So you thought the witch hunt was over?

Actually I started the channel back in October 2003.

I'm sure other people used it before that, but it didn't get more than 10 people at a time until mid December.

*sighs* I don't feel that I need an announcement. Let me try to clarify here.

1) Pathfinder's actions were wrong.
a. Because he chose to discuss a user with a group of other users
b. Because he hinted that action was going to be taken
c. Because he did it in a place that forum users weren't going to necessarily notice it was happening, except those that he wanted there or that wanted to be there (i.e. IRC)

For the record: I didn't want an announcement. You asked why I found the actions wrong, I was explaining. Please don't make this about me. It's really not. As a customer of Linden Labs, I'm expressing that I find the actions of one of their employees suspect. I am not saying that I oh so wanted to be a part of the group that was discussing Prok in there. I am not saying I wanted an announcement. I am saying that it's obvious by where and how he did it that Pathfinder was aware that his actions were not on the up and up.

The current incarnation, then. There were a few times before 1.2 which I joined looking to see if anyone was there, but no one was.

I wouldn't expect to be able to say to one banker, "yeah, you know so-and so at your branch keeps calling me being crazy and we're about to do something, but hey, you didn't hear that from me, keep it under your hat" and not have my company find my actions unprofessional.

Ingrid. I did NOT want to lambast Pathfinder. NOTHING - I repeat - NOTHING in my original thread was designed to lambast Pathfinder. I think Pathfinder is wonderful. Human, and not always right about everything, but a really good guy.

I, too, am a really good guy and don't deserve this crap either. That's just the way the cookie crumbles. He suffers, I suffer. And why? Because certain players are determined that they can't manage to go through life without making sure they don't ever hear another player. (And that none of us ever hear that player.)

Read my original post. Read the title of this thread. Understand that what I object to - have ALWAYS OBJECTED TO - is the lynch mob behavior of certain people determined to get rid of a player. Once he's gone, who will be next?

As so OFTEN happens on these forums, people take something a person has said, and, since they don't like it, they reframe it to be about something entirely different.

I did NOT lambast Pathfinder. I wish to HELL some other person had been in that conversation besides him. It is not his fault nor my fault that this lynch mob thing is STILL GOING ON - and THAT IS MY POINT.

If I say mustard, people can say all they want that I said ketchup. Those who insist on believing that - well, I give up; you can't get through to them.

Those who understand that I said "mustard," and know what "mustard" means - I guess those are the ones I intended to hear my post in the first place.

Perhaps I should clarify then. #Secondlife on the IRC network may not have been started by Linden Labs or owned by Linden Labs, but LL has done little to counter or clarify their relationship with the channel. There is nearly always a Linden representative there, and in many cases is known to be the place to be for up-to-date information on rapidly developing issues such as grid failures. Based on my own experience, the first place I head when encountering a system problem is to #secondlife to see what the scoop is.

To anyone who is not a person who knows the full history of the channel would have no indication from visiting that it was anything but a Linden-supported irc channel. If this is not the case, then so be it - but the Lindens do little to nothing to stop that impression. At the very least, it poses a large conflict of interest to have representatives of Linden Labs discusssing LindenLabs business matters in a social setting.


In either case, I stand by my opinion - if LindenLabs are going to have any type of presence in IRC in any type of capacity (official or non-official), then doing so in a cyber-cracker's playground is not a wise move from many different angles. If this thread itself isn't proof a-plenty why LLabs needs to have their own irc.secondlife.com server, then maybe they should consider leaving #secondlife to the user base where it originated, and not muddy the waters like they do.


- Newfie

Plenty has been done -- you just haven't read it. Besides, nothing *needs* to be done to clarify whether LL runs #secondlife on efnet. That's like implying that Microsoft needs to clarify whether they run the world wide web because you use Internet Explorer to access it.

Oops..sorry for overlooking that one Pen. Hmm..let's see. Were those residents invited there by Pathfinder, acting in the office of an LL employee, specifically to discuss Prok or abuse reports in the forums? Possibly. But it seems more like they were just all hanging out in IRC chat chatting. I could be wrong though.

If it was an official followup on abuse reports, why the hell don't I get treatment like that??? I've never gotten a single word back other than a form letter when filing an abuse report.

Why, if it was official LL business, was it done in IRC instead of using an LL-owned medium, such as the forums or in=world?

And yes, groups do talk all the time and complain about certain residents, problems, or even how Ll run things. But as far as I know, LL employess don't make a habit of talking, and expressing, or hinting at opinions about disciplinary actions against one particular resident, to other reesidents that have displayed a strong negative (deserved or undeserved) opinion against that resident.

Maybe it happens all the time. I dunno. I've never seen it though, but I still don't get invited to the FIC meetings, so I'm often out of the loop.

And finally, I'm right and your wrong!!! Neener neener! Now come pounce on my in-world and tickle me till I take that back?

How absurd is is this discipline. Why impose a sanction and be unwilling to enforce it effectively. I understand that LL cannot assume posts originating from the same IP, or even the same credit card account number, are made by the same member... but sometimes the evidence is clear.

*smiles* Thanks Flip! I know that my post might have sounded like I'm upset that I didn't know an IRC existed. I did. I didn't know how to get there, but that's okay b/c I didn't really care to. I just was saying that the arena chosen makes it seem like Path knew it was an unprofessional action that he was taking.

Without going into what I have or haven't read (as you'd have to be looking over my shoulder to know that )...please provide a few examples of where this has occurred. If LindenLabs has been active in dispelling this image, I'd sure like to see it. I'll be happy to change my viewpoint if I can see proof that it needs changing.




Microsoft has clearly-defined processes and policies regarding where, when and what Microsoft employees can do or say in their role as Microsoft representatives. Talking about internal day-to-day business matters in a public setting would constitute anything from a reprimand to a swift kick out the door.

That's where this is occuring - a user-owned channel being used as a quasi-official communications channel by representatives of LL. If LL feels the need to use IRC (any IRC) as a communications channel, then they need to do it in a responsible and professional manner. Socializing in a user-owned, easily-hacked/spoofed forum is naive at best, irresponsible and conflict of interest at worst.

I honestly think #secondlife is a good channel, and brings together many of the best faces of SL - but as the phrase goes...never mix business with pleasure.


- Newfie

"Prokofy became more than a typical citizen. He became an issue to be discussed by the community, and made himself into a figurehead."

I agree. I was thinking after I went to bed last night that he was something of a celebrity, and thus kind of immune to criticism. My point is not whether or not he should be criticized by the community. My point is that no one should group together with the force of numbers to demand a poster not be allowed to post, celebrity or no, and that he be banned from posting.

“I find it admirable that he was willing to listen to what the majority of forum users have to say”

No. No. And a THOUSAND TIMES no. You do not know that that is the “majority of forum users” and that is one of the main problems here.

What that was apparently was people who access a chat room via SLUniverse.

How about those who feel like I do?

Who don’t want an orchestrated campaign to have a poster banned? Who despise witch hunts and lynch mobs? Who hate concerted action against ANY ONE of us, no matter how problematic?

Maybe we are in the minority, but there is no way to know that. It could just as well be that most people who feel the same way I do about witch hunt behavior wouldn’t DREAM of saying so out loud in these forums, for fear they will find themselves called names and put on ignore by those who disagree with them.

Robin Linden already clarified that if an alt coms on when a main is banned, they aren't automatically banned, too. Only if their behaviour is objectionable and they violate the TOS.

Just got a note from Prok from his desert fastness where he is spending his time in exile as a new Ansheland owner in Ak'sha Oasis. Fabulous territory out there! SO much you can do! Prok says he got the following in the last 2 days:

-- 3 people either joined brand-new or made alts and made him the recipient of their recommendation bonus.
-- More people put tier in the groups
-- Various unknown people came to posrate him while offline
-- 3 people separately sent him the IRC chat log; 4 continue to write to him that he continues to be a subject of the IRC channel
-- All sorts of friends and even enemies IM and alert to new posts on the forums of relevance

Prok is getting a *little tired* of eating dates and is getting a *little* thirsty out in the desert heat but Jim Lumiere has just made a new lemonade and ice cream stand that will be delivered soon LOL.

Wow, I just came over from SLuniverse, where somebody has posted an interesting chatlog.

It appears that Pathfinder was 100% right in what he said, and has done a great community service.

Go check it out Everything that Pathfinder warned about in IRC has been confirmed.

I'd just like to say that, the thread that *I* read contained no personal information about Prokofy at all. Pathfinder DID discuss Prok with some other residents - and, even if I disagree with that, I don't think it means we should be screaming for his head on a platter, or expecting him to be fired.

So far, Pathfinder has shown exactly one thing: he's human. We all make mistakes, but one thing I DO admire about Pathfinder is that when he's made one, and he sees it, he admits to it, apologizes, and learns from it. At least, that's what *I* see about him. But were ANY OF US completely UNAWARE that Prok skirts the TOS/CS, OR that he incites others to actually cross that line, OR that it's sometimes exceedingly difficult if not impossible to have a conversation with him? Because, as far as I can tell, that's ALL that was observed by "LLPATH" in IRC.

Do I want to know that a Linden Lab employee would have those things to say about me? No... I don't - I admit that. But, if my behavior was observed to be that way, I wouldn't be completely surprised to know that the VERY HUMAN employees of LL had formed an opinion about it. And that's my L$2 about the "Pathfinder Incident in IRC."

As to a witch hunt? I like to think that Robin, Jeska AND Pathfinder have more sense than to JUST moderate a player for number of reports... and that they actually you know, READ the posts in question and make decisions based on what's read. Again, just my L$2.

No. As the poster of the original thread, I get to decide what I am going to write about, not you - not anybody else on here who has decided to misinterpret what I said and what my intentions were.

My intentions were:

I thought the shunning was the peak of the concerted efforts to drive one poster away.

I found out it was still going on.

I titled this thread, "So you thought the witch hunt was over?"

The thread is not based on this chat log. The thread is based on the LYNCH MOB. That is what I have always been against, and I see it is still going on, only more underhandedly.

THAT is my point. THAT is why I started this thread. THAT is what I SAID and what I SAY, despite the many other motivations that I have read being attributed to me so far.

The lynch mob is the dangerous thing. It is what I don't want going on. I don't want people trying to get rid of Prok. Or anyone else, unless they are totally worthless disrupters, you know the kind, and Prok isn't.

I have a RIGHT TO READ and DISCUSS the topics Prok brings up.

The fact that people are going to great lengths to stifle him and any of his discussions should be of great concern to all of us.

You do have a right to read and discuss the topics Prok brings up, unless he violates the forum rules and the TOS, in which case he's suspended from the forums.

I'm not sure what you mean by "great lengths", considering the only recourse any of us have is to report a post that appears to be in violation of the TOS.

Its 100% up to the moderators of this forum to decide who stays and who goes - not the lynch mob, not me, not you. The mods.

Clearly this thread is off-topic, no longer productive, and not doing any service to the Second Life community at large. My apologies for not getting here sooner

Yes, that was me in the IRC channel.

My comments were not appropriate as a LL employee, and I have been duly warned about this. It is never appropriate for a LL employee to talk about another Resident like that, and I fully understand my mistake and take full responsibility for it.

I want to publically apologize to Prokofy, to LL, and to all the Residents for my improper behavior. I assure you it will never happen again. I know actions speak louder than words, so I hope to prove my sincereness about this from now on in how I conduct myself both here, in SL itself, and on any 3rd party sites.

I have no excuses for my behavior, and will not try to justify my actions in any way. I just hope people believe me when I say that my true desire is to try and keep people focused on positive discussions in the forums and to prevent people from attacking each other. There is so much potential for positively shaping the evolution of SL here, and it saddens me beyond words when I see that rare opportunity wasted.

Please be good to each other.