posts: 6,382
    11-14-2004 11:59
    Yes Billy! The form of the government will be very similar to this, however with a twist.

    The government will have three branches, the Representative, Artisanal, and Philosophic branch (names and roles are subject to change). These are modifications of the U.S. system to improve existing deficiencies, to better suit SL, and to meet the needs of a Social Democracy.

    Overview of Branches
    1. Representative Branch (Land)
      1. Description
        1. A group of democratically elected representatives

      2. Responsibilities
        1. Exists only to serve the collective by
          1. facilitating communication between groups and citizens
          2. holding regular meetings

        2. growing the city in population and area
          1. recruiting and purchasing land

        3. increasing the amount of visitors to the city
          1. scheduling events

        4. improving the infrastructure
          1. prioritizing and scheduling building and code upgrades

        5. monitoring infrastructure
          1. monitoring prim usage and sim load
          2. creating laws


      3. Implementation
        1. Members must be land owners (incentive to contribute tiers)
        2. Members must belong to a faction
        3. Senate has as many seats as parties
        4. Elections are held every four months unless citizens call for two months


    1. Artisanal Branch (Goods)
      1. Description
        1. A union of artists who build and code for the city

      2. Responsibilities
        1. Events planning and support
        2. In charge of city vendors
        3. In charge of city money (treasury)

      3. Implementation
        1. Members must be actively producing for the city (incentive to produce)
        2. A hierarchy is formed based on productivity and seniority among themselves


    1. Philosophic Branch (Order)
      1. Description
        1. A leftist philosophic meritocracy

      2. Responsibilities
        1. Handles all disputes between citizens and other groups
        2. Interprets the constitution philosophically not literally or judicially
        3. Adds clarification and freedoms to the constitution
        4. Functions as a university
        5. Overturn laws that don't make scientific or philosophical sense (veto)
        6. Can pass laws that make scientific sense but won't pass (absolvo)

      3. Implementation
        1. Members must be a citizen
        2. Group size is variable
        3. Elects its own members based on merit without ratification (like a University)
        4. Members can be ejected by Representative and Artisanal branches if violation





    Discussion

    Each branch is designed to meet a single critical need of a city in SL. The Representative branch supports land, the Artisanal branch provides goods, and the Philosophical branch provides order.

    The Representative branch is designed to maintain all things which relate to land. It must increase the population and size of the city. It must monitor resource usage on existing land. It must make sure the city has sufficient land-tier donations. It schedules official events to increase dwell. It is these metrics by which success will be judged. Note that it is a requirement also, that members of this branch own land (this is controversial and might change). In short this is a land-focused legislative branch.

    The Artisanal branch is designed to create and sell goods. It is responsible for generating all income beyond dwell. It is responsible for building and maintaining the city infrastructure. It handles the vendors. It supports events. All members are required to be part of a collaborative effort to build items for the city. In short this is a goods-focused workers union.

    The Philosophic branch is designed to maintain order. It is responsible for interpreting and modifying the constitution. It settles disputes. Has veto and absolvo rights over laws passed by the senate (limitations to this are under discussion). In short this is an order-focused university.


    What's interesting and different from most governments, is that traditionally nonpolitical bodies (a union and university) have power within the government. Additionally, members of those groups are not elected democratically. Only the Representative branch has elected officials. Fascinating isn't it!?


    The Republic

    All branches and citizens exist within and for the Republic, in this case it is the SL group "Neualtenburg". All land and goods created under the Neualtenburg group remain property of the group. If a member or faction withdraws from the city they forfeit their right to all property created for the city and must hand over all goods.

    The city is not a true democracy, rather it is a social democratic republic. It combines elements of democracy, socialism, and meritocracy with the goal of maximizing benefit to the society while respecting individual rights and promoting complete equality.


    Citizen Rights

    Citizens will be limited to contributing up to 4096 m^2 and the maximum tier will later drop to 1024 m^2. All those who donate land tiers must give a week notice before leaving the group. Similarly, the city will give a week notice before ejecting members. All citizens may vote in elections and hold positions in one or more of the government branches provided requirements are met. Citizens may lease property from the city for dwelling space or hold events (handled by the Representative branch) or sell approved goods in the city (handled by the Artisanal branch). Unofficial free events do not require approval.

    ~Ulrika~
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    Kendra Bancroft
    Rhine Maiden
    Join date: 17 Jun 2004
    Posts: 5,813
    11-14-2004 13:38
    Sounds good except there seems to be a lack of power from which the Artisinal Branch is derived. Other than the power of wealth distribution ( in reality set by The City) and aesthetic look of the City, the current standing of the Artisinal Branch seems to be an indentured servitude of the workers and merchant class, subject to the whims of The Executive and Philosophical Branches. Explain to me where The Artisinal had a check and balance within this system.
    Ulrika Zugzwang
    Magnanimous in Victory
    Join date: 10 Jun 2004
    Posts: 6,382
    11-14-2004 14:52
    From: Kendra Bancroft
    Sounds good except there seems to be a lack of power from which the Artisinal Branch is derived. Other than the power of wealth distribution ( in reality set by The City) and aesthetic look of the City, the current standing of the Artisinal Branch seems to be an indentured servitude of the workers and merchant class, subject to the whims of The Executive and Philosophical Branches. Explain to me where The Artisinal had a check and balance within this system.
    Boy. I've been working on that for the past few hours. I have something but we'll have to discuss it to optimize it.

    First each branch has two roles, a service role and a governmental role. They are:
    1. Representative
      1. Service: schedule events, recruit members, monitor lands
      2. Government: act as legislators voting on city laws

    2. Artisanal
      1. Service: make goods for the city, handle vendors, maintain structures
      2. Government: act as treasury

    3. Philosophical
      1. Service: settle disputes, monitor events, enforce copyright
      2. Government: act as judiciary



    From the service perspective we are all indentured servants and must work together to meet Haney's challenge. From the government perspective we are all autonomous but require a method of checking the power of the other groups. Thus we need to define two relationships between each group, one collaborative and the other combative. The collaborative relationships are defined by service roles and the combative relationships are defined by our governmental roles.

    As an example, for collaborative roles, representatives work with artisans on event planning; representatives work with philosophers on event monitoring; and artisans and philosophers work together to monitor copyright.

    For combative roles, the Representative branch is able to pass laws which affect the other branches, the Artisanal branch can veto laws on fiscal concerns, and the Philosophical branch can veto laws on constitutional grounds.

    I've attached a picture for clarity.


    Note that this all assumes that these are the service and governmental roles we want each branch to take. Now is the perfect time to modify this if we'd like. We can change anything at this point. If anyone is unhappy with anything, toss it out now and we'll see what we can do.

    ~Ulrika~
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    Chik-chik-chika-ahh
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    11-14-2004 15:22
    Ok, I have some questions:

    1. Will there be no president?
    2. If the Representative branch is limited to land owners how is it representational of the citizens?
    3. How can the Artisanal and Philosophic branches be representational if not elected at all?
    4. Wouldn’t the roll of these groups be better served as committees like say the department of commerce which is headed by a Secretary of Commerce?
    5. Why is the government involved in anything but governing? I.E. passing laws, vetoing laws, settling disputes, forming and modifying the constitution, settling disputes etc… Why would it be involved directly in the running of the city?
    6. Who keeps the Philisophical branch in check?
    7. Doesn't the Philisophical branch have too much power if they get to veto the Representative branch too?

    Personally I have a hart time imagining a union and university running 2/3 of the government. It seems like it would be much cleaner with executive, judicial and legislative lawmaking bodies and leave the running of the city to several departments headed by a secretary.
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    Kendra Bancroft
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    Join date: 17 Jun 2004
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    11-14-2004 15:35
    From: Billy Grace
    Ok, I have some questions:

    1. Will there be no president?
    2. If the representative branch is limited to land owners how is it representational of the citizens?
    3. How can the artisanal and philosophic branches be representational if not elected at all?
    4. Wouldn’t the roll of these groups be better served as committees like say the department of commerce which is headed by a Secretary of Commerce?
    5. Why is the government involved in anything but governing? I.E. passing laws, vetoing laws, settling disputes, forming and modifying the constitution, settling disputes etc… Why would it be involved directly in the running of the city?

    Personally I have a hart time imagining a union and university running 2/3 of the government. It seems like it would be much cleaner with executive, judicial and legislative lawmaking bodies and leave the running of the city to several departments headed by a secretary.


    I'd have to strongly say no to a federalist republic as outlined above.
    a lost user
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    11-14-2004 15:38
    From: Kendra Bancroft
    I'd have to strongly say no to a federalist republic as outlined above.


    I am very cureous as to your reasons. Could you please give some insight.
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    Kendra Bancroft
    Rhine Maiden
    Join date: 17 Jun 2004
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    11-14-2004 16:06
    From: Billy Grace
    I am very cureous as to your reasons. Could you please give some insight.


    Very simple. Basing a cyber-city government with different problems, issues and decidely differnt population on the federalist republic model of a nation-state existing in the RW seems to me to be a non-reasoned knee jerk response and not an experiment --which is after all is said and done what the we are doing in the Neualtenburg Projekt.
    Ulrika Zugzwang
    Magnanimous in Victory
    Join date: 10 Jun 2004
    Posts: 6,382
    11-14-2004 16:10
    1. Will there be no president?

    The senate will be filled with members from each faction, with each faction receiving a number of seats proportional to the percentage vote. All factions will have at least one representative in the senate. Votes will be tallied in two ways, one seat gets one vote and one faction gets one vote (details to be determined). The president will simply be the head of the faction which receives the most votes. We'll probably call the position "Burgermeister" instead of "president" to keep with the theme of the city and to leave the title of president for the first multicity leader. We have plans to expand. :)


    2. If the representative branch is limited to land owners how is it representational of the citizens?

    It's representational in the sense that the citizens vote for factions to represent their point of view. The factions then pursue their agenda in lieu of the individuals. So requiring land ownership is still representational, but it's bad in that it does not provide all citizens with equal access to Representative-branch participation. Requiring land ownership is controversial and it might go away, yet it makes sense given that we want people who are invested in the city in those positions and the Representative branch is required to take care of land. Let's talk this one over!


    3. How can the artisanal and philosophic branches be representational if not elected at all?

    They are not representational at all! The Philosophic branch is a meritocracy and the Artisanal branch is a worker's collective. They exist to mitigate the detrimental side of unchecked democracy (philosophic branch) and to prevent exploitation of workers by capitalists (artisanal branch).


    4. Wouldn’t the roll of these groups be better served as committees like say the department of commerce which is headed by a Secretary of Commerce?

    Our government is a lot like the U.S.'s except the executive and legislative branches are combined (much like modern European parliaments) and a workers collective is given a direct role in the government. This is something completely different and meant to reflect the important role content creation plays in SL. Also, as I expand on below, I don't think we have enough people right now for more than three wee little branches.


    5. Why is the government involved in anything but governing? I.E. passing laws, vetoing laws, settling disputes, forming and modifying the constitution, settling disputes etc… Why would it be involved directly in the running of the city?

    Personally I have a hart time imagining a union and university running 2/3 of the government. It seems like it would be much cleaner with executive, judicial and legislative lawmaking bodies and leave the running of the city to several departments headed by a secretary.


    Good questions. A lot of it comes from the reality that we are a small group. We simply don't have the numbers to support the time costs of a complex governmental hierarchy. The bureaucracy would kill us. Instead what we need in SL is people to schedule events, people to create themed goods, and people to monitor the events so the Lindens don't have to. Thus each of those fundamental tasks is mapped to a branch of the government. It's a very applied government that's optimized for SL and based on public service (the way it should be).

    Finally, a lot of it also has to do with my personal political ideology. I feel a multipart representative senate is vastly superior to our executive branch. In the U.S. even though the popular vote was split fifty-fifty, a single party takes complete control of the executive branch. Further a two-party system disenfranchises those with marginal viewpoints reducing voter participation, homogenizing politics, and polarizing the populace. Thus I instituted a multiparty system without an executive branch.

    The philosophical branch functions like our judicial branch but with greater breadth. All tools of philosophy from law, to science, to logic can be applied to filter out unconstitutional, unscientific, and illogical laws. This can be useful for vetoing laws which while politically popular (as it helps people get elected) and publicly popular (it benefits individuals) is nonetheless detrimental to the society as a whole. In the U.S. there is virtually nothing that can stop this kind of legislation (irresponsible tax cuts are one example).

    Finally, the government is set up to be a social democracy and at the heart of every socialist movement is the worker. It seemed natural to me to elevate the artisan (which is currently the victim of great exploitation in SL) and give them direct power in the government. This is to prevent the government from turning into a corporation riding the backs of the artisans. I gave the artisans not only a say in the law but complete control of the city treasury to prevent wealth extraction!

    I'm telling you, if we get this working, it'll be someone's dissertation. :)

    ~Ulrika~
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    Chik-chik-chika-ahh
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    11-14-2004 18:24
    From: Kendra Bancroft
    Very simple. Basing a cyber-city government with different problems, issues and decidely differnt population on the federalist republic model of a nation-state existing in the RW seems to me to be a non-reasoned knee jerk response and not an experiment --which is after all is said and done what the we are doing in the Neualtenburg Projekt.


    I am unclear with how different issues have anything to do with what form of government is used. Please explain the “knee jerk” comment because I honestly do not understand it.

    I would contend that this will be much different from the RW system used in the US. It should be only used as a base to be modified to fit the unique needs of the community so I wouldn’t say that if used in that context it would be any less an experiment than something else. What we need is not necessarily something that is completely different but a government that works effectively and has the ability to attract interest from the rest of the SL community.

    Please know that in regard to this project I am only involved to help you succeed and am in fact on your side. Maybe it is just me Kendra but your posts seem to me to have the same tone that we have communicated on these forums in the past and I would like to put that behind us. Can we agree to work together here with regard to Neualtenburg? Please know that the questions I am asking is to have a better understanding of what y’all are doing here so I can help. If in fact it is only me then I apologize but I think it is better to confront issues instead of allowing them to fester

    Ulrika, ty for your detailed response. It has given me some things to think about and I will try to respond with some helpful suggestions.
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    11-14-2004 19:41
    From: Ulrika Zugzwang
    1. Will there be no president?

    The senate will be filled with members from each faction, with each faction receiving a number of seats proportional to the percentage vote. All factions will have at least one representative in the senate. Votes will be tallied in two ways, one seat gets one vote and one faction gets one vote (details to be determined). The president will simply be the head of the faction which receives the most votes. We'll probably call the position "Burgermeister" instead of "president" to keep with the theme of the city and to leave the title of president for the first multicity leader. We have plans to expand. :)


    Please explain what a faction is and how it is formed. Is that like a political party? What will the powers of the “Burgermeister” be.

    From: someone
    2. If the representative branch is limited to land owners how is it representational of the citizens?

    It's representational in the sense that the citizens vote for factions to represent their point of view. The factions then pursue their agenda in lieu of the individuals. So requiring land ownership is still representational, but it's bad in that it does not provide all citizens with equal access to Representative-branch participation. Requiring land ownership is controversial and it might go away, yet it makes sense given that we want people who are invested in the city in those positions and the Representative branch is required to take care of land. Let's talk this one over!


    Yes, we do want people who are invested in the city in those positions. A set of requirements to be a resident could take care of this.

    From: someone
    3. How can the artisanal and philosophic branches be representational if not elected at all?

    They are not representational at all! The Philosophic branch is a meritocracy and the Artisanal branch is a worker's collective. They exist to mitigate the detrimental side of unchecked democracy (philosophic branch) and to prevent exploitation of workers by capitalists (artisanal branch).


    Ok, without me googling it please explain what a meritocracy is. The Philisophical branch seems to me to have too much power in this format and the Artisanal not enough. I am not sure I understand how this prevents exploitation of workers either.

    From: someone
    4. Wouldn’t the roll of these groups be better served as committees like say the department of commerce which is headed by a Secretary of Commerce?

    Our government is a lot like the U.S.'s except the executive and legislative branches are combined (much like modern European parliaments)


    I agree with combining the legislative branches.
    From: someone
    and a workers collective is given a direct role in the government. This is something completely different and meant to reflect the important role content creation plays in SL. Also, as I expand on below, I don't think we have enough people right now for more than three wee little branches.


    How many people do we have involved in this anyway?

    From: someone
    5. Why is the government involved in anything but governing? I.E. passing laws, vetoing laws, settling disputes, forming and modifying the constitution, settling disputes etc… Why would it be involved directly in the running of the city?

    Personally I have a hart time imagining a union and university running 2/3 of the government. It seems like it would be much cleaner with executive, judicial and legislative lawmaking bodies and leave the running of the city to several departments headed by a secretary.


    Good questions. A lot of it comes from the reality that we are a small group. We simply don't have the numbers to support the time costs of a complex governmental hierarchy. The bureaucracy would kill us. Instead what we need in SL is people to schedule events, people to create themed goods, and people to monitor the events so the Lindens don't have to. Thus each of those fundamental tasks is mapped to a branch of the government. It's a very applied government that's optimized for SL and based on public service (the way it should be).


    Yes, that is a very good point and I agree with the duality of responsibilities you have proposed. This simplifies things for us at first but if this grown we may want to leave it open to compartmentalize responsibilities with specific groups when our numbers allow it.

    From: someone
    Finally, a lot of it also has to do with my personal political ideology. I feel a multipart representative senate is vastly superior to our executive branch. In the U.S. even though the popular vote was split fifty-fifty, a single party takes complete control of the executive branch.


    Well, the issue that will come with the senate not having an executive branch to keep it in check is that is will possibly have too much power. Yes, a single parties leader has allot of power but he is elected by a majority of the voting members of the community. Of course we could debate your 50% split but I see no need to go there… hehe

    From: someone
    Further a two-party system disenfranchises those with marginal viewpoints reducing voter participation, homogenizing politics, and polarizing the populace. Thus I instituted a multiparty system without an executive branch.


    Ok, that is nice to say but practically how would this work? Whoever is in the minority, and yes there will be someone in the minority, will be disenfranchised. Ultimately the largest party will have the power.

    How many parties do you envision and how will they be formed?

    From: someone
    The philosophical branch functions like our judicial branch but with greater breadth. All tools of philosophy from law, to science, to logic can be applied to filter out unconstitutional, unscientific, and illogical laws. This can be useful for vetoing laws which while politically popular (as it helps people get elected) and publicly popular (it benefits individuals) is nonetheless detrimental to the society as a whole. In the U.S. there is virtually nothing that can stop this kind of legislation (irresponsible tax cuts are one example).


    Who is to say whether something is logical or not? That is often subjective. I am not sure how you envision science playing a roll in this. Please expand on that.

    I do not follow your tax cut example either. Whose logic do you propose we use? The logic that tax cuts will generate more economic growth is certainly not illogical.

    From: someone
    Finally, the government is set up to be a social democracy and at the heart of every socialist movement is the worker. It seemed natural to me to elevate the artisan (which is currently the victim of great exploitation in SL) and give them direct power in the government. This is to prevent the government from turning into a corporation riding the backs of the artisans. I gave the artisans not only a say in the law but complete control of the city treasury to prevent wealth extraction!

    I'm telling you, if we get this working, it'll be someone's dissertation. :)

    ~Ulrika~


    Wealth extraction?

    I agree that the workers and artists need to be involved but will have to give it some thought as to the best way to do this. I look forward to hearing your answers to my questions and will give it more thought. Thanks.
    _____________________
    Ulrika Zugzwang
    Magnanimous in Victory
    Join date: 10 Jun 2004
    Posts: 6,382
    11-14-2004 22:15
    From: Billy Grace
    Please explain what a faction is and how it is formed. Is that like a political party? What will the powers of the “Burgermeister” be.
    A "faction" is synonymous to a "party" although in English it has a connotation of inherent contention that I like. One can call their group whatever they want, "faction", "party", "organization", etc. A faction or party should be a real group in SL with at least three members (like the Anarchists or the SDF) and must not be a political "affiliation" group but a dedicated political party. One can form their own or join an existing party. I'll start a faction thread in the forum later where we can all describe our factions and recruit members.

    From a service perspective the Burgermeister will get to lead the effort to increase the land-tier contributions, city size, and population as well as schedule events. From a government perspective they can pursue the creation of laws that match their supporters agenda. Additionally, as the majority faction leader, the Burgermeister will get to speak for and represent the city. What roles do you think we should assign the Burgermeister? Perhaps state-of-the-union addresses in the General topic forum or something along that line.

    From: someone
    Yes, we do want people who are invested in the city in those positions. A set of requirements to be a resident could take care of this.
    Yes. This is similar to the discussion of whether or not to allow RL and SL politics to mix. I believe we don't have to address it directly, rather by nature of the system it will take care of itself. For instance if the majority faction spends too much time talking about RL politics, it will fail in serving the city and not be reelected. Still, removing it would eliminate an incentive to have people contribute land. Right now, despite quite a bit of interest, we are tight on land.

    From: someone
    Ok, without me googling it please explain what a meritocracy is. The Philisophical branch seems to me to have too much power in this format and the Artisanal not enough. I am not sure I understand how this prevents exploitation of workers either.
    Meritocracy is a system of government based on rule by ability rather than by wealth, social position, or majority vote. It's almost unheard of in politics although it exists naturally in places like Universities and in scientific (not managerial) branches of technical companies. You can read about it on wikipedia.

    It's difficult to build in checks and balances into a system. When you think about the U.S. system, what power does the Judicial and Executive branch have over the Legislative branch? The Judicial can overturn a law as unconstitutional and the Executive branch can veto a law. Repeat that for all the combinations of branches and you'll see that the checks and balances are relatively simple and operate only within the realm of government that each branch has control over.

    I tried to do the same thing for our government. Each branch has power within it's own sphere of governmental influence. For instance the Artisanal branch can veto a law if it's fiscally unsound since they're in charge of the finances. The Philosophic branch can veto a law if it's unconstitutional or philosophically unsound. Plus, members of all branches are able to vote for representatives in the Representative branch. As for who has more or less power, it's difficult for me to say. I'm not sure. I'm also not sure that there are enough checks and balances. I thought I would err on the side of simplicity in the beginning. I'm open to suggestions too!

    From: someone
    How many people do we have involved in this anyway?
    We lost one and gained three so we're up to 35 members right now. However their productivity, like most charts of human productivity, follows a power law, where 10% of the people are responsible for 90% of the activity.

    From: someone
    Well, the issue that will come with the senate not having an executive branch to keep it in check is that is will possibly have too much power. Yes, a single parties leader has allot of power but he is elected by a majority of the voting members of the community. Of course we could debate your 50% split but I see no need to go there… hehe
    Usually in senates which are comprised of many factions there is no clear majority. Thus parties are required to form alliances by making compromises in order to pass laws. This in itself helps to regulate the senate internally. It's much different than a two-party system.

    From: someone
    Ok, that is nice to say but practically how would this work? Whoever is in the minority, and yes there will be someone in the minority, will be disenfranchised. Ultimately the largest party will have the power.
    This is why we will count the votes two ways. The first way to count the votes is "one seat, one vote". Thus factions with larger portions of the senate will have more say. The second way to count the votes is "one faction, one vote". By working together, several small factions can win this type of vote. In order to pass a law in the city it must pass both types of votes. (I'm particularly proud of this as it combines essentially what we do in the U.S. Senate and House into one group using creative voting.)

    From: someone
    How many parties do you envision and how will they be formed?
    One must simply create a real SL group which is a dedicated political party. There can be as many parties as we have citizens, although people will probably find it easier to let others do the representation for them and that they will be more likely to promote their agenda if they combine like-minded individuals into a single faction. I imagine we will have a lot of parties until things settle down to between three and six factions.

    From: someone
    Who is to say whether something is logical or not? That is often subjective. I am not sure how you envision science playing a roll in this. Please expand on that.

    I do not follow your tax cut example either. Whose logic do you propose we use? The logic that tax cuts will generate more economic growth is certainly not illogical.
    I'll give a couple of examples of how individual (selfish) choices can collectively be detrimental to a society. The classic example is people at a concert who initially are sitting, can see the stage, and are comfortable. As one person makes an individual (selfish) choice to stand, the people behind, who can no longer see, will make the same choice. Eventually, the entire stadium is standing. They all made natural choices but they are worse of as everyone has to stand throughout the entire concert.

    Another example of this behavior is tax cuts or increases passed by majority vote. In Colorado, a law was passed a few years ago giving citizens the ability to approve by vote increases in taxes to support education. Naturally, most people voted down (and continue to vote down) the tax increases year after year slowly starving schools. Schools responded by cutting music, gym, and extracurricular activities. This directly effected test scores, college admission rates, and the socioeconomic status of all children in the district. (You can read about recent controversies here, if you're interested.)

    Worse still are situations where politicians also reap short-term benefits from tax cuts. For instance, a politician will promise a tax cut (selfish to get elected) and citizens vote them in (selfish to get a refund) at the detriment of the society by driving it into debt.

    These are good examples of where democracy (mob rule) fails. People will often vote to maximize their short-term personal benefit even if in the long run they will eventually suffer. There should exist a branch which stops this kind of behavior by calling it out and vetoing the tax break for the benefit of the society. Needless to say this has to be a group which is not democratically elected! (I've been thinking about this for a while.) (I've heard democracy described as three wolves and a lamb voting on what's for dinner.)

    From: someone
    Wealth extraction?

    Yes! Parasitic wealth extraction. It's the act of removing capital from an economy without benefiting society. A perfect example is the land baron. They purchase large amounts of land and sell it at a markup without adding value to the land or providing a service to those who purchase it. They create a profit without contribution.

    The opposite of this are hard-working artisans who make clothing, scripts, animations, and objects and sell them for money. They contribute to society by enriching it with their goods.

    In between are mall owners. They perform a minimum of work building or purchasing infrastructure and charging artisans a weekly fee to sell their wares in a high-traffic area. From a transactional or capitalist standpoint this can be justified as good business, yet mall do great damage to sims and contribute very little to the society in general.

    The solution is to support individual artisans, to create cooperatives and shared infrastructure to eliminate the need for malls, and to legislate land barons out of existence (although the Lindens will have to do this). This is the goal of the Artisanal branch. :)


    Never thought you'd see a government with both an antidemocratic and anticapitalist stance backed by logical arguments did you? :) The goal is to reap all the benefits of a democracy, a meritocracy, and a worker cooperative, while avoiding their downside. So ideally, all of the checks and balances should exist to answer the question, "What do I do to mitigate the bad side of that type of government in that branch, while simultaneously preventing abuse in my own branch?" It's a beastie, isn't it!?

    ~Ulrika~
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    Chik-chik-chika-ahh
    Talen Morgan
    Amused
    Join date: 2 Apr 2004
    Posts: 3,097
    11-15-2004 11:45
    As I spoke before with Ulrika on a few parts of the constitution and she knows where I'm coming from I thought I would reiterate these concerns here.

    First and foremost I don't believe there should be a land requirement to run for the senate. Firstly that would leave a shallow pool of participants and secondly I think it creates a stuation where the wealthy have the power seemingly.

    The Philisophical branch is the heavy hitter and will hold a lot of power with the Absolvo/veto power. I think the core of this Arm of the government should be chosen and it should be a mix of all parties concerned . I don't believe the Philisophical arm should elect its own members...there has to be a check system here just for the mere fact that the philisophical branch could very easily hold the other two branches at bay if it so wished.

    I think that after the core members are chosen that any new member to the Philisophical branch should be nominated by said branch but be confirmed by the senate which will be representitive of all parties. I don't think anyone will have a problem with the absolvo/veto powers if they know that there will be a fair representation of all parties making these decisions.

    I think by adding these checks will create a balance that will make it hard for any one party to run rampant in any of the 3 houses.
    Satchmo Prototype
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    Join date: 26 Aug 2004
    Posts: 1,323
    Dissertation
    11-15-2004 13:06
    From: Ulrika Zugzwang
    1. Will there be no president?

    I'm telling you, if we get this working, it'll be someone's dissertation. :)

    ~Ulrika~


    I was starting to wonder if this was your dissertation. It's fantastically planned out.
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