So you thought the witch hunt was over?

My forum warning was public. As a matter of fact the severity of my punishment was discussed retrospectively by a Linden, Prokofy, and others.

I have seen other warnings and threats of specific discipline discussed in public as well.

1. Where Pathfinder ever divulged anything that could not be personal opinion formulated by reading Prok's threads.

2. How Pathfinder said something that could not be considered personal opinion.

In my opinion, from reading the IRC log, there was no personal or secret account information given, merely observations that could be made from reading posts.

Also, since when are Lindens not allowed to have opinions about people?

The only reason this is coming up is because the posting of the log (which linking too is questionable, and passing around Notecards is against TOS since SL TOS requires you to get permission from the party before doing such things) coincided with a suspension.

Linden Lab is also a private company and has proved before it does not need to provide explination or warrant any reason to ban an account.

If anyone is banned souly because LL does not like them, while it may not be "good business", they are by law fully allowed to do so. I'm not saying thats what happened here, I do not know, but, if they wanted to, they can.

I think the whole thing is rather childish, since we're basicly arguing over if its wrong or not to have opinions and to talk about those opinions with other people. GASP! Once again this issue comes about, and its silly.

People express their opinion about other people on this forum all the time, and if any of the involved parties are suddenly suspended, it's usualy not labled because of a Lindens opinion about that person.

I don't really get what exactly the issue is here anyway, someone want to point it out to me in big bold letters? I'd much appreciate it.

When that client makes insinuations comparing your company to Stalinist Russia, and a part of the company to the KGB, as well as driving a BIG ASS stake through the heart of the community that you conceived and toiled to create, how would you feel Cat?

How would you react?

Yes, I've just been thinking about that as well Nolan. This kind of shows a pattern in Pathfinder discussing discipline matters publicly, rather than it being a one-off. This goes against everything that Linden Lab have always said with regards to privacy and discipline. Maybe it's time for yet another clarification from them?

Either Pathfinder sticks to his and Linden Lab's own rules or he doesn't. If he doesn't, then how can he possibly stay in his position.

Moopf.. sorry, maybe I am missing something here, but...

How do stating what everyone know (that Prok cannot be removed because Prok did not break the TOS) and asking people to avoid getting into trouble is "discussing discipline matters publicly"?

It is not a good idea to start a lynch mob directed at someone's job.

Pathfinder singled out and discussed a customer with other customers in what was basically an attack, personal opinion or not. It's not actually something he would be able to get away with posting on this forum, which he knew full well. And, as has already been quoted, he wanted it kept secret as he knew he shouldn't be discussing it at all. He is a representative of LL and, presuming it is him as people now seem to be questioning this, was logged on under LLPath, clearly acting under his Linden Lab status and not any other status which involved in that discussion.

Pathfinder is also currently the most visible of the forum moderators, policing the forums. He picks up, closes and deletes threads which are largely personal attacks, yet here he is making a personal attack of his own and discussing things about a customer which he should not, be those words opinion or fact.

Either Pathfinder sticks to his and Linden Lab's own rules or he doesn't. If he doesn't, then how can he possibly stay in his position.

Moopf.. sorry, maybe I am missing something here, but...

How do stating what everyone know (that Prok cannot be removed because Prok did not break the TOS) and asking people to avoid getting into trouble is "discussing discipline matters publicly"?

<LLPATH>k, about Prok
<LLPATH>we're all on the same page here, yes?
<LLPATH>k
<LLPATH>here's the deal
<LLPATH>Prok never "technically" violates the Community Standards
<LLPATH>but
<LLPATH>Prok skirts them....and ultimately ends up inciting other Residents to "break" the CS (implicates Prokofy as the cause of other people's violations)
<LLPATH>k
<LLPATH>Shadow, we are working on a similar rule
<LLPATH>but....we are faced with the need to allow the MOST freedom possible
<LLPATH>so, until we work out an official policy, the general rule is...don't let Prok's posts incite you to do something stupid (highlights an individual)
<LLPATH>but....you didn't hear that from me (say no more) (makes it clear he shouldn't be saying this)
<LLPATH>Cienne, precisely
<LLPATH>Shadow, good idea...but you know....any change in "policy" at LL involves many people.....
<LLPATH>don't think I have not suggested that (in response to saying why don't you ban Prokofy and his alts - discussing discipline)
<LLPATH>the ONLY FRIGGIN THING I care about...is keeping the forums as supportive and constructive as possible for EVERYONE
<LLPATH>so.....let your imagination run with that one
<LLPATH>and you'll know what I've suggested
<LLPATH>Enabran, you are making an assumption
<LLPATH>you are assuming...that you can have a logical discussion with someone
<LLPATH>namely, Prok)
<LLPATH>and Enabran, you won't win that battle...to be blunt (this and previous lines are a personal attack)
<LLPATH>the consequences of Prok's posts....I agree with you.....but Prok's original posts are always on the edge of the CS and TOS.
can you see my dilemma? (again discusses discipline - don't forget LL have always said that they will not discuss whether an action has or has not lead to suspension, yet here Pathfinder is)

From the looks of the log, it doesnt matter.

I am pretty certain that you are aware that the policy of LindenLab is to avoid banning you unless actually break the TOS in some manner. That was all that Pathfinder stated. No rule have been broken, no secrets have been shared.

I do not see a problem in this situation.

But I don't get how he disclosed anything that can't be formed from reading Prok's threads?

IRC is not the forums and thereby isn't held in the same rules as the forums. If Prok wants to go on IRC and point out people who are part of a conspiracy, no one would stop him.

I don't get why its bad for people within a company to express opinions?

I'd much rather have an opinionated company thats open to speaking its mind than some faceless drone working behind the scenes, yes even if the opinion was against me.

Think of it as, a Microsoft employee going home and talking with some friends, the Microsoft employee then says how much he hates working with Company X, based on choices that Company X has made publicly. Then what he says is taken to Company X and says how Microsoft is treating them badly because employee said this bad stuff about him.

Is it bad to discuss personal company information? Yes. Is it bad for an employee of a company to express their opinion about a customer? I don't think so.

I don't believe Pathfinder did the first.

The whole of Pathfinder's conversation is about discipline. Here, I've picked out Pathfinder's words for you:

[snipped]

Sorry Moopf... but I am still not convinced. Again, its all entirely details everyone allready knows, including some tid bits of personal opinion of which Pathfinder (as a verified member of the human race, last I checked) has the right to hold, as long as they do not affect the discipline process - and indeed, they havent.

Nothing of what you highlighted on that chatlog cannot be deducted or understood by simply observing the evolution of the TOS (new issues becoming part of the TOS as the need arises), Linden moderation reaction in the past and present, or by just thinking over what would you do if you would be in their shoes.

Pathfinder stated that they have a Dilemma, and that they were trying to find a solution - which many of us allready assumed that will probebly include discussions (note that no one said anything about actually going ahead and doing it yet) for changing TOS.

In my opinion, you are jumping the gun. Nothing wrong have been done here, and no secret has been exposed.

EDIT: so sluniverse members how often do the lindens come and chat with you folks? .
Cat

Enabran it's not about Prok. In fact, it has nothing to do with Prokofy.

It has to do with the fact that forum mods have let these forums moderate themselves and only now that the problem has reached a critical mass are they bothering to do anything about it, and they are doing a very bad job of it.

Being an SLU member, I can honestly say never

See.. NOW this is a witchhunt...