Buying and Selling Land

Are you suggesting we look the other way when the land brokers take advantage of a loop hole? For fear of land prices going up?

I am saying if they can't afford what they are buying then dont buy it. If buying one more piece of property is going to put them in another land tier, that is their problem.

Why do they have to pass the cost on? Just buy less land and leave other land for everyone else to buy.

Hell no I am not for them increasing land costs to everyone else. Sounds to me like they dont know how to run a business. A succesful business does not opperate at a continued loss. If they cant afford the tier costs without passing the bill to all other buyers then they have no business putting in a bid for land they cannot afford when the bid was placed. Period.

PS I have had some land for sale for the last week at below market, its not moving. That tells me the land brokers are feeling the pinch.

No, please read my post again. I don't *hate* those in the land baroning business.

My final words said it all.

Play by the rules, and not by the loopholes. The 7-day grace period on auctioned land is a loophole that hopefully Linden's will fix.

There is absolutely *no difference* between "temporary tiering up" to help out a friend, purchasing land from a seller and/or picking up land from auction.

Land is land -- it doesn't matter if it's given to you, purchased from a seller, won at auction or found public.

Pick it up -- it's your's -- along with the responsible tiering fees.

Er, but Catherine, what if they can very much afford it with a slight loss in profit margin? The idea that a business shouldn't operate if they have to pass costs on to the consumer is interesting.

Lynn, i guess i just disagree; I consider it a feature that is useful for land traders and their business, linden labs, and the final consumer.

FYI, there are other methods that have recently been pointed out here .

...back to staring off into space...

-Meiyo

lol the method of "buying less land"? =P I think Catherine already pointed that one out. Regardless of how much land you may buy - if you go over your tier by even 1m2 as a land trader (or anyone with at least 1 sim of tier) then you have no option but to raise by a full sim, to 2, 3, etc. There is no half sim option.

The seven day rule for land won at auction should remain in effect. Shortening this would hurt the end user purchasing through auction greater than the land baron. Shortening that time would actually assist the barons in the auction process. End users may not be willing to bid on parcels that end just prior to their tier dates. They also would now have to pay double tier, as they would not have adequate time to sell their prior land holdings. In addition, if for whatever reason they can not be inworld to claim their won parcel within 24 hours, they can't bid. This in effect leaves less competition for those whose business it is to be at the auctions daily.

I DO NOT say this for personal gain, I almost always claim quickly (get it on the market faster). I understand the intentions of the people that want it shortened, but beleive it will do much more harm than good.

I agree with Lynn.

Eliminate the loopholes in the present auction system.

Sorry Dek. but there is a difference.

Some people tier up to help out friends on a temporary basis -- they're doing this as a favour -- or when newbies first start out in SL -- they don't understand groups, giving land to a group, the 10% discount, etc. Many, *many* people have gone from the $25 to $75 for just one month -- for just three minutes of holding land because of a mistake.

On the other hand, those in the land resell business do know all about grouping land, they know when their tier charge is due. The 7-day period allows you to hold off that purchase -- where in other instances, there is no time -- it has to be done today, not tomorrow, not five days from now. Because of that -- end-users pay for the temporary tier fee.

Land reselling is a business. It's evident by your post and also by Anshe's post "that it isn't worth tiering up another sim fee ($195) for the five days remaining on your monthly charge." (paraphrased)

Tell that to the ones who have tiered up immediately. Tell that to anyone who has purchased land and been charged the tier fees immediately afterwards. Those individuals do not have an option of "squirming around" for five, six or seven days on their monthly charge. They take the tier charge -- they have no choice. None.

While a land baron was recently permitted to waggle, squirm and dodge $600 in tier fees -- the *regular* players are hit immediately. I know individuals who have written LL explaining the temporary tiering up of their account, explaining that it was a mistake, explaining that they wanted to protect the land until additional group members could put additional land into the group, written to explain that it was a mistake when group land was first introduced and they weren't sure about the tiering charges thinking *they could wait 24-hours* and still reduce their tier with no additional charge -- and the only reply from the Linden's was....

"Sorry schmuck, you tiered, you pay. $75 for those 3 minutes of land holding."

"But... but... it was only for three minutes... He took the land right back after he exchanged with someone else, I was only being *helpful..."

"Sorry schmuck, you tiered, you pay. $75 for those 3 minutes of land holding."

Now, please explain to me why anyone who is smart enough to do business in SL reselling land, knows the cost of land tiers, understands grouping to help alleviate the monthly tier charge, and also knows when their tier fees are due should have *any reason* not to pay that tier fee.

If they're smart enough to do all of the above -- then they are definitely smart enough to know when to bid, not to bid, what land will be available, what land won at auctions will affect their tier on *what day* and when to hold off bidding until some of the existing land is sold to lower their tier.

Mmmm, something I have to add: The 7 day grace period for claiming auction land also serves to even playing field between American and European land broker.

Since most auction close at 5 am European time, land broker in Europe relies on proxy bidding. This means there is no way to control how much land you actually buy. You can not simply stop bidding when tier is full because you are sleeping. So one day you win almost nothing, next day you win ton of land. With grace period this all evens out. Without grace period, land broker in Europe can wake up in the morning with very bad surprise!

If I look at past 7 days, there is one day I won more land at auction than during ALL other days combined. This was when I was asleep. The days I won too little land I was not able stay online and raise bids to fill my tier. The day I won too much land I was sleeping as well and could not lower bids or stop bidding. 7 day period allows me to even out those daily fluctuation during the week. If you switch to 24h you only hit European traders, while American traders can easily prevent buying too little / too much on an auction by staying online and adjusting their bid during auction is going on.

So, if you want specifically grief Anshe Chung, while not hitting most other active land trader, I strongly recommend you keep lobbying for removal of this feature

Ummm, I don't think that hepled.

Anshe, with all due respect -- you've already "skirted" and "wiggled" out of $600 land tier fees knowningly last month. Your cries are really falling on deaf ears.

The only reason you want this seven-day grace period to continue is for your own reasons -- it has nothing to do with your European time zone. You know the margins, you know the selling rate of land -- and you also know all the information in my posts above and are intelligent enough to figure out in advance (that's why they call it speculation!) what you can afford and what you can't afford.

I have no interest in griefing anyone.

It's a poorly implemented feature and continues to make the SL land auction system wide open to manipulation and in some cases abuse. LL continues to look amateurish (possibly unprofessional?) for choosing to ignore the well documented situations where the auction system has been manipulated.

I have, on mutual agreement with Linden Lab employee, been charged undisclosed amount of money for what you call "skirting" and "wiggling" of last month. This charge occured to my credit card before the topic became big on the forums.

So, please do me favor, and stop swinging your $600 hate and envy club. I might be only person here who ever actually pay money for delay in auction claiming, and did so as part of mutual agreement as no rule for this exist yet.

sort of like how record companies don't pay artists royalties (as a matter of course) till the artists sue, and then settle for half. Still not exactly a charming endorsement of the current system

It's not a $600 hate and envy club, Anshe.

You were caught trying to bypass the system. You were caught thinking LL was slacking on checking when unclaimed auction land was picked up.

You were caught trying to make LL look foolish, you were caught trying to bypass tier fees to increase your monthly profit, and you were caught doing it red-handed.

It's not envy. It's not hate.

If anything, it's making you play by the rules. Rules which you chose to ignore.

EDITED TO ADD:

btw, Anshe -- there *is* a rule. The rule states that *any* unclaimed land after 7-days goes back into auction. I know you know this rule, because in another thread you mentioned several other land resellers who did not pick up their land and allowed it to be returned to auction with a restocking fee.

You also knew that rule.

Please don't say there are no rules for this situation. You were given an extension of the 7-day grace period AND still permitted to pick up the 3+ sims of land without any additional penalities.

As far as the lax enforcement of the 7 day rule that has been commented on many times, Linden Lab did not ignore it. Once it was pointed out privately in detail to them about the scale at which it was occuring, they moved very quickly to address it, and have since changed the policy and are working on ways to automate their enforcement of it (while currently manually doing so). Yes, there are problems with the auctions, but LL is not ignoring them - it is just not always publicly apparent what has occured.

Edit - btw, yes it is their responsibility to stop any exploitation they are made aware of. However, the blame falls not on LL, but on the person exploiting the system. It comes back to the adage that just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. I am sure when LL put the auctions in place and created the 7 day grace period as a convenience for players, they did not anticipate that it would be used on a large scale to avoid paying tier fees. No matter how strict of a system you put into place, people will always find a way to game it. In the end, the critcism and blame belongs on those who seek to exploit a system, not the people who made the exploitable system. It amazes me how often people overlook that.

"I have, on mutual agreement with Linden Lab employee"

WTF!

Painting an apple with an orange can of spray paint does not make it taste like an orange. The dynamics of auctions and inworld purchases can be different from LL's own POV. And that's what determines their policies, not what may appear "fair" or "not fair" to different people. Of course, pressure may cause them to change their POV.

That said, I generally agree with Cris -- it is the actions of a very few people who abused the system that wrecked it and created a sense of injustice that has damaged the reputation of all residents who engage in land speculation. The fact that the biggest abuser should still be posing as a victim indicates that this person will continue to take advantage of system weaknesses where possible -- and further tarnish land speculation and development. Unfortunately, that means a stronger system of oversight and discipline may be necessary -- and practically speaking, that means more rules and less freedom of action for others.

Don't blame that on the critics. Blame it on those persons who take advantage of the circumstances without thinking of the consequences for themselves and everyone else.

Yes it is amazing that people see things differently.

It is really pathetic how some people here keep hitting on dead horse. How you come up with 3 sims? That is nonsense. I don't think I ever had more than 1/2 region worth of land older than 7 day. I did have a lot of unclaimed land at some stage, but most has always been within 7 day limit. But even if it would be 20 sim: none of your business!

Reality is that my credit card was charged 3 digit US$ amount extra, and that more than cover any leeway with land claim enforcement. So now move on and spill your vernom elsewhere. It is getting very very old. Unbelievable how some people here have nothing better to do than count other people's tier fees. You really need get one life!

thanks for helping to clear all of those misconceptions and vaguaries up for us

For the love of GAH!

You had... Vail as a completely UNCLAIMED sim for well over seven days. That was just one piece of land that added up to almost 3 sims worth of unclaimed land over seven days old. Land that *should have been returned to auction with a restocking fee hitting your credit card.*

Should I also mention the land in Crescent? How about that parcel in Bragg? No? Not enough? How about Eaton?

It was also documented that you picked up and claimed land in the new lakes area WELL BEFORE the other winning auctions of snow land and mountain ranges. Again, you *chose* which land to pick up knowing full well which would sell, you picked and chose which auction winnings you would take when -- and knowing full well that you could have lost that land to the existing rule of "7-days to claim or it's returned to auction."

So please, stop the pretext of being "innocent" and not knowing where your unclaimed land was and how much unclaimed auction winning land you *chose* not to pick up because of tier fees. You were damn smart enough to know to bypass those fees for five days or more to *not* tier up an additional sim tier or two monthly charges.

Because in one breath you tell us how smart you as as a "business girl" and then in the next, you try to act dumb and innocent in not knowing what land you did win in auction that went unclaimed.

It doesn't work. It never did. And it never will.

And it is the "community's" business to notice and report unclaimed auction land. Holding back three sims worth of land can and does manipulate the price of land.

Again, you got caught redhanded trying to manipulate LL, the auction land claiming process, and stating almost defiantly which land you would choose and which land you decided to let sit while running your SL "business."

It's not personal. It's only everyone's business, Anshe. SL is a community and when someone intentionally tries to cheat the community -- everyone gets involved.

cris, merwan,
that's fine and dandy, we can go ahead and blame exploiters but as you can see in this most immediate example, it was not by blaming exploiters of LL's lax land regulation that solved the problem but by demanding LL to do its job to stave off land price manipulation.

if people can not understand schwanson's points on how the 7 day system is a benefit to the community, and the neither of us endorse it for personal benefit, then there is nothing more that can be said.

discussing old news on some land traders skirting tier payments is pointless to this discussion. LL has closed that exploit as it was their responsibility to do so.

I don't see how you can call something "skirting" that you paid for.

J -- it's quite simple.

Then give the 7-day grace period on tiering up to everyone -- those who purchase land, those who hold land for friends, those who make mistakes when creating groups -- and those who rush to pick up their first land in the auctions.

Stop with the "Gee, we're really sorry there, SL'ian, but by your own stupid clicking, you tiered up for two minutes so pay us $75, or we'll suspend your account."

Land is land, tiers are tied to the amount of land you *own.*

Winning land in an auction should automatically affect your tier -- without claiming it. You've already clicked and submitted the bid -- proxy or otherwise. It would seriously stop all those "fake winning bids" by AV's who never had any intention of picking up the land.

Land is an asset in SL. It's one of the biggest assets in SL. It should be charged accordingly and evenly across the board to each and every player.

It's not fair that by winning an auction that you have the right to bypass seven days of tiering fees and claiming the land -- when the person who might be purchasing the land from you lost that very same parcel in an auction -- and THEY are penalized twice -- first by the losing the auction to someone who will sit on it for seven days, and then by the immediate tier charge the buyer incurs on purchasing land.

There are two ways to "buy" land in SL:

If you click on land and purchase it from a reseller, you're immediately tiered and charged.

If you win an auction, you are basically purchasing land from LL -- and the same rule should apply to your tiering costs.

It should not matter from whom you are purchasing the land -- it's a sales transaction and should be tiered immediately.