Buying and Selling Land

You "skirted" the seven-day rule on quite a bit of land.

LL graced you with the ability to actually claim that land, not hit your credit card with a 10% total cost restocking fee, and put the land back up on auction -- leaving you with a penalty to your credit card and none of that land to resell.

I have been charged 3 digit US$ extra fee.

lynn,
the auction and inworld land sale rules are applied to ALL players. the 7day rule is not a bonus for just specualtors. i defend the seven day rule, as schwanson, as a member of the community. the 7 day rule allows people to purchase land and get rid of old land without enabling a land baron. the 7day rules makes the auctions MORE accessible to ALL players. (i think i just paraphrased schwanson)

note:
i make very little money selling land off the auctions. i make less modest income helping people move (ie - buying up thier old land). my largest profits are finding land people have dumped on the land market way below market value.


eltee,
please don't make asusmptions of my practices to make your shallow points. i personally i collect my land within hours of winning the auction. today might be the first time i miss the 24 hours, and not because i don't have free tier because i do. i just don't think i'll be at my SL ready desktop to make it in the timeframe the anti land speculator clan allows. but i am paying the tier regardless of if it's empty or if land sits in it.

But you also skirted a 3-sim monthly tier charge for that land as well. Correct? The only "fee" you paid was the 10% penalty -- meaning -- you didn't pay tier fees that you would have paid if you had picked up the land.

Land won at auction is not owned land until you claim it. You can not build on it. You can not terraform it. It is not yours, it is reserved for you.

This is even across the board, it works the same for everybody. The people you will be hurting are NOT the barons. You basically will be granting them more exclusivity to the auctions. If the intent here is to remove more end users from the pool of auction participants, then continue on.

Let me give a hypothetical:
Joe Newbie wants to move from his current home because a new club has sprung up next door. Joe does not have alot of RL money to spend on SL. His current tier is $25 per month, he is maxed. So joe finds a neat parcel in the auctions, same size as his current plot. If your system is implemented what would Joe do?

A) Sell his current home just IN CASE he wins the auction.
B) Pay double tier for a month.
C) Bah, forget about it, auctions are for barons silly.

Now we can also compound poor Joe's dilema, the auction closes on Tuesday, but Joe goes in to have those genital warts burned off on tuesday afternoon, poor Joe will be laid up until at least thursday. "oh well" Joe thinks to himself "auctions are just for barons".

Lets all bow our heads in a moment of silence, for Joe.

I am not talking about 10% penalty. Whatever leeway I received in term of land claim speed has been covered by extra charge. If you still don't understand, please talk to me in world and I can explain to you. In any case, I think there is more worthwhile things to discuss on a forum like this.

Sorry, I have to respond to this as well. Anshe, at the time Linden Lab was contacted about your land floating, there was more 160,000m of land past the 7 day mark, plus another 100,000m at the 7 day mark that were all unclaimed and for sale to one A. Chung. The sad part is this was only across five sims. This included the entire sim of Vail. To publicly lie and say that it was less than half a region is a joke. The documentation of the amount of land, plot by plot, date won and date still unclaimed certainly got Linden Lab's attention enough to act. I am glad that you ultimately did pay them. However, just because you were caught and ended up paying does not mean you did not try to skirt the tier fees, no more so than if you try to kill someone and don't succeed, you are still guilty of attempted murder. For your sake, we will refer to it as attempted skirting, since in the end, it did not work.

Have a lovely day.

Why not then extend the 7 day grace period to land purchase in world as well? Fine, don't limit the auctions, level the field. Give everyone an opportunity to buy land and comfortably unload land after the fact if they need to before tiering up.

Also, I agree with Jauani in that for the vast majority of people in the land speculation business, Jauani included, there has been very little issue with their actions, other than maybe on some philosophical levels of what is adding value. The overly aggressive, predatory actions of one player has brought negativity to the entire land speculation field, and it is important to speak of the indiviudal's practices, not the collective whole. I have found Jauani to always be honest, thought provoking, and fair, evne when at odds with me. The same can be said for the MIA Billy Grace, Schwanson, Lisse, and others. It is important to be careful not to unduly impose restrictions to curtail the bad behavior of one player that negatively impacts everyone.

I agree with this. In both cases one is buying land. Anyone doing this should be prepared to pay any associated tier fees immediately. Inworld, if one attempts to purchase land that would put them over thier tier, they are prompted to accept a tire change. It should be the same with auctions.

I haven't bid on land in a long time, but when one places a bid on a parcel that would put them over their tier, they should have to agree to a new tier that would accommodate the parcel they are bidding on. The tier would only be applied if they win the bid. The Lindens or US Dollars used to bid with should be charged immediately and the new tier should go into effect immediately. Ideally, the land should be available immediately as well.

Would be nice. Question is if this could be exploited to have land indefinitely in pending status. I could imagine some scenario two accounts could play ping-pong, continuously buying land off each other and leaving it in pending status indefinitely. To prevent this, land would really have to be unusable during pending status. This means no building on it and access blocked.

Great info Cris, just curious as to how you obtained it?

By flying around the snow land for over an hour checking out plots against the closed auctions, and documenting the unclaimed ones. It was a long process, and even I was suprised in the end by the sheer amount of land we were talking about. While this was going on, a second full sim expired as well (Swain) but was still left to be claimed by her as well. If it were a few plots here or there, it would hardly have made a compelling case - the fact that it was so much land, backed by undisputeable documentation, is what got the attention. At the time this was going on, LL was contacted privately instead of taking it to the forums until it had been resolved. That is why Anshe made the reference to settling it privately before it became an issue in the forums. I was not aware she had paid any penalties, as Linden Lab obviously maintains confidentiality to whatever actions they take, other that to comment on the general enforcement changes that were made. Anshe posting about her paying them was the first time I knew for certain she had to pay the fees.

J and S --

I understand what you are saying -- the seven-day grace period is allowing someone to sell their existing land before claiming the land in an auction, and not having to sell the land to a land baron with tier availability.

But that argument is also invalid.

What if Newbie A with 1024 existing land wants land in XYZ sim and it's for sale inworld?

Would you, as the land reseller -- literally save that piece of prime real estate to Joe Newbie for seven days or longer, keeping it on your tier, on your monthly charge, and quite possibly tiering up because you have to cover the seven-day grace period that you gave to Joe Newbie while covering your recently won auction land?

You wouldn't -- because you have absolutely no guarantee that Joe Newbie will come back in seven days and claim that land.

You have no contractural agreements within SL for the "downpayment" received on that land.

And while it might be wonderful of you if you would hold it for seven additional days so Joe Newbie can sell his existing land -- you probably would tell Joe Newbie, "I'm sorry, but I have to let this land go to another purchaser, because I don't want to incur another monthly tier increase. Nothing personal, it's business."

So Joe Newbie would have two choices -- purchase the land immediately from you and tier up himself (which he probably would do if he really wanted the land), or he would look for other land.

It's not a solid policy and system that certain land can have a seven-day grace period without affecting tier fees.

Land is land is land is land.

Pick up public land -- you tier up immediately.
Hold a friend's land for 3 minutes while they reorganize land elsewhere -- you tier up immediately.
Purchase land from a land reseller -- you tier up immediately.

Purchase land directly from LL (auction) and you have seven days grace period.

Sorry, but the tier fees should be immediate, no one, especially with land being such an asset within SL should not tier up immediately. Especially those who are reselling it in-world to others who have to tier up when they purchase it.

Cool, thanks for the explaination, its great that someone takes the time to make sure that stuff like this isn't being overlooked.

Seriously, what would this player do?

I make tier arrangements and loans all the time, part of the value added service.

Well I can't take the full credit for it - it was brought to my attention by someone else, who helped in the documentation of it, I just put it all into words and pursued it (along with lingering in one place so much in the snow land that I am sure I gave someone nice dwell). In the end it was not about targetting Anshe, I would have done the same if I knew anyone was doing it, honestly. I admit to having strong animosity about Anshe's business practices (while not having anything against Anshe as a person), but instead of just lamenting about them in the forums and going back and forth in this endless game of verbal one-upmanship, it was more important to take action in this case. Jauani often makes snide remarks about crusaders, but in the end it is about caring about Second Life and its continued growth, which can only occur if we do what we can to stop corruption. If it were all much ado about nothing, no changes would have occured.

Schwanson -- that's *you* and how you conduct your business.

But that's now how some business is conducted in world.

And what if Joe Newbie wanted the land that was for sale by another realtor?

What do the existing players do now with their existing land who find a nice parcel in the auctions, win it, and don't know about the land resell business and/or don't want to deal with a reseller?

They tier, if they really want that land. We all do -- we all have done it. From trying to protect an existing build with land that has gone public to finding out that your neighbor with the green rotating newbie cabin has decided to move to a new sim -- we purchase the land and we pay the tier fees. Why? Because land is an asset worth paying a lot of $$$ for in SL.

Same difference as what you are saying above -- just a different scenario.

lynn,
perhaps we have overlooked explaining one of the key services we privide - help players move. i will liquidate a player of thier land to help them move. if they are buying land from me, i will not make money off of them twice. i will buy thier land at what i think will sell within days and put it up for that same price. if they are not buying land from me, i will give them the price i would bid on the auctions for immediate liquidation.

this is why for the last few pages, i haven't been able to understand the bemoaning of tiering up when there are so many trustworthy "land barons" around who would help you out for half an hour or even a week! for a lot lot less than 70 USD. for 70 USD i would hold a quarter sim for you for the entire month. 5 dollars cheaper than LL!

Perhaps I am missing the advantages to the community that this would bring.
This is a "tax" break afforded to anyone using the auction system. It is a way in which people can buy land w/o having to tier up until they are able to claim it, a solution. Eliminating this can truly turn alot of people off from ever buying land at the auctions, especially a newer player. People can actually plan a move without the use of a reseller. The only potential advantage I see is reducing potential costs for land resellers, who WILL pass those costs along to the end user.
Doing this would definately raise the USD cost of owning land in SL for everyone.

So what you two are basically saying is...

Anyone who doesn't purchase land from you two can expect an immediate tier-increase on land purchased, as if they never heard of land resellers in SL? You mean, as in the way the purchasing of land was designed by LL?

That is a service you decide to provide, not one that is sanctioned by LL.

You can provide it based upon the profits you make from selling land, or you can not provide that service and see a small percentage of increase in profits. Land sales would then increase, hopefully, from your reputation as being "willing to help" when relocation/configuration of land is needed.

Either way, you are in the land business to make money.

The people purchasing your land, at least 85% of them, are not. Those people inherit the tier fees immediately and go happily on their way.

And if your examples are the case in point, shouldn't your land be listed not at the going rate of land, but at actually reduced land rates for land in that area?

I think it would make it more difficult for people to monopolize and manipulate the auction system. I think people would be more judicious on which land parcels they bid on in auction, especially when they take into account any additional land tier. I think a larger percentage of people bidding on auctions would win a parcel. I think the number of land speculators and developers would grow, there would be more competition in the land resale market and land prices would be more competitive. And this would all still be true when the Lindens decide to get out of the business of auctioning smaller parcels.

When a person wins an auction -- they own that land. Their ownership of it shouldn't be dependent on whether they decide later to claim it or not. They bought it. That how auctions are supposed to work. The ability to keep an exisiting land plot in case a bid is not won can either cost, in one extreme, tiering up to cover both plots if they win or, in the other extreme, some extra time to work out an arrangement to free up land tier inworld through a service or friend with extra tier.

Schwanson, I believe this entire twenty-something page thread is here because your Worst Case Scenario has already started....

After all, at some point, I remember the arguement being made that the only reason we're getting land at the current rate is because it is all being bought up by <name withheld> - and without that person, there just wouldn't be enough buyers to justify the current rollout rate. (And somehow, that was supposed to be a reason for their actions, though the logic certainly escapes me!)

Someone mentioned LL has a set amount of land they roll out in relation to population growth. Perhaps Haney or some other LL employee can fill us in on the details?

What I hear you saying is your willing to sell to "joe" a chunk of land say 512m2 in a new region and take the 512m2 off his hands at a price you feel is reaonable. The land tier difference per month for a plot of land 512m2 and 2 plots of land both 512m2 is $3.00 US. I seriouly doubt your "service" nets you less than $3 on most transactions.

Lets not kid our selves.

When ppl ask me why there is no affordable land in SL I explain how the system is being abused or I point them to this thread.

I completly agree with Lynn and Chris. This is all pretty cut and dry and the only ppl who are against the immediate charge to their credit cards (who are manipulating the auctions 7 day rule) are the ppl who are frauding the system.

I knew there was a great deal of coruption going on I am glad it came to light.

Locks only keep honest ppl honest.

Cath

catherine,
are you participating in the same discussion as i am? it has been stated many times that the credit card is billed immediately and L$ are removed from the account immediately. you even posted about the immediacy when you mentioned your experience with the purchase of land in Ross. the only thing that you are given time to do is pick up your land.

after 7 days, if you have not picked up the land, LL takes it back and give you an 80% refund, or so they say. no one who has done this has posted about it to confirm this as far as i know. so you are still out 20%, which LL seems to be happy with.

in the service of a well regulated and difficult to manipulate market, i'd favour a 100 % penalty, but LL is better aware of what situations it's dealing with than we are.

i really don't understand how you end up back on page 1 with your rhetoric after every 20 posts of progress.

edit:
removing capitals, of course